"Gematria and the number of the Beast 666"

[Guest shiloh357]

If Preterism, partical preterism or amillenialism were true, the world should be getting better. Rather, what we see is a world steadily getting worse, just as the Bible says.

For anyone to argue that we are living NOW in the millennial reign of Christ, or as preterists argue, the New Heavens and New Earth, it demonstrates a severely poor handling of Scripture. If this is Messianic reign of Christ as described in Scripture, it is a colossal failure.

[Guest shiloh357]

I never said Nero was 'the antichrist', YOU say I did. Go through all of my posts on the subject, I have never stated Nero was the antichrist. Nero can't be the antichrist BECAUSE NERO WAS DEAD BEFORE ANY ANTICHRISTS CAME ON THE SCENE.

Actually, you have come across as supporting the notion that Nero fulfilled that role.

Gemetria was very common in the ancient world where numbers and letters had certain values. Kaballa came about as I know it from Spanish Jews. They do have similarities. But Gematria isn't occultic. It's an ancient alpha-numeric system. Kaballa is a type of gematria, but gematria is not exclusively kaballa.

Sorry Bold Believer, but you are wrong. Gematria is first mentioned in the ancient mashnaic tractate of Pirke Avot. It goes back to the 2nd century and is the only tractate of the Mishna that is not about Jewish law/tradition.

It is not exclusively kabbala today because new age and other occultic groups have essentially hijacked it for their purposes, but whatever form it takes, it is always associated with occultism.

That some Christian author tries to drum up some sensationism by appeal to this occultic system, speaks poorly of the article and disqualifies it as a legitmately Christian perspective on eschatology.

If you can't vote for a Mormon, you should have the spiritual sensitivety to reject an article that employs occultism.

[Bold Believer]

Do you ever get the feeling that you're reading things from two totally different worlds?

Not worlds, but belief systems. Pre-millennialism has so suppressed any other eschatology that no one from any other belief system gets any play. Christian bookstores are filled with pre-mil stuff, but do you ever see any books on the other eschatologies. Ever heard of a-millennialism? Post-millennialism? If you have, chances are, it's only been in passing, and chances it was mentioned in a pre-mil/dispensationalist writing as something to be dismissed or not taken seriously. If someone writes anything other pre-mil pre-trib rapture type stuff, it's certainly not displayed where it can be picked up and examined. Any fiction about the End is...Pre-Mil and usually pre-trib rapturist. With the deck stacked like that, I'm not surprised. Do I think it's a conspiracy? No, but when only one side has presented their information, what do we expect?

When is the last time anyone ever heard of David Chilton? Gary Demar? Jay Adams (as other than the counseling-book writer)? G. Eldon Ladd? (Rev Ladd is long deceased and his book may be hard to get hold for that reason) Lorraine Boettner? And what do these men all have in common? They're not rapture teachers. If all you eat is carrots, don't be surprised if your skin turns orange.

You've exposed your bias and the reason for trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

There is only one Truth and it's written in the Word of God for all to see and understand.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.

IF you are reading extra-biblical stuff, then don't be surprised that your "theories" are extra-Biblical and people call you on it.

Apparently, the catching away of the church is such an offense to some (just as it is to the devil) that people will grasp on to anything else that comes along. (Kind of like the creation vs evolution debate - you know what is at the heart of that, right?)

The Biblical fact is that the catching away of the church is going to happen at the very beginning of Christ's return, followed by His outpouring of wrath in the form of the trumpets, beasts, and bowls and then He will come with the armies of heaven to destroy the evil.

Pre-tribulation rapturism is incorrect. It has bad exegesis. But the Day will declare itself. The Church has always had pre-millennial believers as far back as the first century. The secret rapture has only had adherents since 1830 or so.

Josephus is extra Biblical in the proper sense of the term, is it wrong to consult his history of the 70AD events? He WAS there after all.

It's never wrong to confirm Scripture with historical fact. After all, history IS His Story, isn't it?

Gematria is NOT occultic. Kabbala is from what I know of it. Kabbala is a gematrical system. That does not condemn gematria as a whole. Ancient alpha-numerical systems merely assign numerical values to certain letters. There is nothing satanic or sinister about that at all.

