Jump to content
IGNORED

Understanding Job?


tsth

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  3
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  71
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   16
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/27/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  02/21/1964

14 hours ago, warrior12 said:

Maybe, you should include the scripture verses as to your statements so we could go look them up.  By all means, if you have the knowledge, teach  or enlighten with your references. 

Hi Warrior12. Thanks. Just so I understand -you're OK to explore types of Christ in the Old Testament? If so, the OT is, I believe the evidence is compelling, bursting with records of faithful people who prefigured the role of Jesus in some way. For example, Joseph and what happened to him! BY understanding the lives of these people we understand the role of Jesus better and the purpose of God more clearly. That's all I'm trying to say.

Take Joseph, then. If I can assume that you are familiar with his life story, we have a faithful, righteous man who is rejected by his brothers because of his declarations of being 'favoured.' In jealousy and ignorance, they seek to remove him to the point of his death. God preserves him, however, and sends him ahead to protect, provide for and preserve his brothers in due course. He is revealed to them with an explanation of the truth behind their actions and his purpose. They are humbled at the revelation but are blessed ultimately. The core of the promise God made to Abraham is running right through this account of Joseph. What do you think?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Soy Richard said:

Conversation ends. You dont know your scriptures. Jesus said all the law and the prophets spoke of him. Youre are blind to him.

Ive quoted more scripture than you have but yet I dont know them.  Im not blind to any of my Sovereign Lords words or his personality. I know my Savior!  Now you sound like the accuser of the brethren!

I take into account the scriptures,commentary of the scriptures from men who were known to be trustworthy of their interpretation of scripture, and the Holy Spirit guiding me through the process. I dont agree with you . There is none like Christ who is GOD!  There is none that are a type of Christ.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  54
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  2,371
  • Content Per Day:  0.87
  • Reputation:   1,489
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/05/2016
  • Status:  Online

32 minutes ago, Soy Richard said:

Hi Warrior12. Thanks. Just so I understand -you're OK to explore types of Christ in the Old Testament? If so, the OT is, I believe the evidence is compelling, bursting with records of faithful people who prefigured the role of Jesus in some way. For example, Joseph and what happened to him! BY understanding the lives of these people we understand the role of Jesus better and the purpose of God more clearly. That's all I'm trying to say.

Take Joseph, then. If I can assume that you are familiar with his life story, we have a faithful, righteous man who is rejected by his brothers because of his declarations of being 'favoured.' In jealousy and ignorance, they seek to remove him to the point of his death. God preserves him, however, and sends him ahead to protect, provide for and preserve his brothers in due course. He is revealed to them with an explanation of the truth behind their actions and his purpose. They are humbled at the revelation but are blessed ultimately. The core of the promise God made to Abraham is running right through this account of Joseph. What do you think?

I have the phrase "Type of Christ" used mainly by Baptist preachers, using some of the  examples that you mentioned to demonstrate the suffering and trials Christ endured while here on earth.    This kind of preaching can present problems and sentiments for those who uses the phrase to demonstrate suffering, persecution ect.  But what that leads to is , seeing and reaching into theology that can be manipulative and where do you stop in the examples.  You can see just about anything if you can justify it with an explanation of your own and call it a "Type".

While I do understand the narrative behind using the phrase, it also comes with a teaching that Christ is seen throughout the OT  and therefore the reference.  This is important as many disagree with that teaching and hold only to the view of Christ as viewed in NT, though Christ himself said that before Abraham was, he was.   It can become confusing, even if the phrase is used to show Christlike qualities.   But when speaking of the Godhead, there is no comparison to compare what he did sovereign ruler must be applied to his name, even though he came took the form of flesh and blood.

I think there is enough scripture to understand the role of Jesus as you put it and if we look at the apostles writings and especially Paul, i think it is enough if time is spent in those scripture readings.  

There is one example that can be compelling to use this phrase, that is Abraham and the call to sacrifice of Issac.  You can look into that and see a Type of Christ situation, but the real fact was it was a test of faithfulness and obedience.    The agony of going to the cross as explained in the gospel cannot be compared by any other event, even as terrible as JOB was about.  The shedding of devine blood is at the heart of the matter, which none of the examples could show.   But as i said, i do understand the reasoning behind the phrase. 

 

  

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Worthy Ministers
  • Followers:  96
  • Topic Count:  304
  • Topics Per Day:  0.08
  • Content Count:  18,094
  • Content Per Day:  4.65
  • Reputation:   27,773
  • Days Won:  327
  • Joined:  08/03/2013
  • Status:  Offline

Blessings Suzanne...

