Margret Mcdonald and the Pre-Trib Origins

[Massorite]

The story of the development of pre-tribulationism as we know it today is a tangled one. From its inception in the early 1800s, there has been a deliberate attempt to cover up its origins. This has been perpetrated along two lines of ‘revisionism.’ One was to hide the real origin of pre-tribulationism in 19th century Scotland, and attribute it to John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. The other has been a recent attempt to selectively quote and misrepresent ancient Christian documents to make it appear early Christians were pre-trib. The purpose of this article is to document a timeline of the major events in the development of this relatively new prophetic viewpoint.

Some time in June of 1830 and out of the spectacle of alleged latter-day Holy Spirit outpouring in Scotland and England, the first documented evidence of a pre-tribulation rapture articulated in the form of a letter written by Margaret MacDonald, sister of James and George MacDonald of Port Glasgow. In March or April of 1830, after being ill and bed-ridden for about 18 months, Margaret claimed to have seen a series of visions of the coming of the Lord. She wrote down these visions and sent a copy to Edward Irving who pastored a Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) congregation in London. A month later Irving claimed in a private letter that Margaret’s visions had a

huge impact on him. The outstanding feature of Margaret’s visions was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on a elite group within the Church,

combined with a secret rapture before the revealing of the Antichrist. She saw only these “Spirit filled” Christians “taken”

to be with the Lord, while the rest of the Church without this experience would be left to be purged in the tribulation.

Here is the letter Margaret MacDonald wrote to Edward Irving.

“It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just `no God.’ I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men’s hearts failing them for fear - now look out for the sign of the Son of man. Here I was made to stop and cry out. 0 it is not known what the sign of the Son of man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst

upon me with a glorious light I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man. even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father’s glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but ’tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, "Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.’ ‘But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.’ This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. ’Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - ‘tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. - But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the glorious in breaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must be, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains,

but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I felt as Elijah surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun, that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - But the trial of real faith will be found to honor and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - or it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God’s truth and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted

worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will be outward trial too, but `tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within - be clay in the hands of the potter - submit to be filled, filled with God This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the lamb. I saw It to be the will of

God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people was their turning from Jesus who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enter in he shall find pasture. They were passing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God. When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God’s holiness, and ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross, I saw that night,

and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy image seen in his people just the bride made comely, by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen. Even so come Lord Jesus.”

NOTE: Some pre-trib authors have tried to debunk Margaret’s contribution to pre-tribulationism by claiming she was actually post-trib. They point to the statements where she speaks of Christians being tried in the tribulation. However, they fail to recognize that she was only speaking of a secret rapture of an elite group of saints, and not the whole Church.

Therefore, she spoke of BOTH a secret pre-trib rapture AND Christians being tried in the tribulation, and according to the Pre-trib theology there will be Christians in both the "secret rapture" and the tribulation period. From the letter that Margaret MacDonald wrote and Mr.

Edward Irving’s interpretation of that letter, comes the false doctrinal teaching of the pre-tribulation Resurrection. But as we can see from the letter. There is nothing spoken of about any Revival brought on by the 144,000 who are supposed to travel around the world evangelizing and creating another body of Christ after the first body of Christ has already been taken

out of this world. We can also see from the letter that the parable of the Ten Virgins has been misinterpreted because in that parable (Matthew 25:1-13) the bible says that after the resurrection occurs the door will be shut and when the five foolish virgins realize that they have been left behind to suffer for their unbelief. Jesus tells them that he does not know them. No where in that parable does it speak of any second chance or any seven year tribulation period or any pre-tribulation resurrection.

