Guest shiloh357 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Gematria is not really reliable. It is part of Jewish occultism and I would be promoting an article that depends on something like that. Don't know why you are hanging your hat on Nero. Hadrian, Marcus Areilius and other Caesars after Nero were far, far worse. You are confusing gematria with kabbala. The two are different. They may have been worse, but they don't fit the parameters of the prophecy, Nero DOES. Also, their names do not add up to 666. No I am not. Gematria comes from Jewish mysticism and is employed by Kabbalists. All of the major kabbalists employ Gematira. It is occultic and no Christian should be using it to interpret Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 17, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 17, 2012 Why does this person have to be someone from out past when this person, more then likely, is someone in our future; someone we have not heard of yet. Because a preterist has to make it someone in the past. Nero is not the antichrist, does not fit the description, was just another ruler, but preterists prop him up on a stick like he was the Holy Grail of preterism. Sir, I have told you and others that I am not a preterist. I'm getting sick and tired of you telling me what I am. I know what I believe. You WILL stop or I WILL have you censured. Plain and simple. Doesn't matter what you are, Nero was not the anti-Christ and so far you multiple attempts to prove he was have failed to convince anyone. And by the way, you can't get anyone censured, so you can drop the threats. I think he was talking about putting someone on ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted January 17, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,134 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 17, 2012 Nero is out Rev 16:13,14 - Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs, they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast (666), and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are the spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world...... v16 - Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. Rev 19:20 - But the beast (666) was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf.... The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. History says that Nero committed suicide. Yet Scripture says the the beast (666) is thrown alive into the Lake of Fire, and this just before the Battle of Armageddon. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted January 17, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 The one whose name added up to 666 had to be someone recognizable to the audience to whom John was writing. That man is Nero. Out of curiosity, do you believe that chapter 13 of Revelation was only meant for the people of that time, or do you believe there are future aspects yet to come? Yes, it speaks of Nero. It tells exactly what he did. It tells us that his name equals 666. There are future aspects to come for US. They are all in Ch 20. John has just given a capsule history of the First Advent in Ch 12. He is showing things as the Spirit is giving them to him. The first 2 verses describe Rome in Danielic terms. You can compare the fourth beast of Daniel to the one in Rev 13 and you get the SAME COUNTRY. Then in v 3, the Spirit has John break it down to one of the heads: Nero. John tells us that Nero kills himself, but he describes some of the things that Nero did in his lifetime too. He DID in fact persecute the Church for 42 months and briefly overcome them. But after his death, the Empire nearly fell apart. There were several contenders to the emperor's throne (three or four if I recall). Vespasian eventually gained control. (General Titus was Vespasian's son, incidentally.) What most evangelical Believers fail to realize is that Revelation is primarily about God's punishment of apostate Israel. It's the fulfillment of Daniel 9 and also the things of which Jesus spoke in Mt 22-23-24, and also the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28-32 and numerous others places where God says he's going to punish Jerusalem for her sins. Are there future implications? Yes. And they are all in Ch 20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted January 17, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 You are confusing gematria with kabbala. The two are different. They may have been worse, but they don't fit the parameters of the prophecy, Nero DOES. Also, their names do not add up to 666. I looked this up because I didn't know what Gematria was. The point goes to shiloh. Gematria is associated with kabbala. It's part of it. So you are using kabbalistic, occult systems to demonstrate that Nero was the antichrist. Wow. I wonder what God would have to say about that? Or do I get threatened with censure for pointing that out? If you are going to keep trying to pedal the old, (and patently false) chestnut that Nero was the antichrist, your going to have to demonstrate things you have repeatedly been asked to demonstrate before, and have so far ignored and failed to demonstrate. You are going to have to demonstrate what the mark was. It isn't figurative and it isn't some spiritual thing. It is a literal mark on the forehead or the right hand. You are going to have to demonstrate that he set up some kind of abomination in the Temple. You are going to have to illustate who the false prophet was. You are going to have to demonstrate what the image set up which speaks and commands worship was. Etc. Etc. Etc. Take your time. I never said Nero was 'the antichrist', YOU say I did. Go through all of my posts on the subject, I have never stated Nero was the antichrist. Nero can't be the antichrist BECAUSE NERO WAS DEAD BEFORE ANY ANTICHRISTS CAME ON THE SCENE. Gemetria was very common in the ancient world where numbers and letters had certain values. Kaballa came about as I know it from Spanish Jews. They do have similarities. But Gematria isn't occultic. It's an ancient alpha-numeric system. Kaballa is a type of gematria, but gematria is not exclusively kaballa. Revelation is filled with images from the Old Testament. Sometimes the Spirit has John reverse the images to get his point across. The mark of the beast is one of those. It's the antithesis of the Mark of God from Deuteronomy 6. God tells his people to have His words on their heads and on their foreheads. Now, apostate Israel has abandoned the True God and gone off to worship the Roman Beast. So instead of God's Word being in their minds and the motivation for their