The possibly False teachings of OSAS and Eternal Security

[Guest shiloh357]

I do believe that the OSAS has been as much as a stumbling block to true Christianity as the altar call and the so called "sinner's prayer." While yes there is evidence of eternal security, it's not unconditional.

Why are there so many warnings about falling away from faith?

This is what Jesus had to say:

Matthew 10:22 (Endure until the end)

Matthew 24:12 & 13 (Endure until the end)

Mark 4:3-20 (Parable of the Sower)

Mark 13:13 (Endure until the end)

John 15:2 & 6 (You must remain in me)

Revelation 2:5 (Remove lampstand)

Revelation 2:10 (Be faithful unto death)

Revelation 3:1-5 (Erase name from the Book of Life)

Peter:

II Peter 1:10 (IF you are diligent you will not fall)

II Peter 2:20-22 (Know Christ then overcome by sin; worse than before)

II Peter 3:17 (Fall from your steadfastness)

Paul:

Romans 11:20-23 (Branches grafted then broken off)

I Corinthians 10:11 & 12 (Take heed lest you fall)

I Corinthians 15:1-2 (Believed in vain)

Galatians 5:4 (You have fallen from Grace)

Galatians 6:9 (Reap IF not faint)

Colossians 1:23 (IF you continue in the faith)

I Thessalonians 3:8 (IF you stand fast in the Lord)

I Timothy 2:15 (IF they continue in faith)

I Timothy 3:6 & 7 (Recent convert + conceit = condemnation of the Devil)

I Timothy 4:1 (Some will depart from the faith)

Hebrews 3:6 ( IF we hold fast to the end)

Hebrews 3:14 (Partakers of Christ, IF we hold steadfast)

Hebrews 6:4-6 (If they fall away...)

Hebrews 10:38 & 39 (Believe = Saved; Drawback = Perdition)

A lot of those don't even pertain to salvation, per se. For example: Jesus talking about enduring to the end in Matt. 24 is referring to being presserved (saved) through tribulation. The Greek word for "saved" has five different meanings and occurs in different contexts. Being "saved" in the NT refers to preservation, security, healing, restoration, and deliverance from evil. So, just throwing up a bunch of partial quotes of verses, singling out phrases and stringing them together like lights on a Christmas tree is not really a reliable means of presenting the Scriptures. If I used your method, I could make the Bible say that we are saved by works ONLY and not by Christ. You can make the Bible say anything you want it to say using the method you employed above.

Hebrews 6:4-6 is not talking about apostasy at all. If you notice the context which begins in Hebrews 5:12, you will notice that the complaint is not that they are in danger of apostasizing. The complaint is that they are they are lazy and stagnate in their growth. The term "fall away" in Greek in that passage does not refer to apostasy, but refers to a person who has fallen out. The picture is of the runner of a race who drops out because of fatigue. The greek word is parpiptos and means to fall aside in this particular verse, not fall away as in apostasy which is a totally different word in Greek.

Galatians 5:4 refers to falling from grace. Falling from grace is not falling from salvation. This is not talking about saving grace; it refers to sanctifying grace, if you will or what some refer to as "daily" grace," which is the ability to live for Christ. The issue is not about how they got saved, but the way they had used the law as the means of sanctification. In the Greek the phrase refers to losing one's mental grip or understanding of grace. They had been decieved by the Judaizers and as a result they were using the law as a substitute for grace with respect to their salvation. The word for "falllen" again does not carry the meaning or connotation of apostasy, but rather they had lost their hold on the sanctifying power of God's grace. Kenneth Wuest makes the following observation pertaining to this verse:

Just because the process of sanctification is temporarily retarded in a believer's life, does not say that his justification is taken away. If that were the case, then the retention of salvation would depend upon the believer's works, and then salvation would not depend upon grace anymore. And we find ourselves in the camp of the Judaizers, ancient and modern.

I am not gong to go down and cover each example, but anyone who puts those passages in their original contexts and keeps their eyes on the object the author has in view will see that their aim is not to argue that salvation can be lost. In many cases, the issue is not about being saved from sin at all. In other cases, they refer to those who have a knowledge of the truth, but choose to abandon the truth. They come to gate so to speak; they know the truth, but they reject it and thus choose to reject the offer of salvation.