From the letter that Margaret MacDonald wrote and Mr. Edward Irving’s interpretation of that letter, comes the false doctrinal teaching of the pre-tribulation Resurrection. But as we can see from the letter. There is nothing spoken of about any Revival brought on by the 144,000 who are supposed to travel around the world evangelizing and creating another body of Christ after the first body of Christ has already been taken out of this world. We can also see from the letter that the parable of the Ten Virgins has been misinterpreted because in that parable (Matthew 25:1-13) the bible says that after the resurrection occurs the door will be shut and when the five foolish virgins realize that they have been left behind to suffer for their unbelief. Jesus tells them that he does not know them. No where in that parable does it speak of any second chance or any seven year tribulation period or any pre-tribulation resurrection.

In any case this is how the Pre-Tribulation theology as we know it to day came to be and it,s origins came from a sick and delirious woman

[Guest]

Another Look

It is clear that the early church immediately following the apostles held to a premillennial view of Christ's coming to earth. These theologians embraced two key truths concerning Christ's return to earth. The idea of an any moment return and a coming of Christ to rule as the political and spiritual king over the world were advocated by many of the earliest theologians. Here is a partial list of some of the theologians who embraced the doctrine of imminency and/or the future kingdom rule of Christ:

http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918

[Guest]

The OP is so badly formatted that I can't read it.

Just an observation, not a drive by.

[Guest]

The entirety of the Church will go in the Pri-Trib rapture. That does not included those who are fakers or those who have never really admitted that they need a savior and that they needed to ask Jesus Christ to save them, and those who believe that they are somehow saved because they were "baptized" when they were infants. They will be the ones who will become saved after the Rapture, those who will not have the Holy Spirit living in them as the Church does now. They are the ones who will give up their lives for Christ by refusing the mark of the Beast.

One of the things God is going to do while restoring Israel after the rapture is to provide a way for the remnant of men, including Gentiles, to seek Him (Acts. 15:17). Evidence that this is true can be found in Rev. 7:9 which describes a multitude of post rapture believers that no one could count, coming from every nation, tribe, people and language and arriving in Heaven. This tells us that many of these believers will be gentiles, saved out of Daniel’s 70th Week before the Great Tribulation begins.

This leads me to believe this great multitude of believers will have come to faith primarily because of the rapture. They will have heard the gospel but, neither accepting or rejecting it, will have put off making a decision until it’s too late. The rapture will remove the final obstacle to their conversion, providing confirmation that you and I were right in what we tried to tell them.

[Guest]

Gee, isn't that what I said?

[Zemke]

On this topic I like to exhort brothers and sisters to continue reading. With every locked in Idea when it comes to the end, no mater how much scripture, There is always something in the scriptures to cast a possibility to reconsider a few things. It's the nature of end time literature. We will see clearer and clearly the closer we approach "the time of the end".

As a type take Rahab, a Gentile women taken out during a period of time involving sevens, silence and trumpets. How all these things work is something a few teachers may be starting to get a handle on but who knows. Just a simple observation.

The early church dedicated themselves to prayer and the apostles doctrine, we need to simply do the same. "Watch and pray" "Seal these things up until the time of the end" "Only the wise will understand" "Watch and pray"

"Work while it is the day, night comes when no man can work."

The resurrection/rapture is in Micah and a clear picture of people in the world witnessing it during a time of trouble, a time of darkness, talk about knowing it is to late, and then they are destroyed. But dispensationaly taught people can't grasp it, we read the prophets with a strict separation of Gentile, Jewish, tribulation saint mind set. Oh for the blindness we have brought on ourselves by not taking things further. I believe if the early writers of dispensational theology were around today they would alter their stance. Simply because of much time passing.

I once told my pastor, when I started questioning these things, to "simply cross off with a black marker everything that was Jewish so we could have a bible to read more easily." Over a period of time so much scripture had become Jewish that reading was not really a thing to do. Showing up and serving was it. A cult like wierdness. Show up and shut up. The only thing left for us was the rapture. That was more than ten years ago.

I was a solid believer in the pre trib but now I watch and pray.

