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Preterism versus Futurism


JohnD

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Hello guys,

Let me say up front I am a full Preterist. I believe all prophecy even the event known as the second coming of Christ has already happened. I'm not wishy washy on the subject I'm strong in my convictions. I use to be a dispy, but having seen the error of my ways I'm a proud full Preterist now.

For me the leap from partial Preterist to full Preterist happened when I realized there is no honest way to read the N.T. testament and not realize that Christ and all the Apostles were speaking of a first century return of Christ in judgment against Jerusalem.

I believe the bible is inerrant and inspired so if its writers believed in a first century return of Christ then I needed to align my beliefs with them and not twist their teachings to fit my beliefs.

Reading the bible as a Preterist makes it come alive in a whole new way. It makes sense like never before. For example, in Matt 10:23 when Jesus tells His apostles they wouldn't cover the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes you can accept this verse straight up without having to torture and twist it to make it fit preconceived notions of a future coming.

Logos1

What evidence do you have for the Mt of Olives splitting in two from East to West forming a great valley with half the mountain moving north and and half moving south. On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

Isa 11:6 -9 The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them, The cow will feed with the bear, their your will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, and the young child put his hand into the vipers nest. They will neither harm or destroy on all my hold mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

Logos1, who are you in the Lord. For you cannot be included in the Bride of Christ, you cannot be part of the Church. For they according to full/hyper preterists, all past. Who are you then? The NT was written for the Church, the saints, the believers in Christ; so the NT cannot be written to the full preterist. You have no hope in our Lord.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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Hello guys,

Let me say up front I am a full Preterist. I believe all prophecy even the event known as the second coming of Christ has already happened. I'm not wishy washy on the subject I'm strong in my convictions. I use to be a dispy, but having seen the error of my ways I'm a proud full Preterist now.

For me the leap from partial Preterist to full Preterist happened when I realized there is no honest way to read the N.T. testament and not realize that Christ and all the Apostles were speaking of a first century return of Christ in judgment against Jerusalem.

I believe the bible is inerrant and inspired so if its writers believed in a first century return of Christ then I needed to align my beliefs with them and not twist their teachings to fit my beliefs.

Reading the bible as a Preterist makes it come alive in a whole new way. It makes sense like never before. For example, in Matt 10:23 when Jesus tells His apostles they wouldn't cover the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes you can accept this verse straight up without having to torture and twist it to make it fit preconceived notions of a future coming.

Logos1

What evidence do you have for the Mt of Olives splitting in two from East to West forming a great valley with half the mountain moving north and and half moving south. On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

Isa 11:6 -9 The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them, The cow will feed with the bear, their your will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, and the young child put his hand into the vipers nest. They will neither harm or destroy on all my hold mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

Logos1, who are you in the Lord. For you cannot be included in the Bride of Christ, you cannot be part of the Church. For they according to full/hyper preterists, all past. Who are you then? The NT was written for the Church, the saints, the believers in Christ; so the NT cannot be written to the full preterist. You have no hope in our Lord.

In Christ

Montana Marv

I would add also a query concerning when the Euphrates dried up! I'd like to know!

Revelation 16:12

Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance.

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Shalom, Bold Believer.

I believe in a form of partial preterism in that I believe most of Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled but the crucial portions of Matthew 24 and 25, such as the sun, moon, and stars events, are yet in the future.

Hmmmm, in the other thread you denied being a preterist. Now the cat is out of the bag.

:noidea: Very wishy-washy my friend. :noidea:

Not really. He denied being a full preterist. Preterism and partial preterism are not the same thing.

He denied being a preterist of any sort. The words (full and partial) were not used at all. Of course, now we know he's one or the other.

He has always admitted to be a partial preterist for as long as I can remember him participating on this. He denied being a preterist. He did not deny being preterist of any sorth.

In OT figurative 'collapsing universe' verses, the sun, moon and stars are political figures/governments. When you see verses like that, they're not speaking literally. If they were, that would contradict 2 Peter 3:10 which tells us that the entire earth and all of its works will be burned up at the great day of the LORD. John is merely getting from the Holy Spirit the language that he gave to other prophets to use in the past. Very logical, IMO. The readers being familiar with those verses would understand just what the writer meant, one more argument that the majority of the book was written to the Believers of the 1st Century. (Not that it has NO application to us, mind you, after all, Rev 20 tells us all we need to know about how we will be surrounded and then rescued by fire from heaven.)

