Preterism versus Futurism

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JohnDB.

Please make your case here. Use scripture.

I believe in a form of partial preterism in that I believe most of Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled but the crucial portions of Matthew 24 and 25, such as the sun, moon, and stars events, are yet in the future. I don't rely solely on Matthew 24 and 25, however. I also use Mark 13 and Luke 21. All three passages, in my opinion, should be harmonized because all three are God's Word and therefore all three are true. Thus, the REAL Olivet Discourse is the UNION of the three accounts.

However, I also believe that it's not enough to attempt to harmonize these accounts in the English. Rather, I believe they must be harmonized in the Greek FIRST, and THEN they can be translated into English.

Anytime that the words "ye" and "you" are used (in the KJV), Yeshua` was speaking DIRECTLY to those who were actually listening to His prophecy while sitting or standing on Har haZeitiym, the Mount of Olives. Therefore, any instructions that He gave them were to be fulfilled within their lifetime. When the pronouns become more general or the statements become more nebulous, then Yeshua` is extending His prophecy to His brothers and sisters in the future, whether they are brothers and sisters as Jewish relatives or as those who become His relatives through God's power to graft them into the Olive Tree of His Kingdom, the Isra'el as it was under David and Shlomoh. Therefore, He bounces back and forth as His vision changes from the present to the distant future and then periodically snaps back to the present throughout His discourse.

So, for instance, when Yeshua` said, "Take heed that no man deceive YOU. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many," He was speaking directly to those students who were listening to His prophecy. The fulfillment of this prophecy would be in their lifetimes, and Yeshua` was warning them that many would claim to be the Jewish Messiah in the first century.

However, when Yeshua` went on to say, "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places," He was speaking of the many years ahead. It takes TIME for a nation to rise against another nation or a kingdom to rise against another kingdom! This doesn't happen overnight, and it most likely will not happen in a single lifespan! Famines take time! Pestilences take time! Earthquakes don't happen all at once, and these, He said, were just the "beginning of sorrows!"

Then, He bounced back to His present time and focused on His listeners once again, "Then shall they deliver YOU up to be afflicted, and shall kill YOU: and YE shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

However, just as quickly as He focused on His listeners, He allows His vision to stray to the future, again! "And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved (rescued). And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Then, Yeshua` was back to His present again: "When YE therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then (YOU) let him which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (YOU) Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither (YOU) let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray YE that YOUR flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Therefore, this "tribulation" is not to be found in the future; it was to have been found in the past! HOWEVER, it would only have been found even in the past, IF THEY DIDN'T PRAY AS YESHUA` INSTRUCTED THEM TO PRAY! They prayed as they were instructed to do, and the GREAT tribulation they were warned about was AVOIDED!

He's been giving an indication that He is extending it to the future, now He leaps forward: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Here, He was promising them a "tribulation," a "thlipsis," a "pressure," a "burden," or an "oppression," just not a HUGE one if they prayed that God would spare them from having to run in the rainy season or on the Shabbat! Who but a Jew would CARE if they had to run on a Shabbat?! It's just another day to a Gentile! Yeshua` has just promised His listeners that no matter how long it takes, the days of pressure would be interspersed with days of relative peace and mitigation of the pressure.

Then, He bounced back to His present, yet again: "Then if any man shall say unto you, 'Lo, here is Christ,' or 'There'; believe it not!" Don't believe someone who tells you, "Look! Here's the Messiah!"

Then, He goes off into the future for a little bit: "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

But, then He's back to His present: "Behold, I have told you before (it happens). Wherefore if they shall say unto you, 'Behold, he is in the desert'; go not forth: 'Behold, he is in the secret chambers'; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."

He has now subtly slipped back into the future: "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and thy shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

And so on...

Thus, there is no one point where Yeshua` changes perspective from His present to His future; there are MANY such points, but they are detectable by the pronouns and verbs.

I also find a gap in the Scriptures. Oh, it's not between the 69th and the 70th sevens of Dani'el 9:24-27, but it is found in the preceding chapter, Matthew 23:37-39:

Matthew 23:37-39

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

KJV

In so saying, Yeshua` fulfilled Dani'el 9:27 and "left them desolate until the consummation," and it won't end UNTIL they can say, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD" (a quotation from Psalm 118:26). Here's the verse in its context:

Psalm 118:22-26

22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

24 This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.

25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

KJV

Here's a few points about this passage: First, it contains the prophecy of Yeshua`s rejection in verse 22.