Edited February 12, 2012 by ZEMKE

[Zemke]

I do believe in the pre-tribulation rapture of those who are saved, and watching and waiting on Jesus return. At the same time, I recognize that this is open to interpretation, meaning that any one of us could be wrong. If Jesus doesn't return, and we see a peace treaty brokered by the anti-Christ between Israel and the Palestinians, it will not shake my faith. I will just understand who this deceiver really is, and the importance of rejecting his mark. I will know that we are in for very tough times, and only through trust in God will we be able to get through it, either with his divine help, or as a martyr. If I am correct about the rapture, and I am ready to go, I won't have to worry about it. Luke 21:34-36

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

"and cares of this life" is a big one. If you think about it, just about every deception in some way gets us to hope or depend on this life, our ability, our strength our own understanding.

[pilgrim49]

The story of the development of pre-tribulationism as we know it today is a tangled one. From its inception in the early 1800s, there has been a deliberate attempt to cover up its origins. This has been perpetrated along two lines of ‘revisionism.’ One was to hide the real origin of pre-tribulationism in 19th century Scotland, and attribute it to John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. The other has been a recent attempt to selectively quote and misrepresent ancient Christian documents to make it appear early Christians were pre-trib. The purpose of this article is to document a timeline of the major events in the development of this relatively new prophetic viewpoint.

Some time in June of 1830 and out of the spectacle of alleged latter-day Holy Spirit outpouring in Scotland and England, the first documented evidence of a pre-tribulation rapture articulated in the form of a letter written by Margaret MacDonald, sister of James and George MacDonald of Port Glasgow. In March or April of 1830, after being ill and bed-ridden for about 18 months, Margaret claimed to have seen a series of visions of the coming of the Lord. She wrote down these visions and sent a copy to Edward Irving who pastored a Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) congregation in London. A month later Irving claimed in a private letter that Margaret’s visions had a

huge impact on him. The outstanding feature of Margaret’s visions was an outpouring of the Holy Spirit on a elite group within the Church,

combined with a secret rapture before the revealing of the Antichrist. She saw only these “Spirit filled” Christians “taken”

to be with the Lord, while the rest of the Church without this experience would be left to be purged in the tribulation.

Here is the letter Margaret MacDonald wrote to Edward Irving.

“It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just `no God.’ I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men’s hearts failing them for fear - now look out for the sign of the Son of man. Here I was made to stop and cry out. 0 it is not known what the sign of the Son of man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst

upon me with a glorious light I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man. even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father’s glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but ’tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, "Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.’ ‘But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.’ This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. ’Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - ‘tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. - But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the glorious in breaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must be, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains,

but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I felt as Elijah surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun, that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - But the trial of real faith will be found to honor and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth, and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - or it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God’s truth and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted

worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will be outward trial too, but `tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within - be clay in the hands of the potter - submit to be filled, filled with God This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the lamb. I saw It to be the will of

God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people was their turning from Jesus who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enter in he shall find pasture. They were passing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God. When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God’s holiness, and ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross, I saw that night,

and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy image seen in his people just the bride made comely, by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen. Even so come Lord Jesus.”

NOTE: Some pre-trib authors have tried to debunk Margaret’s contribution to pre-tribulationism by claiming she was actually post-trib. They point to the statements where she speaks of Christians being tried in the tribulation. However, they fail to recognize that she was only speaking of a secret rapture of an elite group of saints, and not the whole Church.

Therefore, she spoke of BOTH a secret pre-trib rapture AND Christians being tried in the tribulation, and according to the Pre-trib theology there will be Christians in both the "secret rapture" and the tribulation period. From the letter that Margaret MacDonald wrote and Mr.

Edward Irving’s interpretation of that letter, comes the false doctrinal teaching of the pre-tribulation Resurrection. But as we can see from the letter. There is nothing spoken of about any Revival brought on by the 144,000 who are supposed to travel around the world evangelizing and creating another body of Christ after the first body of Christ has already been taken

out of this world. We can also see from the letter that the parable of the Ten Virgins has been misinterpreted because in that parable (Matthew 25:1-13) the bible says that after the resurrection occurs the door will be shut and when the five foolish virgins realize that they have been left behind to suffer for their unbelief. Jesus tells them that he does not know them. No where in that parable does it speak of any second chance or any seven year tribulation period or any pre-tribulation resurrection.