I've explained my end time position so many times its pitiful. I refuse to continue to do so. If you want to know what I believe, go look at some of my past posts. It's laid out very well.

Wow. That's really out there. First, the sun, moon, and stars prophecies are JUST that; prophecies about the sun, moon, and stars, not "political figures/governments!" Who do you think you are to state that such prophecies aren't literal?! 2 Peter 3:10 is also literal and speaks not about the "entire earth" but the SURFACE of the earth and mankind's "accomplishments."

While I am a partial preterist, I am not a FULL preterist. (Thank you, rollinTHUNDER, for making it clear on my behalf.) Therefore, I do NOT agree with you that these prophecies are about the first century! How could that be since the sun did NOT turn black as sackcloth of goat's hair, the moon did NOT become red as blood, and the stars did NOT fall from the sky as untimely figs? We KNOW that such events will occur yet in the future, and that is why there are the opening of the sixth and seventh seals, and the first five shofar blasts! We KNOW this has to be in the future because we have absolutely NOTHING in history of such events happening, and you'd think someone somewhere would have said SOMETHING about such events if they had already occurred! Furthermore, when prophecies are fulfilled in Scripture, we have EVIDENCE that such fulfillments are LITERAL! EVERY ONE of the prophecies about the Messiah's first coming were fulfilled LITERALLY! Why should the end-times prophecies be any different?!

No, I may have been labeled a "partial preterist" in the past, but I am COMPLETELY a futurist when it comes to the fulfillment of prophecy. NONE of them, IMO, should be allegorized away!

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Full preterists believe that Satan is bound. His brand of evil would not be evident if he were. Instead, what we are seeing is a steady downward spiral of evil in the world---evidence that he is alive and well and living on planet Earth.

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If Preterism were true, the world should be getting better; but all we see is the world getting worse and worse.

What exactly are you attributing to Preterism that would require the world to be getting better? I need a little more meat on your answer to be able to reply to it.

I see you also failed to want to touch Matthew 10:23. It seems all the futurists in here just ask questions, but fail to be able to answer them.

Well

And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. Matthew 10:13-15

Dear One

Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;

And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. Matthew 10:16-18

I See

But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. Matthew 10:19-20

No Problem

And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. Matthew 10:21-22

Past

But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. Matthew 10:23-24

Present

Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Matthew 24:9-14

Or Future

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24:21-22

You

And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:13-17

Think?

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:14-17

____________

_________

______

___

The Amazing Bible

And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Revelation 13:13-18

Even When It Is Symbolic

Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. Daniel 7:23

It Is

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. Isaiah 45:17

The Literal Truth

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Romans 11:25-27

And Therein Lies The Rub For The Many Many Who Say They Claim The Name Of The Jew, Jesus Of Nazareth

And Yet With Every Breath Deny His Never-Ending Love For His Brothers The Children Of Jacob

While Willfully Missing The Whole Thrust Of The Holy Jewish Bible

Jesus Saves

Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 31:20

Even Israel

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. Jeremiah 31:31-36

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Guest shiloh357
Preterist are very much in the Lord—we aren’t left waiting for 2,000 years for the Lord to come back, but we are celebrating his triumphant return in 70 AD when he conquered sin death and reconciled us back into the presence of the Lord.

Actually Jesus conquered death and reconciled us back to God on the cross. The second coming has nothing to do with that. In addition the notion Jesus' 2nd coming was in 70 AD is nothing short of a sloppy handling of Scripture. The disciples were told that Jesus would return bodily just as he left. The New Testament teaches a bodily return of Jesus, not some "spiritual" return. The destruction of the Temple in seventy AD was not the return of Christ.

I see you also failed to want to touch Matthew 10:23. It seems all the futurists in here just ask questions, but fail to be able to answer them.

I didn't ask any questions. I stated facts. If Jesus has already returned and we are living in the New Heavens and the New Earth as preterists claim, it is the biggest failure in history.