    Good to see you......nice study!   Its very funny to me personally whenever I hear anything about "Job".....as a very young person and even as an immature Believer I struggled with something the Lord had for me,He Has for all of us.....it is not a "Gift" so it does not come so easy,it comes with an active Relationship with God in Christ,a renewing of the mind,lots of learning & eventually growth.....hmm,what am I talking about?LOL,I am talking about bearing Good Fruits but one in particular....Patience

    All I ever heard when I was younger was "Patience dear girl,read the Book of Job!"   Well,would you think a person named Kwik would have patience of their own efforts,absolutely not! And over & over,year after year I heard those words"Read the Book of Job".....I used to say"I don't like the Book of Job & I don't want Patience,I want Gods Timing to hurry up!!!"   Wow,talk about immaturity ,huh? Well,of course I did read the Book of Job every single time someone said that I should....and what is so funny to me is that I never once saw how Job had anything to do with "patience" and I still don't,lol

   Maybe its a rcc thing,I'm not sure.....they tell you if you are not patient you will have to learn to be patient by suffering as Job did.....I understand that God Will bring you to your knees in humility in chastisement because He Loves us,His Own so very much but I saw a grumbling,complaining,whining,self righteous man that thought he knew more than God ......I saw Almighty Sovereign God took the time to tell Job personally -what was what,that He is indeed the Great I AM,Creator of the Universe .....when I read the Book of Job I can't help but read what the Lord Says to each of the players....it helps me to Know God in a very special way    I see a very Patient God,Understanding,Kind,Loving,Gentle,,Good,Faithful,I see  my Heavenly FATHER disciplining & teaching His children.  This is Awesome to me because the Book of Job is one of the first Books and I'm not so sure His people really Understood Him as Father.....especially after they were given the Law.All I could think of is when the Disciples asked Jesus "How do we pray" and Jesus began with "Our FATHER"    

   Anyway,sorry for the summarization of what Job means to me,....it was my lesson in Humility and much more than that....a Fathers LOVE

                                                                             God Bless,Kwik

  • Loved it! 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  2
  • Topic Count:  297
  • Topics Per Day:  0.04
  • Content Count:  5,586
  • Content Per Day:  0.70
  • Reputation:   193
  • Days Won:  1
  • Joined:  04/09/2002
  • Status:  Offline

Absolutely kwikphilly...there's so much instruction in this book!  And it is very humbling.  The big message I got from it, and that I've never heard any preacher preach about it, is the huge instruction w/regard to Elihu!  His witness, his testimony, his care for Job and the Lord...he was adamant about Who God Is, and he was so bothered that Job was missing it!  If it had not been for the witness of Elihu, the story of Job might have gone differently, depending upon what the Lord desired to teach.  But to me, there is such a message w/regard to Elihu and the power of a witness who will testify to what they know about the Lord...in their personal relationship.  Elihu testified!  Thus, he was not included in God's reprimand of Job's "friends" at the end of the book.

 

In His Love,

Suzanne

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, tsth said:

Good morning all....as the OP of this topic, I just wanted to stop in and say that the symbolism of Leviathan is very significant.  To refer to another poster here...the Leviathan is a "type" of Satan...and just as every other created thing, God can and will use for his purposes.  Just as He did w/Pharaoh in that time, Leviathan is a picture of one who will deal w/"children of pride"....those who will not submit to the authority of God.  Wicked can and will be used towards evil. 

Psalm 16:4

4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to the LORD: though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.c
 
Those who are so stiff-necked and will not submit to God...will be dealt with.
 
In His Love,
Suzanne
 

 

To be honest, I havent given this word much thought before. I learned from Job what God wanted me learn. Job was full of pride and he suffered alot! Job was given a good scorning because he didnt understand his place with our Sovereign Lord. That is what I learned from Job.

As far as the leviathan, I considered all other scripture that use the word leviathan.I also considered many other things today to learn more about this. I no longer think it was a crocodile or whale but a creature that was huge (dinosaur huge) and likened to a dragon that swims or several large beasts. It was a terrifying sea creature. I do think the creature actually existed. I also think that the word leviathan was used figuratively in other scripture  such as Isaiah .

Isaiah 27:1 - In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.

Job 41:1-34 - Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord [which] thou lettest down?   (Read More...)

Psalms 74:14 - Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, [and] gavest him [to be] meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

Psalms 104:26 - There go the ships: [there is] that leviathan, [whom] thou hast made to play therein.

Job 41:1 - Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord [which] thou lettest down?