[enoob57]

Here is where the proverbial rubber meets the road:

The foundation is Christ Jesus and His Finished Work... Here is where you place your belief to receive the free gift of Salvation!

Now add anything to this and you have effectively not believed in His Finished work! Now the rest of the Scripture as Shiloh has said is put in place that we may examine ourselves to see if we are walking in and are of this truth...

It is not a difficult reasoning to understand the situation: From the time of original sin, like leaven, has spread out into all the creation so that light is sparse and only shadows of truth prevail. The position of our Lord is one of no shadow but of purity and light unapproachable by the least smidge of darkness... Holiness 'IS' the 100% of God Whom is no darkness, no confusion; that which His Word will form in us, given the fact of our hearts yielding to The Precepts Within It's pages! How then can hearts already given to darkness desire light? Jn 3... You must have New Birth! Who provides the New Birth? What part of that provision are we involved in? For me it is a simple understanding that which is not-> made to be as 'IS' belongs to God alone- seen in the original creation, bara and asah. That there are only three existences in creation: One. Being God, Who alone has the eternal Being and the other two formed from the Will of God, the corporeal and that reformed from the existing corporeal. When we were created God took the asah and placed within it by The Spirit of His Breath His Image and we became eternal as a Living Soul! When we chose sin in Adam -

pause- people rebel here because they cannot judge correctly but all of us, at our time of responsibility, became aware that something that should not be done (it was wrong and we knew it) and the reward of doing it became more of value to us then the obedience of not doing and did it ... we then agreed with our original parents to disobey for the benefit of what the temptation offered -continue

- by choosing sin we became eternally separated from God by darkness.

God asks us the haunting question

2 Co 6:14-18

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

"I will dwell in them AND walk among them.I will be their God,And they shall be My people."

17 Therefore

"Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord.Do not touch what is unclean,And I will receive you." 18 'I will be a Father to you,And you shall be My sons and daughters,Says the Lord Almighty."

NKJV

The answer is eternal separation and how can that which is coming out of the same be any different -therefore that which is not must be made 'IS'...

Hence Christ entrance into the world as Light (God) into asah (body). This Life in flesh said no to sin in Himself thus fulfilling the requirement of The Law / Righteousness of God The Father, Son and Holy Spirit! The Cross is the great exchange- His Life of perfection for our life of sin and ruin. Being drawn by The Father, to see that which our eyes cannot behold, we cry out Lord Save me from sin... upon that open door He enters us (Holy Spirit) and we become, by that seal, His eternal children. The deception of satan is great only because there is truth of endless proportions in God that can be perverted by him! The rest of Scripture is as a sword dividing truth from lie so that the children see instruction and follow after it and the blind remain blind-> not seeing the truth that 'IS', 'WAS' and 'WILL BE' Our God in The Fellowship of His Eternal Light...

1 Pe 1:22-25

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 24 because

"All flesh is as grass,

And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.

The grass withers,

And its flower falls away,

25 But the word of the Lord endures forever."

NKJV

Jn 15:3

3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

NKJV

So if you still wish to add- if, perhaps, maybe to the perfect work of the Son's Being 'HIS Eternal Life' then you will have something other than what God Has taught us in His Word- that we receive freely from His Hand... Love, Steven

[L.J.]

Shiloh and enoob,

Real busy right now with the Christmas thing. About to travel on the road for a few days doing the whole "Christmas tour" lol. But I'll be back Wed and would love to comment on ya'lls reply.

In the mean time, Merry Christmas to both of ya'll.

In Christ,

L.J.

[oak]

To Shiloh, Floatingaxe and Enoob:

First I believe and confess that Christ was Crucified for my sins and then was Resurrected and now sits on the right hand of his Father bringing the Holy Spirit to Earth for our Guidance and great blessings of Salvation. I never meant that God will not fulfill His Guarantee rather I am concerned about us living lives daily to the every end to keep us in God’s good grace and certainly accepting.