Second, the Hebrew words translated "Save now" in verse 25 are "Y'hosha` na!" from which the Greek transliteration "Hosanna!" comes.

Third, the Hebrew phrase translated "Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD" is "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH," and it literally means "Happy the-comer in-name of-YHVH." Interestingly, the way that Isra'elis say "welcome" is "baruwk haba'!" It is posted (in plural) at all the airports and seaports in Isra'el!

Thus, what Yeshua` was telling them was that He would not be returning until they could WELCOME Him back as the Comer on the authority (in the name) of YAH! He would not be returning until they could WELCOME Him back as YAH'S MESSIAH!

For other reasons that I will be happy to share in future posts, I believe that YESHUA` is the one who fulfills Dani'el 9:27, not some "antichrist" person! The bottom line is this:

I believe that HALF of the 70th seven is already fulfilled, but not the last three and a half years! I also believe that the "tribulation" or "pressure" is a WHOLE lot longer than a mere 7 years! I believe that it started in the first century and has continued up to the present and will continue until the Messiah returns. That's why I can believe that the sun, moon, and stars events listed above in Matthew 24:29 is yet in our future and still see that much of Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled in the lifetimes of His listeners.

That's my view of partial preterism (if it must be labeled).

[Bold Believer]

What I believe about the millennium is that it is the fulfillment of Isaiah 2. It was a literal period of time, but not exactly 1000 years. Christian influence held sway world wide. It was pre-dominant. We call our very date system Anno Domini: The Year of our Lord. Christian thought caused much good to come about in the world. Many great things happened as a result of Christian thought and Christian influence. Nations were converted to Christian government. (No, not everyone was saved, but they did fall under the influence of those who were.) The gospel went out unto the whole world and the glory of the nations came into belief in Jesus.

Much of that is a bit exaggerated.

Christianit is not the majority religion in the world and never has been. A lot of good did come from Christian thought, but there has been a crescendoing of good and evil for just as long. Nations were converted to "Chrisitian" government, but did no necessarily act "Christian." When Christianity held political sway there was just as much sin and corruption as in nonChristian governments. Many nonBelievers held office in "Christian" governments.

The millennial predictions of Isaiah bear no resemblance to any given in time in world history despite your attempts to force part of history into the mold of Isaiah 2.

As for Anno Domini, that dating system was not even in existence until the 6th century and was not commonly used until the 9th century.

There is a huge difference between majority and PRE-EMINENT.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

The Church is the mountain of the LORD's house. A city set on a hill. Did Christianity become the pre-eminent predominant religion after 70 AD? Absolutely. IF something is irrelevant, you don't persecute it, you let it die of itself, but if it's like kudzu, you do your level best to get rid of it before it covers everything. The Gospel went out and Satan couldn't stop it from bearing fruit. And that is what the millennium was all about. Bringing in the Gentiles to the House of the One True and Living God.

God clearly put the church at the top of the heap. It is a beacon, the standard of Jesse. It has the only truth. That truth may be contained in earthen vessels, BUT IT'S STILL TRUTH.

And the nations flowed to the message of the Gospel, the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for sins. The LORD taught the Gentiles His ways and led them on his paths through His chosen instrument: The gathered together ones of His Church. We are His Body, He is the head. He sits at the right hand of the Father and that is where HE RULES FROM. Not the earthly Jerusalem, THE HEAVENLY ONE.

Hebrews 12:22-24 tells us: But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

We have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the Living God. HAVE COME. Past tense. You ARE there.

The prophecies only make no sense if you over-literalize them. Pre-millennialists of nearly every stripe are famous for hyper-literalizing Scripture. That's why every time the military comes out with a new helicopter, they run off to Revelation to see if it fits the prophecy. They're hung up on wooden literalism.

[Guest shiloh357]

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

The Church is the mountain of the LORD's house. A city set on a hill.

Yeah... You are really reaching for that one, lol.

Did Christianity become the pre-eminent predominant religion after 70 AD? Absolutely.

No, it didn't. There were many other religions in the world, much larger than Christianity and always have been for the last two thousand years.