Job 3:8 - Let them curse it that curse the day, who are ready to raise up their mourning.

Psalms 18:8 - There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Psalms 74:13-14 - Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.   (Read More...)

Job 40:15-24 - Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.   (Read More...)

Job 41:18 - By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes [are] like the eyelids of the morning.

Job 41:10 - None [is so] fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?

Psalms 74:13 - Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.

Job 41:31 - He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.

"Leviathan [N] [T]

a transliterated Hebrew word (livyathan), meaning "twisted," "coiled." In Job 3:8 , Revised Version, and marg. of Authorized Version, it denotes the dragon which, according to Eastern tradition, is an enemy of light; in 41:1 the crocodile is meant; in Psalms 104:26 it "denotes any large animal that moves by writhing or wriggling the body, the whale, the monsters of the deep." This word is also used figuratively for a cruel enemy, as some think "the Egyptian host, crushed by the divine power, and cast on the shores of the Red Sea" ( Psalms 74:14 ). As used in Isaiah 27:1 , "leviathan the piercing [RSV 'swift'] serpent, even leviathan that crooked [RSV marg. 'winding'] serpent," the word may probably denote the two empires, the Assyrian and the Babylonian."

http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/leviathan/

 

"The description in this section of scripture certainly appears to treat the leviathan as a real sea “monster,” with which the ancients were quite familiar. Again and again, the point is made that no one has been able to master this creature.

And so, as suggested above, the main lesson is this: since man cannot dominate this creature – issued from the Maker’s hand – puny humanity (Job in particular) is not in a position to judge God’s activity relative to the inhabitants of the earth. Many people today desperately need to learn this lesson!"

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/352-what-is-leviathan

 

"The relationship between gigantic animals and Satan

God’s speech is geared towards refuting Job’s reproach that He acts wrongly. This is accomplished by referring to ‘diabolic’ creatures. If Job does not have the courage to fight behemoth and leviathan, then he cannot take God on. But God himself defeats these animals. The world is not in the hands of the evildoers, because Jhwh reigns.41 It seems that God sees a relationship between the large animals and Satan and describes them as such. In this way we will understand that only “his Maker can approach him with his sword” (40:19); this also means that his Creator is indeed more powerful than all the evil that is present. And we will understand that the final part of the description of leviathan also refers to Satan as “the prince of this world”: “He looks down on all that are haughty; he is king over all that are proud” (41:33–34).42

Job knew little of the great lawsuit between God and Satan described in Job 1–2. But through the references to creation and to the mighty animals that are subjected to God’s power, Job may have understood that even terrible things are subjected to God. Through this the Lord has revealed—although Job could not fully grasp it—that there was a purpose behind the suffering."

http://creation.com/behemoth-and-leviathan

 

"Leviathan was a dangerous creature that caused seasoned warriors to turn and run. Leviathan is no myth, but rather a real creature of the sea, subject only to its Creator. As God says in His description of Leviathan, “Who then is able to stand against me? Who has a claim against me that I must pay? Everything under heaven belongs to me” (Job 41:10–11)."

https://www.gotquestions.org/leviathan.html

 

Blessings :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  3
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  71
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   16
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/27/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  02/21/1964

15 hours ago, warrior12 said:

I have the phrase "Type of Christ" used mainly by Baptist preachers, using some of the  examples that you mentioned to demonstrate the suffering and trials Christ endured while here on earth.    This kind of preaching can present problems and sentiments for those who uses the phrase to demonstrate suffering, persecution ect.  But what that leads to is , seeing and reaching into theology that can be manipulative and where do you stop in the examples.  You can see just about anything if you can justify it with an explanation of your own and call it a "Type".

While I do understand the narrative behind using the phrase, it also comes with a teaching that Christ is seen throughout the OT  and therefore the reference.  This is important as many disagree with that teaching and hold only to the view of Christ as viewed in NT, though Christ himself said that before Abraham was, he was.   It can become confusing, even if the phrase is used to show Christlike qualities.   But when speaking of the Godhead, there is no comparison to compare what he did sovereign ruler must be applied to his name, even though he came took the form of flesh and blood.

I think there is enough scripture to understand the role of Jesus as you put it and if we look at the apostles writings and especially Paul, i think it is enough if time is spent in those scripture readings.  

There is one example that can be compelling to use this phrase, that is Abraham and the call to sacrifice of Issac.  You can look into that and see a Type of Christ situation, but the real fact was it was a test of faithfulness and obedience.    The agony of going to the cross as explained in the gospel cannot be compared by any other event, even as terrible as JOB was about.  The shedding of devine blood is at the heart of the matter, which none of the examples could show.   But as i said, i do understand the reasoning behind the phrase. 