There are many points to cover but I will choose for brevieties sake what I feel is the comments you share. Because my health – do the state of it and it’s coverage, business concern, IRS, family divisions due to trusts, hit me all to once.

First Shiloh and Enoob used selected passages from, I John 5.

1) Shiloh and Enoob:

And this is the testimony, which God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

(1Jn 5:11-13)

These words are indeed form Holy Scripture and I recognize them as true. However why didn’t neither of you quote, “Little children, keep yourself from idols.” 1 Jn 5:21, it is how John finishes chapter 5. Why is this, a relevant or not a relevant passage? Or will I hear Shiloh’s famous remark, ‘it has nothing to do with salvation.’ And that is my main misunderstanding of your quotes because the New Testament and the Epistles have everything to do with Salvation, period.

2)Shiloh, and Flaotingaxe:

Shiloh:

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

(Eph 1:13-14)

Floatingaxe:

Ephesians 1:11-14

11God also decided ahead of time to choose us through Christ according to his plan, which makes everything work the way he intends. 12He planned all of this so that we who had already focused our hope on Christ would praise him and give him glory. 13 You heard and believed the message of truth, the Good News that he has saved you. In him you were sealed with the Holy Spirit whom he promised. 14This Holy Spirit is the guarantee that we will receive our inheritance. We have this guarantee until we are set free to belong to him. God receives praise and glory for this.

To Shiloh and Floatingaxe:

Take in Ephasian1:14 what is the significance of “...until we acquire possession of it [Holy Spirit]?”

In summation, in my life I have encountered OSAS Christians who ask me if they can consume alcohol with Hepatitis C, never mind what the doctor says,and can they gamble since they are saved? Also, people saying there life is in shambles and I ask them do you pray, go to church seek redemption. The answer is “no,” because I am already saved.” Lastly I think OSAS and Eternal Security in some people is a childish understanding or at worst pride. Yet no one is exempt from those deceptions.

Happy Christmas

Oak

Ps My only regret is that I named the post: “The False teachings…” If anyone can change it to the Possible False teachings I would be grateful.

PSS I will try to address in a more complete way the information you provided..

[Guest shiloh357]

First I believe and confess that Christ was Crucified for my sins and then was Resurrected and now sits on the right hand of his Father bringing the Holy Spirit to Earth for our Guidance and great blessings of Salvation. I never meant that God will not fulfill His Guarantee rather I am concerned about us living lives daily to the every end to keep us in God’s good grace and certainly accepting.

That's just it... You can't keep yourself in God's grace. Salvation is not something you keep. Salvation is what keeps you. You are not accepted by God on the basis of what you do. God is not interested in us performing well enough for him. We couldn't possibly do that any way. our good works are not done to be accepted, but out of grateful love because we are already accepted through Christ.

Quote

1) Shiloh and Enoob:

And this is the testimony, which God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

(1Jn 5:11-13)

These words are indeed form Holy Scripture and I recognize them as true. However why didn’t neither of you quote, “Little children, keep yourself from idols.” 1 Jn 5:21, it is how John finishes chapter 5. Why is this, a relevant or not a relevant passage? Or will I hear Shiloh’s famous remark, ‘it has nothing to do with salvation.’ And that is my main misunderstanding of your quotes because the New Testament and the Epistles have everything to do with Salvation, period.

That I didn't quote that verse doesn't mean I am ignoring it. I quoted the part that directly addressed your comments about how offering assurance of salvation is rooted in deception. A person who is an authentic follower of Christ will not be straying after idols in the first place.

I never said that keeping the commandments or obedience had nothing to do with salvation. I said that they are not the means of attaining or maintaining salvation. They have everything to do with salvation in that they are an open demonstration to the world that our profession of faith is genuine.

To Shiloh and Floatingaxe:

Take in Ephasian1:14 what is the significance of “...until we acquire possession of it [Holy Spirit]?”

Read the passage:

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

(Eph 1:13-14)

The "it" is not the Holy Spirit; He is a Person. The "it" is our inheritance. The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of our inheritance. The Holy Spirit is not something we can possess. He indwells us. He guides, teaches and comforts us. Never refer to the Holy Spirit as an "it."