deeds, they obey Rome. Rome in effect becomes their defacto god...and Rome gets her power from the Dragon (Satan). So, who are these apostates REALLY worshiping? The devil. I have explained this more fully in another place. If you want to know what I wrote, look it up. And I am not threatening. If you keep telling me I am doing something I'm not, I will go to those in charge and ask them to deal with you. You keep doing this publicly, so I am responding publicly. I am not a full preterist. I never have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 17, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 17, 2012 The one whose name added up to 666 had to be someone recognizable to the audience to whom John was writing. That man is Nero. Out of curiosity, do you believe that chapter 13 of Revelation was only meant for the people of that time, or do you believe there are future aspects yet to come? Yes, it speaks of Nero. It tells exactly what he did. It tells us that his name equals 666. There are future aspects to come for US. They are all in Ch 20. John has just given a capsule history of the First Advent in Ch 12. He is showing things as the Spirit is giving them to him. The first 2 verses describe Rome in Danielic terms. You can compare the fourth beast of Daniel to the one in Rev 13 and you get the SAME COUNTRY. Then in v 3, the Spirit has John break it down to one of the heads: Nero. John tells us that Nero kills himself, but he describes some of the things that Nero did in his lifetime too. He DID in fact persecute the Church for 42 months and briefly overcome them. But after his death, the Empire nearly fell apart. There were several contenders to the emperor's throne (three or four if I recall). Vespasian eventually gained control. (General Titus was Vespasian's son, incidentally.) Where did John say that "Nero" killed himself? What most evangelical Believers fail to realize is that Revelation is primarily about God's punishment of apostate Israel. It's the fulfillment of Daniel 9 and also the things of which Jesus spoke in Mt 22-23-24, and also the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28-32 and numerous others places where God says he's going to punish Jerusalem for her sins. Are there future implications? Yes. And they are all in Ch 20. Revelation is all about Jesus, not the punishment of Israel. Still, there is much in Revelation 13 that you have been asked to show proof that it has indeed already taken place, and have yet done so. I see these events as taking place in the future. Nowhere in history have I seen it written that anyone had to receive a mark in order to buy or sell. Neither have I seen any one person have power over all the nations that they were forced to believe any one system and have never heard of any great signs performed by anyone. If you want anyone to know the truth as you understand it, you have to provide proof that what you believe is the truth. We who disagree have not seen you provide any proof when asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted January 17, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 29 Topic Count: 596 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,043 Content Per Day: 7.56 Reputation: 27,788 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted January 17, 2012 Do you ever get the feeling that you're reading things from two totally different worlds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted January 17, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 The one whose name added up to 666 had to be someone recognizable to the audience to whom John was writing. That man is Nero. Out of curiosity, do you believe that chapter 13 of Revelation was only meant for the people of that time, or do you believe there are future aspects yet to come? Yes, it speaks of Nero. It tells exactly what he did. It tells us that his name equals 666. There are future aspects to come for US. They are all in Ch 20. John has just given a capsule history of the First Advent in Ch 12. He is showing things as the Spirit is giving them to him. The first 2 verses describe Rome in Danielic terms. You can compare the fourth beast of Daniel to the one in Rev 13 and you get the SAME COUNTRY. Then in v 3, the Spirit has John break it down to one of the heads: Nero. John tells us that Nero kills himself, but he describes some of the things that Nero did in his lifetime too. He DID in fact persecute the Church for 42 months and briefly overcome them. But after his death, the Empire nearly fell apart. There were several contenders to the emperor's throne (three or four if I recall). Vespasian eventually gained control. (General Titus was Vespasian's son, incidentally.) Where did John say that "Nero" killed himself? What most evangelical Believers fail to realize is that Revelation is primarily about God's punishment of apostate Israel. It's the fulfillment of Daniel 9 and also the things of which Jesus spoke in Mt 22-23-24, and also the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28-32 and numerous others places where God says he's going to punish Jerusalem for her sins. Are there future implications? Yes. And they are all in Ch 20. Revelation is all about Jesus, not the punishment of Israel. Still, there is much in Revelation 13 that you have been asked to show proof that it has indeed already taken place, and have yet done so. I see these events as taking place in the future. Nowhere in history have I seen it written that anyone had to receive a mark in order to buy or sell. Neither have I seen any one person have power over all the nations that they were forced to believe any one system and have never heard of any great signs performed by anyone. If you want anyone to know the truth as you understand it, you have to provide proof that what you believe is the truth. We who disagree have not seen you provide any proof when asked. It is historical fact that Nero died of injuries suffered from a suicide attempt; it was SO sloppy an attempt, his secretary had to finish him off. This would have have been known in the Empire. Nero was one of Rome's heads, its leaders. So, given these things, yes, John tells that Nero killed himself. It is historical fact that Nero began persecuting Christians in 64AD and the persecution ended with his death by his own hand (with a little help) in 68 AD, a period of 42 months or 3.5 years using the 30 day calendar. This is what John refers to in the chapter when he says that the beast makes war on the saints and overcomes them. The title of the book tells us that Jesus is revealing something TO John. It's not about Jesus, but what Jesus reveals to John. And what He reveals is that the destruction of Jerusalem is about to begin. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John," Rev 1:1 What things? The impending destruction of Jerusalem for her sins. That's the why of the book. There are various warnings, the most notable of which were given by Jesus directly to the Jewish leaders in Mt 22 and 23. The Roman system demanded that Christians honor Caesar as Lord. Christians countered with 'Jesus is Lord' and those who did were beheaded for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted January 17, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Do you ever get the feeling that you're reading things from two totally different worlds? Not worlds, but belief systems. Pre-millennialism has so suppressed any other eschatology that no one from any other belief system gets any play. Christian bookstores are filled with pre-mil stuff, but do you ever see any books on the other eschatologies. Ever heard of a-millennialism? Post-millennialism? If you have, chances are, it's only been in passing, and chances it was mentioned in a pre-mil/dispensationalist writing as something to be dismissed or not taken seriously. If someone writes anything other pre-mil pre-trib rapture type stuff, it's certainly not displayed where it can be picked up and examined. Any fiction about the End is...Pre-Mil and usually pre-trib rapturist. With the deck stacked like that, I'm not surprised. Do I think it's a conspiracy? No, but when only one side has presented their information, what do we expect? When is the last time anyone ever heard of David Chilton? Gary Demar? Jay Adams (as other than the counseling-book writer)? G. Eldon Ladd? (Rev Ladd is long deceased and his book may be hard to get hold for that reason) Lorraine Boettner? And what do these men all have in common? They're not rapture teachers. If all you eat is carrots, don't be surprised if your skin turns orange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 17, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 17, 2012 The one whose name added up to 666 had to be someone recognizable to the audience to whom John was writing. That man is Nero. Out of curiosity, do you believe that chapter 13 of Revelation was only meant for the people of that time, or do you believe there are future aspects yet to come? Yes, it speaks of Nero. It tells exactly what he did. It tells us that his name equals 666. There are future aspects to come for US. They are all in Ch 20. John has just given a capsule history of the First Advent in Ch 12. He is showing things as the Spirit is giving them to him. The first 2 verses describe Rome in Danielic terms. You can compare the fourth beast of Daniel to the one in Rev 13 and you get the SAME COUNTRY. Then in v 3, the Spirit has John break it down to one of the heads: Nero. John tells us that Nero kills himself, but he describes some of the things that Nero did in his lifetime too. He DID in fact persecute the Church for 42 months and briefly overcome them. But after his death, the Empire nearly fell apart. There were several contenders to the emperor's throne (three or four if I recall). Vespasian eventually gained control. (General Titus was Vespasian's son, incidentally.) Where did John say that "Nero" killed himself? What most evangelical Believers fail to realize is that Revelation is primarily about God's punishment of apostate Israel. It's the fulfillment of Daniel 9 and also the things of which Jesus spoke in Mt 22-23-24, and also the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28-32 and numerous others places where God says he's going to punish Jerusalem for her sins. Are there future implications? Yes. And they are all in Ch 20. Revelation is all about Jesus, not the punishment of Israel. Still, there is much in Revelation 13 that you have been asked to show proof that it has indeed already taken place, and have yet done so. I see these events as taking place in the future. Nowhere in history have I seen it written that anyone had to receive a mark in order to buy or sell. Neither have I seen any one person have power over all the nations that they were forced to believe any one system and have never heard of any great signs performed by anyone. If you want anyone to know the truth as you understand it, you have to provide proof that what you believe is the truth. We who disagree have not seen you provide any proof when asked. It is historical fact that Nero died of injuries suffered from a suicide attempt; it was SO sloppy an attempt, his secretary had to finish him off. This would have have been known in the Empire. Nero was one of Rome's heads, its leaders. So, given these things, yes, John tells that Nero killed himself. It is historical fact that Nero began persecuting Christians in 64AD and the persecution ended with his death by his own hand (with a little help) in 68 AD, a period of 42 months or 3.5 years using the 30 day calendar. This is what John refers to in the chapter when he says that the beast makes war on the saints and overcomes them. Point is, you claimed that John spoke of Neros death. Your exact words are "John tells us that Nero kills himself, but he describes some of the things that Nero did in his lifetime too". Where in Revelation is this information? The title of the book tells us that Jesus is revealing something TO John. It's not about Jesus, but what Jesus reveals to John. And what He reveals is that the destruction of Jerusalem is about to begin. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John," Rev 1:1 What things? The impending destruction of Jerusalem for her sins. That's the why of the book. There are various warnings, the most notable of which were given by Jesus directly to the Jewish leaders in Mt 22 and 23. The Roman system demanded that Christians honor Caesar as Lord. Christians countered with 'Jesus is Lord' and those who did were beheaded for it. I disagree with you as to why Revelation was written. It was not written only to expose what will happen to Israel, but to the whole world, while Israel is center stage. This is a revelation of what Jesus did, is doing and will do. If you think it is just about Israel, you are missing a lot. To think that all that is coming was in the past is sad. You will awaken one day to see how wrong you are, though I wish all that was left was for the New Heaven and New Earth to appear, this is still over 1000 years away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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