And as for whether or not I am preterist, I've already answered that. Where they're correct, I agree with them.

And someone is confusing preterism with historical post-millennialism. HPM is the system that believes Christ will take over the world. But they ignore the Rev 20 portion of Scripture that states that the millennium has an end.

The understanding of the millennium is something for another thread altogether.

What I object to Cobalt, is your insisting that I am a full preterist. I have told you and others numerous times, A FULL PRETERIST BELIEVES JESUS CAME IN 70 AD. I DON'T. Kindly get that through your head. It will make things a lot simpler.

And there are no sour grapes regarding whose eschatology gets front row. It's true. We never see anything other than rapturism in the book stores. That doesn't mean it's true. Frankly, it's a crock of baloney.

[joi]

Quote OneLight

To think that all that is coming was in the past is sad. You will awaken one day to see how wrong you are, though I wish all that was left was for the New Heaven and New Earth to appear, this is still over 1000 years away.

Over 1000 years away? How do you figure this one please?

[ENOCH2010]

Quote OneLight

To think that all that is coming was in the past is sad. You will awaken one day to see how wrong you are, though I wish all that was left was for the New Heaven and New Earth to appear, this is still over 1000 years away.

Over 1000 years away? How do you figure this one please?

The new heaven and new earth don't appear until after the millennial reign of Christ. Sorry for butting in,but I knew the answer to that one

[OneLight]

Quote OneLight

To think that all that is coming was in the past is sad. You will awaken one day to see how wrong you are, though I wish all that was left was for the New Heaven and New Earth to appear, this is still over 1000 years away.

Over 1000 years away? How do you figure this one please?

This rather simple, really. Jesus, after His return, reigns for 1000 years. You can read this in Revelation 20.

Then, after the Great White Throne Judgment (last chapter of Revelation 20) we read that the new heaven and new earth will come, which can be read about in the first chapter of Revelation 21.

[Bold Believer]

Pre-tribulation rapturism is incorrect. It has bad exegesis. But the Day will declare itself. The Church has always had pre-millennial believers as far back as the first century. The secret rapture has only had adherents since 1830 or so.

Patently false and this is what happens when someone subsists on a diet of someone as theologically schizophrenic as Gary DeMar. First of all, as you already know, despite your red herring, there is nothing about the Rapture that is going to be "secret." The world is going to notice millions of people suddenly gone into thin air and those in charge will have to formulate an excuse for this occurance. The pre-millennial doctrine is as old as the church, since it is what Paul taught. You've heard of Paul, right? There are other written records of a pre-millennial rapture being taught as far back as the 4th century, but keep listening to your bitter preterist teachers.

Josephus is extra Biblical in the proper sense of the term, is it wrong to consult his history of the 70AD events? He WAS there after all.

It's never wrong to confirm Scripture with historical fact. After all, history IS His Story, isn't it?

It's wrong when you use it to bolster a weak eschatological position. All you should need is the Bible for any biblical doctrine.

Gematria is NOT occultic. Kabbala is from what I know of it. Kabbala is a gematrical system. That does not condemn gematria as a whole. Ancient alpha-numerical systems merely assign numerical values to certain letters. There is nothing satanic or sinister about that at all.

Gematria comes from Kabbalah. What part of that do you not understand? You can keep saying it isn't occultic over and over, but you are only convincing yourself. God condemns all forms of the occult no matter where they come from. That would include Gematria. Not to mention that attempting to use it in regards to nero and the whole "666" thing makes your assertions incredibly lame.

And as for whether or not I am preterist, I've already answered that. Where they're correct, I agree with them.

And someone is confusing preterism with historical post-millennialism. HPM is the system that believes Christ will take over the world. But they ignore the Rev 20 portion of Scripture that states that the millennium has an end.

The understanding of the millennium is something for another thread altogether.

What I object to Cobalt, is your insisting that I am a full preterist. I have told you and others numerous times, A FULL PRETERIST BELIEVES JESUS CAME IN 70 AD. I DON'T. Kindly get that through your head. It will make things a lot simpler.

And as I have asked repeatedly, show me a post where I called you a full preterist. Give me the post number or drop it. Quit pouting and let your doctrine stand or fall without the pathetic cries of being a victim.