In summation, in my life I have encountered OSAS Christians who ask me if they can consume alcohol with Hepatitis C, never mind what the doctor says,and can they gamble since they are saved? Also, people saying there life is in shambles and I ask them do you pray, go to church seek redemption. The answer is “no,” because I am already saved.” Lastly I think OSAS and Eternal Security in some people is a childish understanding or at worst pride. Yet no one is exempt from those deceptions.

What makes you think they are really Christians if their life doesn't demonstrate it?

[Floatingaxe]

Floatingaxe:

Ephesians 1:11-14

11God also decided ahead of time to choose us through Christ according to his plan, which makes everything work the way he intends. 12He planned all of this so that we who had already focused our hope on Christ would praise him and give him glory. 13 You heard and believed the message of truth, the Good News that he has saved you. In him you were sealed with the Holy Spirit whom he promised. 14This Holy Spirit is the guarantee that we will receive our inheritance. We have this guarantee until we are set free to belong to him. God receives praise and glory for this.

Amen! Only Holy Spirit is my guarantee! What matters is what Jesus has already done. He has bought my freedom from sin. I no longer am committed to sinning, but committed to righteousness. Now, because of my rebirth in Christ Jesus, when I sin, I repent and am completely forgiven immediately and made right with God again---and am free to continue to walk with Him.

To Shiloh and Floatingaxe:

Take in Ephasian1:14 what is the significance of “...until we acquire possession of it [Holy Spirit]?”

In summation, in my life I have encountered OSAS Christians who ask me if they can consume alcohol with Hepatitis C, never mind what the doctor says,and can they gamble since they are saved? Also, people saying there life is in shambles and I ask them do you pray, go to church seek redemption. The answer is “no,” because I am already saved.” Lastly I think OSAS and Eternal Security in some people is a childish understanding or at worst pride. Yet no one is exempt from those deceptions.

Happy Christmas

Oak

Why would people ask you such things? It appears that perhaps these people are still in need of Jesus Christ for salvation.

[Fez]

What Shiloh and enoob said. They said it best

I am saved and always will be!

[enoob57]

1) Shiloh and Enoob:

And this is the testimony, which God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

(1Jn 5:11-13)

These words are indeed form Holy Scripture and I recognize them as true. However why didn’t neither of you quote, “Little children, keep yourself from idols.

” 1 Jn 5:21

21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

NKJV

it is how John finishes chapter 5. Why is this, a relevant or not a relevant passage? Or will I hear Shiloh’s famous remark, ‘it has nothing to do with salvation.’ And that is my main misunderstanding of your quotes because the New Testament and the Epistles have everything to do with Salvation, period.

It is understood that The Gospel leads us to Christ Jesus for salvation but then the rest is to bring us into the perfection of actively yielding to the instructions of Scripture in order to renew our minds so that we Think like our Husband Christ and appear as living epistles to the written ones...

Here is why I Know what I say is truth:

Ro 8:15-17

15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

NKJV

Because when this was written by Paul it was nearly the entire world of Roman rule and law and within it's laws the law of adoption

was of the sort that it could not be reversed nor annulled... it was the permanence of while living. So being addressed to those immersed in the center of the Roman culture would recognize immediately the strength of Paul's statement of Spiritual realities in context of the writing of adoption! The spirit of bondage again to fear is clearly the doing to receive 'Law'... which is pictured in

Mt 7:22-25

22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Build on the Rock (this reiterated by Paul from Rom 7 into 8)

(Lk 6:47-49)

24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

NKJV

Here is where the rightly dividing of The Word is needful vs 22-23 are doing and condemned and vs 24 is saying do... How this is resolved- Notice how the ones vs 22-23 are trying to gain entrance into Heaven through Christ by works and Christ's rejection of them fulfilling His Word Titus 3:5-7. Then the proverbial 'therefore' what's it there for? Based on their rejection of gaining salvation by works Our hope must be built upon The Rock (Christ) take note that all the elements could not tear it down because it was solely founded upon The Rock (Christ)! Which then moves us into a compete listing of that which cannot remove our salvation that is solely founded upon Christ Jesus-