From the letter that Margaret MacDonald wrote and Mr. Edward Irving’s interpretation of that letter, comes the false doctrinal teaching of the pre-tribulation Resurrection. But as we can see from the letter. There is nothing spoken of about any Revival brought on by the 144,000 who are supposed to travel around the world evangelizing and creating another body of Christ after the first body of Christ has already been taken out of this world. We can also see from the letter that the parable of the Ten Virgins has been misinterpreted because in that parable (Matthew 25:1-13) the bible says that after the resurrection occurs the door will be shut and when the five foolish virgins realize that they have been left behind to suffer for their unbelief. Jesus tells them that he does not know them. No where in that parable does it speak of any second chance or any seven year tribulation period or any pre-tribulation resurrection.

In any case this is how the Pre-Tribulation theology as we know it to day came to be and it,s origins came from a sick and delirious woman

Many of the opponents of the teaching of the rapture claim it is a new thing, a new invention by the Dispensationalists beginning in the 19th century. That it was not taught by anyone in the early church or by any of the established churches since then. Without realizing it they are making the point emphasized in this post, we do not make our doctrine from church teaching. That is where all the confusion began, and among others the same problem is still is still with us today in the arapture position.

If the rapture teaching began yesterday because someone found it in the Scriptures, does that mean it’s not believable or untrue? The trouble with most church doctrine comes from following the mistakes of the early church. Yet we are to believe that because the rapture is not found in their writing that is proof that it is not taught in the bible.

As to when the teaching came to be understood in the later times in the church, in the book of Daniel it is said:

But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase (Dan. 12:4).

Almost without exception, commentators explain the increase of knowledge as applying to scientific knowledge. But that is to completely divorce it from the context of what was being revealed to Daniel. Gabriel was speaking of knowledge being increased in the latter days concerning his people Israel because of a searching back and forth in the prophecies concerning the very things he had revealed to Daniel. And that was what Darby's teaching laid a foundation for. It was no less than simply believing the literal words of Scripture concerning the rapture and related things. The same phrase is found in Jer. 5:1 when God says of those who need understanding.

RUN to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem; See now and know; And seek in her open places If you can find a man, If there is anyone who executes judgment, Who seeks the truth, …

With the exception of who the person of Christ was, hardly anything can be found in the early church writings in the way of sound doctrine. So far as systematic theology is concerned, and especially eschatology, it was practically non-existent.

That was because of their method of teaching, and is still the method used today by most of what is called Christendom, and especially those who deny the rapture. They follow precisely the same method of teaching of those who couldn’t tell the difference between the rapture and the Second Advent judgments, and then complain that the early church didn’t teach it. To turn that around, the early church didn’t teach the rapture because they use the same method of teaching that today’s Arapturists' use.

With the allegorical method of refusing to accept the words of the prophets as literal but as parabolic, and the fact that the present assembly of Christ was the next established, it was easy to believe the church somehow had become the recipient of the promises made to Israel.

The Gentiles had accepted the same Savior that most of the Jews had rejected and murdered. Add to that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple without which the Jewish religion with sacrifices could be offered, and indeed the outward indications were that God had abandoned Israel as His people.

If that was true, then human logic would lead us to the inevitable conclusion that the church was some kind of “new Israel.” But since it was not a nation in the ordinary sense, then it must be a new spiritual Israel. As Barnabas, Justin, Irenaeus, and those afterwards taught, the nations (the church from all nations) as the new Israel had beaten their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks (Isa. 2:4; Mic. 4:3). Once their allegorizing had taken root, there was no end to where their fantasies would lead.