 

  

The phrase 'type of Christ' is just a collection of words. It is being used to portray a concept. We can use other words, I don't care. It's the concept that is important. The concept is Scriptural. Look at 1 Peter 3,20-21. Peter explains the flood is a 'figure' (or type) of baptism. Jesus says no 'sign' shall be given to that generation except the sign of the prophet Jonah. There is something about Jonah that is prefiguring Christ. It doesn't mean the man Jonah was a mini-Christ in any way. So from the above we have things/events and people that can teach us about God's purpose. I was trying to say Job is an example because he is a figure, sign, type - whatever you want to call it - that a righteous man can suffer. He is showing that this phenomenon can be sanctioned by God and as such, it points forward to Jesus the Son and the suffering he would endure.

Types don't have to be about suffering. Look at the creation record. The sun and moon became visible on the 4th day. In the 7ooo years of Bible history (Gen-Rev) when did Jesus appear in the earth, claiming 'I am the light of the world?' It's basic stuff really.

Jesus directed people's attention to the fact that the OT spoke of him. Of course, in the prophecies about his birth and life and death, but there is so much more. He is portrayed in the lives and events recorded. I stress again, we don't view Samson (for example) as an approximation to Christ. But some of the things Samson did are describing the role of Jesus to come. Otherwise we're left with interesting stories and not much else? Yet these people are listed as faithful in Heb 11. Try this: how is Samson a type of Christ? I can see several times, at least. Most notably in his death. Look what it says: Judges 16,30

"So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life." 

Now, you can dismiss this or you can see God portraying the victory of His Son over sin and death. What about Samson taking the gates of his enemies? What about Samson allowing himself to be taken by then Philistines? These are 'shadows' or figures or types of the role of Jesus. There may be a danger of going too far. I'd contend there is a danger of dismissing the concept and not seeing the wealth of information we are presented in the OT that is all about Christ - and of course, it is presented there by God, so it is the honour of kings to search out a matter.

One more point. The internet is awash with comments condemning Moses as a murderer for his slaying of the Egyptian. Yet, God does not condemn him and he is included in Heb 11. So this record in Ex. 2, what is it teaching us? Is it an interesting but ultimately pointless story? Since when was Scripture that? So it must have a meaning. What? Leave Christ out of the meaning and we have what? A tale of ethics or human nature? Add Christ to the meaning - then we might have a glimpse, figure, type, whatever word you wish to use, of the purpose of God through His Son. Work it out.

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  3
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  430
  • Content Per Day:  0.17
  • Reputation:   131
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/20/2017
  • Status:  Offline

 

Quote

Job 40:15-24 - Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.   (Read More...)

A behemoth isn't a Leviathan.  A behemoth is a land creature that eats grass.  It's not dino, it's a simple water ox.  The Leviathan is a different story.  There's no doubt it has both human and demonic faculties.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Diamond Member
  • Followers:  5
  • Topic Count:  54
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  2,371
  • Content Per Day:  0.87
  • Reputation:   1,489
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  10/05/2016
  • Status:  Online

2 hours ago, Soy Richard said:

Jesus directed people's attention to the fact that the OT spoke of him. Of course, in the prophecies about his birth and life and death, but there is so much more. He is portrayed in the lives and events recorded.

Earlier on the thread you said that you did not believe Christ is of the Godhead. see your quote below in red.  Jesus plainly said  that before Abraham was, he was.  Many see this verse and see Christ in all the situation that you mentioned.  It can lead one into strange places .    However , i have mentioned my take on what you are referring to and i understand the concept.

You said also that without portraying the episodes and likes that you mentioned, that if Christ is not seen in those then they just become interesting stories.  Then it all comes down  to  how one read his bible and understands what the narrative of those situation are to the reader.  David for example has many, many lessons to be had, like adultery, murder and also God appointing men to position of his choice.

I created a post titled  below.  I did so, because while many read the bible and are based in good solid churches and have good biblical upbringing, you find many also with interpretations and ideas that are not of the so called "mainstream" interpretation and practice, hence you could say how one chooses a denomination to participate in church ect.   Do you see the concept of " Type of Christ " mentioned in orthodox christianity ?.    Here is  the thing, if it helps you to understand your bible in a better way, then it's a choice of worship that satisfies your soul and  who can come between you and your maker. 

Those are my thoughts . 