Ro 8:37-39

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NKJV

All things created by God are contained in this list (ALL) note Paul (I am persuaded = I have assurance) nothing can separate me from Love in Christ... We are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12-13... Here again if Salvation is not of works how then can we work it out and how could Paul in assurance of not being separated from The Love In Christ advise this to be done in fear and trembling? 2Pet 1:5-11 Peter shows us that fruit of God is to be examined by our spirit. John tells us there are other spirits not of the truth that want us to put faith into them 1Jn 4:1-6... Then final cap stone of truth 1 Jn 4:18-19

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love. 19 We love Him because He first loved us.

NKJV

All who do not have this perfect love of assurance so that they do not fear hell... need to re-examine where their faith rests! For the Scriptures teach that in Christ Jesus alone 'IS' our Rock of Salvation and by this

Jn 5:24

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

NKJV

echei - the Greek verb hath/has and it is in the present tense, active voice, indicative mood or evidential mood meaning the moment upon hearing the Word and believing on Him Who sent me at that moment is given everlasting life and hell is not in the picture any more! There are many doctrines that involve Jesus plus something-> all these will lead to the fearful dilemma of possible destruction... Love, Steven

[enoob57]

I am not a prophet nor a teacher but there is a grave deception when men re-assure other men about the very essence of salvation. The people that I have known left Worthy, and why did they leave? The spirit of deception is, oh so rampant. It is indeed insidious (leading to death). The overall structure of this lie is that is based on truth.

I am not going to get into the eternal security argument again. That has been beat to death. What I do want to address is the notion that people have left because they don't agree with the OSAS doctrine. Everyone here has differen't views on that subject. I don't know why someone had to leave, when WB is non-denominational? Could it be that they would get angry when others didn't agree with them, and it became a nasty argument with a lot of bad feelings?

When I first joined WB, I got angry with the poor deluded people that believed in eternal security. Over time, I realized that there are various ways two people can read the same scriptures and come to differen't conclusions. If you get mad over disagreements, it won't do any good. They won't change their mind, and you probably won't change your mind. You will get along with others better if you just stand for what you believe in, and accept the fact others won't always agree. Ultimately we all have to stand before God at the judgment. Jesus will ultimately decide our fate. Some who don't believe in eternal security live like the devil. Some who believe in eternal security do that which is right in the sight of God. If you believe eternal security is a lie, don't back down, but don't let it anger you that others think you are wrong. It won't do you or anyone else any good.

Please be more clear to this statement by adding Paul The Apostle to the teaching of eternal assurance!

Ro 8:28-39

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (this is complete work is it not)

God's Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:

"For Your sake we are killed all day long;

We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NKJV

This is the eternal doctrine of Salvation upon Christ alone...delivered by Paul!

Here is the ultimate end of works based Philosophy of Scripture:

Where in the beginning one man ate and all died... The second Man came and offered the fruit of Himself to be eaten and all that eat live... the second can once again be overtaken by the first leaving the doctrine of Christ null and void 1Cor 15 (all) teaches the proper truth of this! Once the Power of Christ Work is understood we can go to Heb 6 and we can understand that the power of Christ is in place- established in His Being so that no one may re-hang The Son of God upon The Cross of His already finished work which would bring Him once again to open shame... No one!!!!!!!

Thus the heart that is formed in me... when I am brought into His Presence at death:

All of what is done in me or out of me is not the banner of my worthiness of entrance into His Fathers house but upon His Love for me alone shall I be found face down into the pavement of His judgment with eye unworthy to look upon Him Who is The Perfection of The Father! Here in this place spiritually I have already been and His Spirit has testified this to me that I am His because of this truth that is in my heart!

Love, Steven

[oak]

To all:

I spoke to my Priest today about this topic, and he told me to reconsider being part of this Christian internet forum. So, I will take some time off to ponder this suggestion. In closing, I thank everyone who helped me learn and grow. Maybe, my priest wants me to collect and gather my thoughts on my own for awhile.

Oak