Consequently, if the church was Israel, then the church would have to go through the tribulation just as the prophets said. If that was true then there could be no rapture beforehand. Of course, they only believed the prophets when it fit their scheme. If they really believed them, they would not have said that the church had become the new Israel in the first place.

Whenever a passage didn’t suit their program, it was said to be a parable, then they could and did invent whatever explanation they desired. It was a common practice of Philo, Clement of Alexandria, Origen and most all those early leaders to say the God actually falsified Scriptures to hide the truth from the simple minded layman. The belief that the Scriptures were to be taken literally was looked upon as being crass and carnal and beneath the Divine, and remained so until the Reformation and is still very much with us today.

Beginning in the third century and the union of church and state under Constantine, it was soon the teaching that the church was the kingdom of God established on earth; especially through the teaching of Augustine (AD 354-430). Yet as in most things there are some exceptions. Even before then there were some who began to re-examine and search the Scriptures independently; such as the Latin leader Tertullian, who pleaded for religious liberty. Chrysostom (345-407) was deposed and banished in AD 403 for his lack of conformity. For a time nonconformity was corrected by persuasion or punished by excommunication.

However, with their newfound power of the state at their disposal, it was only a matter of time until more drastic measures were instituted to contain those they considered to be heretics, and a threat to their counterfeit adulterated kingdom. At first it was confiscation of property, floggings, and then executions. It was dangerous to teach anything other than what the church sanctioned, and with the soul searching especially of the Reformation many martyrs paid with their lives in some of the most horrible torments imaginable, and that in the name of God.

Peter’s successors supposedly had the keys to the kingdom and power to shut out anyone from heaven and consign them to eternal hell fire if they disagreed with the church. With such claims it can hardly be expected that they would teach the rapture of the church. They were quite comfortable with their manmade kingdom with the worldly riches and power it afforded the elite.

As to no rapture teaching in the ancient church, the discovery of what is plainly a reference to the rapture. Grant Jeffrey of Grant Jeffrey Ministries discovered the teaching about the pretriblulation rapture. It was found in the writings of what is said to be written in 393 AD by a Syrian church leader named Ephraem in a document called “Sermon by Pseudo Ephraem,” entitled “On the last times, the Anti-Christ and the end of the World.”

The statement by Ephraem that Grant Jeffery in particular brings attention to is as follows.

For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.

Of course the Arapture and Post-Tribulation people immediately came up with all kinds of denials of how it was some writer other than Ephraem, or written long after his time. And that it was only the belief of one man rather than a church doctrine. But it is a fact that he was one of the more notable church leaders of his day, having written many books and articles on a variety of things. Even if it was not written by Ephraem, it is still a clear testimony of the belief in the biblical teaching of the rapture, and that, many centuries before the teaching of Darby in the 19th century.

Because of their method of teaching and power of the state to enforce their edicts, it all but shut out any teaching of the Scriptures as having a literal meaning, especially if it concerned prophecy and was contrary to their doctrines. And it remained so until the Reformation when the reformers began a return to reason and the belief that perhaps they should re-examine the Scriptures, and understand them more literally.

Even though Luther and other reformers restored salvation through faith alone, and clarified many other things, still, because of the wholesale perversion of Scriptural truth for centuries, with the persecutions and just trying to stay alive, it was just too much to restore all that was so corrupted. Consequently, after the persecutions, there was a settling down with what had been accomplished and other truths would wait for another reformation.

That reformation was the return to even more literal understanding of Scriptures and the return to a serious study of prophecy. Eschatology in particular began to be seriously studied in the eighteenth century and is still in a state of refinement for the better. In truth it might be said that a second reformation began with such as John Nelson Darby and Dispensationalism in general. It could also perhaps be said in spite of some serious mistakes that Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is the beginning of a third reformation. Of them it is reportedly said to presently include over 300 congregations in America. The conclusions in this book is with a few notable exceptions very similar.