IF something is irrelevant, you don't persecute it, you let it die of itself, but if it's like kudzu, you do your level best to get rid of it before it covers everything.

Christians were not persecuted because it was feared that it would take over everything. Christians were persecuted because they would not call Caesar "Lord" and they would not sacrifice to the imperial cult. They were often used as scapegoats by corrupt roman leaders who needed to a way to cover their own misdeeds. Christians were convenient fodder for that purpose.

The Gospel went out and Satan couldn't stop it from bearing fruit. And that is what the millennium was all about. Bringing in the Gentiles to the House of the One True and Living God.

No, that is not what the millennium is about. There is reason to believe that the millennium is in the past. In fact given the biblical description of the millennium, if it has already happened, it was the biggest failure in all of human history.

God clearly put the church at the top of the heap. It is a beacon, the standard of Jesse. It has the only truth. That truth may be contained in earthen vessels, BUT IT'S STILL TRUTH.

You have some interesting notions, but it appears that you are letting your theology drive your interpretation. You are trying to force the church into millennium passages that have nothing to do with the church whatsoever.

And the nations flowed to the message of the Gospel, the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ for sins. The LORD taught the Gentiles His ways and led them on his paths through His chosen instrument: The gathered together ones of His Church. We are His Body, He is the head. He sits at the right hand of the Father and that is where HE RULES FROM. Not the earthly Jerusalem, THE HEAVENLY ONE.

But the church is take the Gospel to the world. It is not something the world flows to at all. In fact, Paul states that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to the world. It is something the world recoils from in fear and/or disgust. The Gospel of the cross is an offense and a scandal to the world, but we are still commanded to go and preach it. They do not come to the church, the church goes to them.

Hebrews 12:22-24 tells us: But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

We have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the Living God. HAVE COME. Past tense. You ARE there.

But that is not an eschatological passage. You don't have the right to plug noneschatological passages into places where they don't belong.

The prophecies only make no sense if you over-literalize them. Pre-millennialists of nearly every stripe are famous for hyper-literalizing Scripture. That's why every time the military comes out with a new helicopter, they run off to Revelation to see if it fits the prophecy. They're hung up on wooden literalism.

Over literalize??? Literalism means that a passage is understood in the light that the author has in view. That is basic hermeneutcs 101. It can't mean now what it didn't mean before. You cannot plug the church into OT passages that have nothing to say about the church.

And just for the sake of clarification: "wooden literalism" is better understood as "face-value." Face value would mean that when Jesus says "I am the door" that Jesus is a piece of wood with a knob and hinges. Biblical literalism means that when the authors are speaking in concrete terms we interpret them in the manner they intend to be understod. If they use figures of speech, we look for the literal truth behind those figures.

[rollinTHUNDER]

I believe in a form of partial preterism in that I believe most of Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled but the crucial portions of Matthew 24 and 25, such as the sun, moon, and stars events, are yet in the future.

Hmmmm, in the other thread you denied being a preterist. Now the cat is out of the bag.

Very wishy-washy my friend.

[Guest shiloh357]

I believe in a form of partial preterism in that I believe most of Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled but the crucial portions of Matthew 24 and 25, such as the sun, moon, and stars events, are yet in the future.

Hmmmm, in the other thread you denied being a preterist. Now the cat is out of the bag.

Very wishy-washy my friend.

Not really. He denied being a full preterist. Preterism and partial preterism are not the same thing.

[Floatingaxe]

Preterism, whether full or partial makes a mockery of God's word because it says, arbitrarily, that the rules and markers and measurements for interpreting prophecy suddenly change, for no discernible reason. God gives us prophecy for a very specific reason, to prove that He is, in fact, God, as Isaiah tells us:

Isaiah 46:9-11 9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. 11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.

God gave each one of us, as believers, a distinct advantage over everyone else on this earth because the future is not a mystery to us. We know what is going to happen. God has also given us very clear and precise examples as to how His prophecies through the Prophets and Apostles is fulfilled. That is literally, as they are written in definable, provable, witness-able ways and in precise detail, as written. The freeing of Israel from Egyptian captivity: Exactly as written. The exiles of Israel: Exactly as written. The first coming of Christ: Exactly as written, right down to the minutest detail. The destruction of the Temple: Exactly as written. So we know how future prophecy will be fulfilled: Exactly as written.