As for Matt. 10:23... starting at v. 16, there is a sense in whcih Jesus is looking over the heads of his apostles and looking down through time to future disciples. So when Jesus is talking, he is in effect speaking to disciples of a later time period who would be persecuted.

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Hello guys,

Let me say up front I am a full Preterist. I believe all prophecy even the event known as the second coming of Christ has already happened. I'm not wishy washy on the subject I'm strong in my convictions. I use to be a dispy, but having seen the error of my ways I'm a proud full Preterist now.

For me the leap from partial Preterist to full Preterist happened when I realized there is no honest way to read the N.T. testament and not realize that Christ and all the Apostles were speaking of a first century return of Christ in judgment against Jerusalem.

I believe the bible is inerrant and inspired so if its writers believed in a first century return of Christ then I needed to align my beliefs with them and not twist their teachings to fit my beliefs.

Reading the bible as a Preterist makes it come alive in a whole new way. It makes sense like never before. For example, in Matt 10:23 when Jesus tells His apostles they wouldn't cover the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes you can accept this verse straight up without having to torture and twist it to make it fit preconceived notions of a future coming.

Logos1

What evidence do you have for the Mt of Olives splitting in two from East to West forming a great valley with half the mountain moving north and and half moving south. On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, in summer and in winter. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name.

Isa 11:6 -9 The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them, The cow will feed with the bear, their your will lie down together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox. The infant will play near the hole of the cobra, and the young child put his hand into the vipers nest. They will neither harm or destroy on all my hold mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.

Logos1, who are you in the Lord. For you cannot be included in the Bride of Christ, you cannot be part of the Church. For they according to full/hyper preterists, all past. Who are you then? The NT was written for the Church, the saints, the believers in Christ; so the NT cannot be written to the full preterist. You have no hope in our Lord.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Greetings Mountain Marv good to make your acquaintance,

As to your first question on the Mt. of Olives. It is quickly evident that this scripture is meant to be figurative not literal. Trying to literalize it runs into trouble very quickly. Check out Rev. 16:20 where it says “every island fled and the mountains disappeared”. How could Christ return to the Mr. of Olives if all the mountains have disappeared? This would make the bible contradict itself and we surely know it doesn’t do that if read properly. This is part of the beauty of full preterism it eliminates the sticky issues of futurism where the bible is forced to contradict itself.

Different Preterists interpret it differently just like different futurists have different beliefs. Another belief is this passage represents a metaphor for the 10 Legion which camped there leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. They did dig trenches and split the mount quite literally. They also launched 100 lb white stones into Jerusalem from there which would fulfill another prophecy about 100 lb hail stones falling on Jerusalem.

As for your Isaiah 11 quotes this we can be sure is not literal. You would enjoy reading Barnes commentary written in the 1800s and in the public domain and easily found on the internet regarding this passage. He details the literary technique used here which was common place at the time. Secular, pagan and Jewish writers used the long life metaphor and predator animals existing peacefully with their prey to represent a Golden Age which is what the bible is describing here—the New Covenant—a golden age. He gives specific examples of similar writings at the time. One secular writer had almost an identical passage about people living to be 100 years old. This would simply have been a literary technique that the audience would already be familiar with to describe a golden era.

Preterist are very much in the Lord—we aren’t left waiting for 2,000 years for the Lord to come back, but we are celebrating his triumphant return in 70 AD when he conquered sin death and reconciled us back into the presence of the Lord. Now when we die we can go straight to heaven and not to Sheol. We have victory in Christ—futurists are stuck waiting for an event that never comes.

I noticed that you didn’t have any answer to Matthew 10:23—this is very typical of futurists—the usually have to ignore this passage because they can’t explain it.

In Christ

Logos1

Logos1

I also noticed that you did not respond to: Who are you in Christ?, What is your purpose in Christ? Who gives you power?

Now to you question; Go up to verse 21 - Brother will betray to death, and a father his child, children shall rebel against their parents and have them put to death, all men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end shall be saved. Now if Christ was talking and referring only to His disciples as in verse 23; then only His disciples could be saved. No one else is included. You just left yourself out as everyone else.