They who deny the rapture complain that it comes from a literal interpretation of the Scriptures. In so stating, they have shown themselves incapable of debating the issue. If a statement using normal words is not accepted as meaning what the writer said, then the only thing left is the inventions of those who deny what God has said. They have cast aside the only standard by which all conclusions must be decided which is the Holy Scriptures. If they ever read it they would do well to remember Paul’s statement to the Corinthians about his teaching (2 Cor. 1:13).

"...our dealings with you, have been absolutely aboveboard and sincere before God. They have not been marked by any worldly wisdom, but by the grace of God. Our letters to you have no double meaning-they mean just what you understand them to mean when you read them (Phillips translation).

…we mean by our letters nothing else than what you read in them and understand us to mean (Knox translation).

You don’t have to read between the lines of my letters; you can understand them (Moffatt. Translation).

How much more simple things would be if they would just listen to Paul, who said:

…I do not want you to be ignorant brethren,…

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

Dispensationalism and the rapture taught by John Nelson Darby has gained adherents ever since. All that was needed was someone to step out of the confines of church restrictions and search the Scriptures for themselves and follow their conscience and the teaching of the Holy Spirit. Institutional restrictions and the parabolical method of teaching was the primary problem with the church and is still the foremost impediment to the teaching of the rapture and sound biblical theology today.

In all the Scriptures that have any bearing on the end-time judgments, there is nothing that remotely suggests a judgment taking place in connection with the two passages in 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15 before the church saints are taken to heaven. That is one of the reasons the rapture was a mystery and completely separate from the Judgments at the Second Advent.

Apart from Enoch and Elijah the church rapture is the only event ever mentioned where living people are changed and taken to heaven. There are different resurrections where the Lord’s own are taken, but nothing resembling the rapture event. It is conspicuous that Paul is the only apostle or writer who mentions the rapture. The reason is simple, just like his gospel, the rapture, and this whole dispensation of grace, Paul said they were mysteries until reveiled to and taught by him and he said the others knew nothing about his gospel until he was sent to Jerusalem and explained it to them (Gal. 2:2, 7-8).

In His grace

pilgrim49

Edited February 28, 2012 by OneLight

[jasoncran]

so when the christians suffer in darfur and our slain. they get raptured?

isnt our lives his? i dont care all that how he comes. just be ready by doing his will, if i focus jesus instead of the ac will i be forgotten? if so then close your bibles and repent of your conversion as he is our source.

i may die tommorow, that said.. if this generation occured in 1948 as that is what i was taught and still hear in my church.. then what will happen when the lord doesnt return by say 2048?

[pilgrim49]

Many of the opponents of the teaching of the rapture claim it is a new thing, a new invention by the Dispensationalists beginning in the 19th century. That it was not taught by anyone in the early church or by any of the established churches since then. Without realizing it they are making the point emphasized in this post, we do not make our doctrine from church teaching. That is where all the confusion began, and among others the same problem is still is still with us today in the arapture position.

If the rapture teaching began yesterday because someone found it in the Scriptures, does that mean it’s not believable or untrue? The trouble with most church doctrine comes from following the mistakes of the early church. Yet we are to believe that because the rapture is not found in their writing that is proof that it is not taught in the bible.

As to when the teaching came to be understood in the later times in the church, in the book of Daniel it is said:

But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase (Dan. 12:4).

Almost without exception, commentators explain the increase of knowledge as applying to scientific knowledge. But that is to completely divorce it from the context of what was being revealed to Daniel. Gabriel was speaking of knowledge being increased in the latter days concerning his people Israel because of a searching back and forth in the prophecies concerning the very things he had revealed to Daniel. And that was what Darby's teaching laid a foundation for. It was no less than simply believing the literal words of Scripture concerning the rapture and related things. The same phrase is found in Jer. 5:1 when God says of those who need understanding.