And there are no sour grapes regarding whose eschatology gets front row. It's true. We never see anything other than rapturism in the book stores. That doesn't mean it's true. Frankly, it's a crock of baloney.

As has been told to you many times, there is a clear guideline already in place for how prophecy is fulfilled and that is literally in provable, verifiable and witnessable ways. Not allegorical. Not spiritual. Not ephemeral. In your eschatology, for some reason in 70AD, with no warning from God, or Jesus, or the Apostles, that method of fulfillment suddenly changes. And it changes to favor your doctrine. That's pretty convenient. Convenient, but 100% wrong. Pre, mid, or post trib doctrine, pre-millennial, amillennial, or post-millennial doesn't figure in to it. The laws for prophetic fulfillment don't suddenly change, so there is no way for you, or anyone else to be able to support all this junk that you said happened or was fulfilled in 70 AD.

And I see you are still ignoring the little item of "the mark." Surprise. Ever going to get around to explaining that one?

I have explained the mark more than once. You and those like you ignore it. You're so steeped in lies, you don't want to listen to the truth. I've no intention of repeating myself for the sake of seeing myself type.

Witnessable? Josephus IS the most reliable witness we have OUTSIDE of what is in the Scripture. Everything must be confirmed by two or three witnesses (or more).

I don't know Mr. DeMarr. I have skimmed one of his books. I don't read him all the time. He's not the only non premillennialist I've read. Frankly I think both Chilton and Gentry give better explanations than he. If you want to believe pre-millennialism, have at it. But you're believing something Scripture doesn't completely support.

Pre-trib teaching only has been around a little while. The concepts of partial preterism and historical post-millennialism have been around far longer. Pre-mill teaching has been around since the early Church, but it was always post-trib.

What I believe will prove itself in the end. Your belief system won't stand, because it's built on bad exegesis and false assumptions. It's an unclear trumpet.

[joi]

Quote OneLight

To think that all that is coming was in the past is sad. You will awaken one day to see how wrong you are, though I wish all that was left was for the New Heaven and New Earth to appear, this is still over 1000 years away.

Over 1000 years away? How do you figure this one please?

Please forgive me for not thinking! I was not thinking of the millennium here, which is obvious.

Thank you for the reminder. You to Cobalt.

I am not amillennium.

[MorningGlory]

What I believe will prove itself in the end. Your belief system won't stand, because it's built on bad exegesis and false assumptions. It's an unclear trumpet.

You can't say this to other believers, B.B., because the only 'belief system' that matters is God's. Salvation doesn't hinge on one's interpretation of Revelation but, rather, on belief in the Messiah. I'm pretty sure that everyone here is a follower of Jesus......arguing pre-, mid- or post-trib is like arguing about whether a rose is white, eggshell or ecru. It's not relevant and everyone's view should be respected. If the only purpose is to be 'right'......all of us who believe in Him are already there.

[Bold Believer]

What I believe will prove itself in the end. Your belief system won't stand, because it's built on bad exegesis and false assumptions. It's an unclear trumpet.

You can't say this to other believers, B.B., because the only 'belief system' that matters is God's. Salvation doesn't hinge on one's interpretation of Revelation but, rather, on belief in the Messiah. I'm pretty sure that everyone here is a follower of Jesus......arguing pre-, mid- or post-trib is like arguing about whether a rose is white, eggshell or ecru. It's not relevant and everyone's view should be respected. If the only purpose is to be 'right'......all of us who believe in Him are already there.

The purpose isn't to be right, the purpose is to show correct teaching from incorrect. I have no doubt that my belief system has errors I haven't found. EVERY belief system has errors. You are correct that the only thing that matters in the end is what God has decreed. I don't think that anyoen who believes pre-millennial teaching is unsaved, but they are certainly missing what the Scriptures have to say in their proper context. And yes, EVERYONE'S view should be respected. I haven't received that respect. I am just assumed to be automatically wrong because my understanding doesn't line up with what's popular, and yes, I resent that. I'd like to see believers go to Preterist Archive (it covers both partial and full preterism) and actually read what some of the early Believers and others believed. They might be surprised.