Preterism, no matter which form it appears in just changes biblical interpretation rules, puts things in the past as already fulfilled when they have not been and severely allegorizes or spiritualizes scripture when there is no reason to do so, beyond the wish for the scriptures to fit one's eschatology. We are able to prove prophecy which has already come true by being able to test what happened with what scripture has told us would happen. Preterism takes that prototype which has been followed by every single fulfilled prophecy we have and tosses it out the window. You cannot prove what preterism alleges.

Amen!

[rollinTHUNDER]

I believe in a form of partial preterism in that I believe most of Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled but the crucial portions of Matthew 24 and 25, such as the sun, moon, and stars events, are yet in the future.

Hmmmm, in the other thread you denied being a preterist. Now the cat is out of the bag.

Very wishy-washy my friend.

Not really. He denied being a full preterist. Preterism and partial preterism are not the same thing.

He denied being a preterist of any sort. The words (full and partial) were not used at all. Of course, now we know he's one or the other.

[Guest shiloh357]

I believe in a form of partial preterism in that I believe most of Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled but the crucial portions of Matthew 24 and 25, such as the sun, moon, and stars events, are yet in the future.

Hmmmm, in the other thread you denied being a preterist. Now the cat is out of the bag.

Very wishy-washy my friend.

Not really. He denied being a full preterist. Preterism and partial preterism are not the same thing.

He denied being a preterist of any sort. The words (full and partial) were not used at all. Of course, now we know he's one or the other.

He has always admitted to be a partial preterist for as long as I can remember him participating on this. He denied being a preterist. He did not deny being preterist of any sorth.

[Bold Believer]

I believe in a form of partial preterism in that I believe most of Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled but the crucial portions of Matthew 24 and 25, such as the sun, moon, and stars events, are yet in the future.

Hmmmm, in the other thread you denied being a preterist. Now the cat is out of the bag.

Very wishy-washy my friend.

Not really. He denied being a full preterist. Preterism and partial preterism are not the same thing.

He denied being a preterist of any sort. The words (full and partial) were not used at all. Of course, now we know he's one or the other.

He has always admitted to be a partial preterist for as long as I can remember him participating on this. He denied being a preterist. He did not deny being preterist of any sorth.

In OT figurative 'collapsing universe' verses, the sun, moon and stars are political figures/governments. When you see verses like that, they're not speaking literally. If they were, that would contradict 2 Peter 3:10 which tells us that the entire earth and all of its works will be burned up at the great day of the LORD. John is merely getting from the Holy Spirit the language that he gave to other prophets to use in the past. Very logical, IMO. The readers being familiar with those verses would understand just what the writer meant, one more argument that the majority of the book was written to the Believers of the 1st Century. (Not that it has NO application to us, mind you, after all, Rev 20 tells us all we need to know about how we will be surrounded and then rescued by fire from heaven.)

I've explained my end time position so many times its pitiful. I refuse to continue to do so. If you want to know what I believe, go look at some of my past posts. It's laid out very well.

[Guest shiloh357]

In OT figurative 'collapsing universe' verses, the sun, moon and stars are political figures/governments. When you see verses like that, they're not speaking literally.

I am not sure what verses you are referring to off hand, but assuming you are correct, a more accurate way of saying it is that they are not to be taken at face value (IF they are using figurative language). But until I know which verses you are talking about, I cannot say for sure.

If they were, that would contradict 2 Peter 3:10 which tells us that the entire earth and all of its works will be burned up at the great day of the LORD. John is merely getting from the Holy Spirit the language that he gave to other prophets to use in the past. Very logical, IMO.

That may or may not be so, depending on which passages you are referring to, once again. They would have to be studied hermeneutically to determine the intent of the author. The READER does not have the right to say what is or is not figurative.

It is important to point out that "figurative" doesn't necessarily mean "non literal." That is because there is a literal meaning and intent behind the figure of speech or symbol. So it is meant to be taken literally by means of understanding the literal object the author has in view.

The readers being familiar with those verses would understand just what the writer meant, one more argument that the majority of the book was written to the Believers of the 1st Century. (Not that it has NO application to us, mind you, after all, Rev 20 tells us all we need to know about how we will be surrounded and then rescued by fire from heaven.)

Actually, no. Revelation 20 is after the bodily return of Jesus. Jesus is on the earth in Revelation 20. The rescue has already happened.