...What is the driving force for the theology you have formulated in your christian walk . Some have even changed course after long years as they have come to see scripture differently as they previously had.
 

"Types are not supposed to be exact. Perhaps you might consider Job as a type of Christ and see if I'm right? I've never seen Christ as God either. For example, Jesus rejected being called 'good.'"

Soy Richard quote above.

Edited by warrior12
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  3
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  71
  • Content Per Day:  0.03
  • Reputation:   16
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/27/2017
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  02/21/1964

10 hours ago, warrior12 said:

Earlier on the thread you said that you did not believe Christ is of the Godhead. see your quote below in red.  Jesus plainly said  that before Abraham was, he was.  Many see this verse and see Christ in all the situation that you mentioned.  It can lead one into strange places .    However , i have mentioned my take on what you are referring to and i understand the concept.

You said also that without portraying the episodes and likes that you mentioned, that if Christ is not seen in those then they just become interesting stories.  Then it all comes down  to  how one read his bible and understands what the narrative of those situation are to the reader.  David for example has many, many lessons to be had, like adultery, murder and also God appointing men to position of his choice.

I created a post titled  below.  I did so, because while many read the bible and are based in good solid churches and have good biblical upbringing, you find many also with interpretations and ideas that are not of the so called "mainstream" interpretation and practice, hence you could say how one chooses a denomination to participate in church ect.   Do you see the concept of " Type of Christ " mentioned in orthodox christianity ?.    Here is  the thing, if it helps you to understand your bible in a better way, then it's a choice of worship that satisfies your soul and  who can come between you and your maker. 

Those are my thoughts . 

...What is the driving force for the theology you have formulated in your christian walk . Some have even changed course after long years as they have come to see scripture differently as they previously had.
 

"Types are not supposed to be exact. Perhaps you might consider Job as a type of Christ and see if I'm right? I've never seen Christ as God either. For example, Jesus rejected being called 'good.'"

Soy Richard quote above.

In answer to you specific point, no, I don't believe that Jesus is God. I believe he was (is) the Son of God. I think the scriptures are clear that he was a man as we all are - sent of God to condemn sin in the flesh. I do not consider he was God in the flesh. I am confident I can deal with each verse(s) that people use to show/claim his divinity. You asked about his "before Abraham was, I am" claim. I have given my thoughts below. Before moving to that, let me also present a single question that no trinitarian has ever dealt with in a convincing manner.

If Jesus was God, where is the victory over the flesh? God cannot be tempted, true? James 1,13 Yet Jesus was tempted.

"Before Abraham was, I am."

i. This verse is readily misunderstood, as It was by the Jews with whom Jesus was in contention. The key to understanding what Jesus meant lies in taking it together with other scripture (see what follows)

ii. In these chapters in John, Jesus is arguing with the Jews who were implacably opposed to him. On the principle of 'catching the wise in their own craftiness' Jesus often responded in ways that he knew they would not understand. For example, in chapter 6, Jesus said to them, "the bread that I will give is my flesh" (v 51) which they completely misunderstood, saying, (v 52), "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

Now, to "Before Abraham was, I am."

1. This was part of Jesus' reply to their question, Art thou greater than our father Abraham?" (John 8:53). In replying to this Jesus clearly was not saying that he was alive before Abraham, because he then said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day." (v 56). Abraham, to whom the gospel was preached (Galatians 3:8), was looking forward, not back, to the day of Christ. He saw it with the eye of faith, and "was glad." Jesus was yet to come See '2 - 4'' which follows.

2. God's whole purpose, not only with Christ but also with the world and the men and women upon it . was all formulated before He even began His creative work. The apostle Peter, speaking of Christ, says,

He "verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."(1 Peter 1:20). He was in the mind and purpose of God right from the beginning, but only appeared following his birth of Mary. John says in well known words, "And the Word" (logos - purpose) "was made flesh, and dwelt among us"(John114).  God's purpose from before the foundation of the world took a massive step forward with the birth of Christ.

3. We read in Revelation of "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."(ch 13:8). This was in God's purpose right from the beginning, but it did not of course happen until his crucifiction some 4000 years later!

4. Paul speaks of the brethren and sisters at Ephesus in these terms,

   "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world . . ."(Eph.1:4). and then to Timothy, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, .not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."(2 Tim.1:10).  Manifestly we have not existed from all eternity, but certainly were in the mind and purpose of God from the beginning..

It is with these scriptures in mind that we conclude that when Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am" he was pointing out that their father, Abraham, lived some 2000 years earlier, but that the whole purpose of God centred in him, was foreordained before the foundation of the world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...