RUN to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem; See now and know; And seek in her open places If you can find a man, If there is anyone who executes judgment, Who seeks the truth, …

With the exception of who the person of Christ was, hardly anything can be found in the early church writings in the way of sound doctrine. So far as systematic theology is concerned, and especially eschatology, it was practically non-existent.

That was because of their method of teaching, and is still the method used today by most of what is called Christendom, and especially those who deny the rapture. They follow precisely the same method of teaching of those who couldn’t tell the difference between the rapture and the Second Advent judgments, and then complain that the early church didn’t teach it. To turn that around, the early church didn’t teach the rapture because they use the same method of teaching that today’s Arapturists' use.

With the allegorical method of refusing to accept the words of the prophets as literal but as parabolic, and the fact that the present assembly of Christ was the next established, it was easy to believe the church somehow had become the recipient of the promises made to Israel.

The Gentiles had accepted the same Savior that most of the Jews had rejected and murdered. Add to that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple without which the Jewish religion with sacrifices could be offered, and indeed the outward indications were that God had abandoned Israel as His people.

If that was true, then human logic would lead us to the inevitable conclusion that the church was some kind of “new Israel.” But since it was not a nation in the ordinary sense, then it must be a new spiritual Israel. As Barnabas, Justin, Irenaeus, and those afterwards taught, the nations (the church from all nations) as the new Israel had beaten their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks (Isa. 2:4; Mic. 4:3). Once their allegorizing had taken root, there was no end to where their fantasies would lead.

Consequently, if the church was Israel, then the church would have to go through the tribulation just as the prophets said. If that was true then there could be no rapture beforehand. Of course, they only believed the prophets when it fit their scheme. If they really believed them, they would not have said that the church had become the new Israel in the first place.

Whenever a passage didn’t suit their program, it was said to be a parable, then they could and did invent whatever explanation they desired. It was a common practice of Philo, Clement of Alexandria, Origen and most all those early leaders to say the God actually falsified Scriptures to hide the truth from the simple minded layman. The belief that the Scriptures were to be taken literally was looked upon as being crass and carnal and beneath the Divine, and remained so until the Reformation and is still very much with us today.

Beginning in the third century and the union of church and state under Constantine, it was soon the teaching that the church was the kingdom of God established on earth; especially through the teaching of Augustine (AD 354-430). Yet as in most things there are some exceptions. Even before then there were some who began to re-examine and search the Scriptures independently; such as the Latin leader Tertullian, who pleaded for religious liberty. Chrysostom (345-407) was deposed and banished in AD 403 for his lack of conformity. For a time nonconformity was corrected by persuasion or punished by excommunication.

However, with their newfound power of the state at their disposal, it was only a matter of time until more drastic measures were instituted to contain those they considered to be heretics, and a threat to their counterfeit adulterated kingdom. At first it was confiscation of property, floggings, and then executions. It was dangerous to teach anything other than what the church sanctioned, and with the soul searching especially of the Reformation many martyrs paid with their lives in some of the most horrible torments imaginable, and that in the name of God.

Peter’s successors supposedly had the keys to the kingdom and power to shut out anyone from heaven and consign them to eternal hell fire if they disagreed with the church. With such claims it can hardly be expected that they would teach the rapture of the church. They were quite comfortable with their manmade kingdom with the worldly riches and power it afforded the elite.

As to no rapture teaching in the ancient church, the discovery of what is plainly a reference to the rapture. Grant Jeffrey of Grant Jeffrey Ministries discovered the teaching about the pretriblulation rapture. It was found in the writings of what is said to be written in 393 AD by a Syrian church leader named Ephraem in a document called “Sermon by Pseudo Ephraem,” entitled “On the last times, the Anti-Christ and the end of the World.”

The statement by Ephraem that Grant Jeffery in particular brings attention to is as follows.

For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.