Now if you want to go figurative - the "cities of Israel" may have a spiritual meaning in that it is referring to only Jerusalem and the surrounding area. and "when you are persecuted", this also has a spiritual meaning in that only Jews will be blessed by having persecution, they are the only ones who will go through trials and tribulations, and no one else; for Jesus is only speaking to His Jewish brothers here.

It is very typical of hyper preterists not to respond to: Who are you in Christ. Are you the offspring of the Bride and Christ? For you are not the Bride of Christ, you are also not a part of the Church, since they are long and gone in 70 AD. So Logos1 - Who/What are you in Christ Jesus. Do you have the HS, or was the HS taken out with the Bride in 70 AD. The 100 lb stones followed the Great earthquake, there was no great earthquake in 70 AD; so your timing is way off.

For the Isaiah quotes: These are prophecy, and for prophecy to be accurate, they must be true and to the point

Zech 14:4 - One that day His feet will stand on the Mt of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mt of Olives will split in two from east to west. This is literal, for it gives who will set his feet on this Mt.; It also gives location, the Mt of Olives east of Jerusalem, and it gives what will happen when His feet touch the Mt of Olives, it will be split. Your description is very pour, for you say it was blood which was flowing, but Zech 14:8 says that it is living water which flows out.

In Christ

Montana Marv

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In OT figurative 'collapsing universe' verses, the sun, moon and stars are political figures/governments. When you see verses like that, they're not speaking literally.

I am not sure what verses you are referring to off hand, but assuming you are correct, a more accurate way of saying it is that they are not to be taken at face value (IF they are using figurative language). But until I know which verses you are talking about, I cannot say for sure.

If they were, that would contradict 2 Peter 3:10 which tells us that the entire earth and all of its works will be burned up at the great day of the LORD. John is merely getting from the Holy Spirit the language that he gave to other prophets to use in the past. Very logical, IMO.

That may or may not be so, depending on which passages you are referring to, once again. They would have to be studied hermeneutically to determine the intent of the author. The READER does not have the right to say what is or is not figurative.

It is important to point out that "figurative" doesn't necessarily mean "non literal." That is because there is a literal meaning and intent behind the figure of speech or symbol. So it is meant to be taken literally by means of understanding the literal object the author has in view.

The readers being familiar with those verses would understand just what the writer meant, one more argument that the majority of the book was written to the Believers of the 1st Century. (Not that it has NO application to us, mind you, after all, Rev 20 tells us all we need to know about how we will be surrounded and then rescued by fire from heaven.)

Actually, no. Revelation 20 is after the bodily return of Jesus. Jesus is on the earth in Revelation 20. The rescue has already happened.

Collapsing universe verses are those where the Scripture reads that the stars will fall out of the sky, so forth and so on. There are a number of them and they are basically describing chaos of one kind of another.

As for Revelation 20, exactly where does it state that Jesus will be on the earth? It states that those who have partaken in the first resurrection will reign with Him for 1000 years, BUT IT NEVER STATES WHERE. Figuring that these people are dead, I would think that they would be under the throne, in heaven. I believe that is the proper place for them because it is written:

Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began

So then Jesus has to remain in heaven. When does the restitution take place? Rev 21. The old earth gets burned up in Rev 20, the wicked are judged, the righteous rewarded and then a new heaven and earth are revealed.

When I used the term rescued, I was referring to those of us who were still living at the climax of the Gog Magog war. We will be surrounded and we're being surrounded now. Where can you go in the world that the influence of the godless Magogite culture is not present and getting worse. One-worldism, man-is-evolving into a god-ism, "get rid of religion," apostasy in the Church, homosexuality is great and deserves rights, euthanasia, blah blah blah. Fire will fall from heaven and consume those people when the LORD decides He has had enough of them.

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If Preterism were true, the world should be getting better; but all we see is the world getting worse and worse.

What exactly are you attributing to Preterism that would require the world to be getting better? I need a little more meat on your answer to be able to reply to it.

I see you also failed to want to touch Matthew 10:23. It seems all the futurists in here just ask questions, but fail to be able to answer them.

He's mixing up preterism with historic postmillennialism which contends that through common grace, man ushers in the millennium.

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