Of course the Arapture and Post-Tribulation people immediately came up with all kinds of denials of how it was some writer other than Ephraem, or written long after his time. And that it was only the belief of one man rather than a church doctrine. But it is a fact that he was one of the more notable church leaders of his day, having written many books and articles on a variety of things. Even if it was not written by Ephraem, it is still a clear testimony of the belief in the biblical teaching of the rapture, and that, many centuries before the teaching of Darby in the 19th century.

Because of their method of teaching and power of the state to enforce their edicts, it all but shut out any teaching of the Scriptures as having a literal meaning, especially if it concerned prophecy and was contrary to their doctrines. And it remained so until the Reformation when the reformers began a return to reason and the belief that perhaps they should re-examine the Scriptures, and understand them more literally.

Even though Luther and other reformers restored salvation through faith alone, and clarified many other things, still, because of the wholesale perversion of Scriptural truth for centuries, with the persecutions and just trying to stay alive, it was just too much to restore all that was so corrupted. Consequently, after the persecutions, there was a settling down with what had been accomplished and other truths would wait for another reformation.

That reformation was the return to even more literal understanding of Scriptures and the return to a serious study of prophecy. Eschatology in particular began to be seriously studied in the eighteenth century and is still in a state of refinement for the better. In truth it might be said that a second reformation began with such as John Nelson Darby and Dispensationalism in general. It could also perhaps be said in spite of some serious mistakes that Mid-Acts Dispensationalism is the beginning of a third reformation. Of them it is reportedly said to presently include over 300 congregations in America. The conclusions in this post is with a few notable exceptions very similar.

They who deny the rapture complain that it comes from a literal interpretation of the Scriptures. In so stating, they have shown themselves incapable of debating the issue. If a statement using normal words is not accepted as meaning what the writer said, then the only thing left is the inventions of those who deny what God has said. They have cast aside the only standard by which all conclusions must be decided which is the Holy Scriptures. If they ever read it they would do well to remember Paul’s statement to the Corinthians about his teaching (2 Cor. 1:13).

"...our dealings with you, have been absolutely aboveboard and sincere before God. They have not been marked by any worldly wisdom, but by the grace of God. Our letters to you have no double meaning-they mean just what you understand them to mean when you read them (Phillips translation).

…we mean by our letters nothing else than what you read in them and understand us to mean (Knox translation).

You don’t have to read between the lines of my letters; you can understand them (Moffatt. Translation).

How much more simple things would be if they would just listen to Paul, who said:

…I do not want you to be ignorant brethren,…

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words (1 Thess. 4:13-18).

Dispensationalism and the rapture taught by John Nelson Darby has gained adherents ever since. All that was needed was someone to step out of the confines of church restrictions and search the Scriptures for themselves and follow their conscience and the teaching of the Holy Spirit. Institutional restrictions and the parabolical method of teaching was the primary problem with the church and is still the foremost impediment to the teaching of the rapture and sound biblical theology today.

In all the Scriptures that have any bearing on the end-time judgments, there is nothing that remotely suggests a judgment taking place in connection with the two passages in 1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15 before the church saints are taken to heaven. That is one of the reasons the rapture was a mystery and completely separate from the Judgments at the Second Advent.

Apart from Enoch and Elijah the church rapture is the only event ever mentioned where living people are changed and taken to heaven. There are different resurrections where the Lord’s own are taken, but nothing resembling the rapture event. It is conspicuous that Paul is the only apostle or writer who mentions the rapture. The reason is simple, just like his gospel, the rapture, and this whole dispensation of grace, Paul said they were mysteries until reveiled to and taught by him and he said the others knew nothing about his gospel until he was sent to Jerusalem and explained it to them (Gal. 2:2, 7-8).

In His grace

pilgrim49

All excellent points. There is another very large problem with post-trib doctrine that you will never hear it's adherents talk about. It's their reasoning as to why the church has to go through the Tribulation. It is not logical, nor is it doctrinally sound.

Not only is it not logical, nor doctrinally sound, but Scripturally impossible. I will be posting explanations later.

In His grace

pilgrim

Edited February 28, 2012 by pilgrim49