Suffering....What Is The Truth?

[OldShep]

Thank you Dennis for the welcome. Some people call me Renee. Others call me Danielle. A select few call me Dani.

Although perhaps I am rather young, I too have known various degrees of suffering. I have lost loved ones to cancer, suicide, as well as the negligent driving of others. I have had family addicted to drugs as well as alcohol. Others who have been the cause of or subject to physical violence. I....myself...have been prey to molestation as a child. There has been times in the past my heart was hardened against God because of such events. The first time I faced this question:

If God is such a loving God, why do so many bad things happen?

I was stumped. I had no answer. As a young college student fresh out of high school on fire for God, I discovered my fire quickly extinquished by doubt.

In time though....God led me to the book of Job and some of the answers to some of those questions I asked above have been found. Just do not understand where the idea of suffering in another's life means that there is sin that is unaddressed or God must be angry with them came from. How did this lie start? Has there been verses that have been used in your experience that have eased the hearts and minds of some who once felt that God resented them due to the struggles they experienced in their lives? How might I reach out to a soul, such as a dear friend who feels this way?

Hi Renee

I was once told that wisdom is not the property of just the old. My education of life and death started when I was about 2 and it continues even today. Much of what I have walked through sounds far too unreal to be truth, however one thing is, God Loves Me, and God Love You, and You the person that is reading this.

How did the lie start? Onelight may be on to something, I went to one church that was telling me that my troubles were a punishment for my sins, they wanted more money. Most of any extra cash when to the hospital for my first little Girl, who suffered a SID's attack in the hospital and died for about 8 minutes, causing her to be retarded. The pastor of that church was caught having sex with my wife...I stopped going there!!! It was not God's punishment on me that a pastor fell into the snare....People Choose.

I have come to understand that "God loves us so much that He gave His only Son for us," " US" includes my former wife, that pastor, and all the other people in the world that have done every evil thing that you can think of. Jesus, died for all of our sins, God is not, in Heaven causing us to have bad things happen to us. We bring that on ourselves or the evil within the heart of man does.

Joh_3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1Jn_4:11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. ( this is the part that most of we humans are having problems with, me included )

ICL~~~Dennis

[nChrist]

Hello OldShep,

Brother, I'm sorry to hear that you have gone through so much. You will be in my prayers. In comparison, my afflictions are minor.

[AnotherSinner]

Hi Renee

I was once told that wisdom is not the property of just the old. My education of life and death started when I was about 2 and it continues even today. Much of what I have walked through sounds far too unreal to be truth, however one thing is, God Loves Me, and God Love You, and You the person that is reading this.

How did the lie start? Onelight may be on to something, I went to one church that was telling me that my troubles were a punishment for my sins, they wanted more money. Most of any extra cash when to the hospital for my first little Girl, who suffered a SID's attack in the hospital and died for about 8 minutes, causing her to be retarded. The pastor of that church was caught having sex with my wife...I stopped going there!!! It was not God's punishment on me that a pastor fell into the snare....People Choose.

I have come to understand that "God loves us so much that He gave His only Son for us," " US" includes my former wife, that pastor, and all the other people in the world that have done every evil thing that you can think of. Jesus, died for all of our sins, God is not, in Heaven causing us to have bad things happen to us. We bring that on ourselves or the evil within the heart of man does.

Joh_3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1Jn_4:11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. ( this is the part that most of we humans are having problems with, me included )

ICL~~~Dennis

Dennis,

Thank you for sharing with me. Sorry too for all the hardships you have had to bear. Especially those that were inflicted by your church family. The house of God should be a place you are able to go to seek refuge, encouragement, as well as enlightment. Not to mention it should be a place you feel free to share the same things that you recieve. Suffering is something I have come to belief and feel that helps us to grow. Not just on an emotional level, but a spiritual one as well. For the one we should always turn to...no matter what the struggle should be our Creator. God will never let us down. Just have always stumbled when it comes to trusting in Him, especially when times get rough. Also when it comes to trying to explain suffering to others. It was a real downward turn for me in the past.

May God Bless You....

[gdemoss]

As I have read the scriptures I have found them to be full of suffering. Much of it infflicted by God himself. The first suffering ever inflicted upon man was a cursed earth for our own good. Yes, God brings much suffering upon us himself but always for the purpose of causing us to turn to him instead of away. It doesn't always work that way though. Some, like Cain, just think God is picking on them and learn nothing but to hate God.

God has laid claim to much pain and suffering inflicted upon his people. Because David knocked up Bathsheba and killed her husband to try to cover up his lie, God promised David that the child would die and that he would raise up David enemies within his own household. Absalom was the result.

In some instances God merely enforced the Words of his Prophets such as Noah who cursed Hams son Cainan. Much misery and suffering has come from that curse. In other portions of scripture we find that when people deal poorly with each other that God tends to exalt the one treated poorly and it becomes major suffering for the ones descending from the one who mistreated the other such as Sarah and Hagar. Ishmael turn out to cause much suffering of others. This is also Gods doing.

We need not try to reassign the 'blame' for human suffering but ultimately see what God means by both causing and allowing it at any given time. The purpose of human suffering in perfecting those who suffer. When God finished creating everything he looked at it and said it was very good. What he has been doing for the last few thousand years is perfecting those who will ultimately end up inhabiting the earth for eternity with him and his son Jesus.

Even Jesus, the very Son of God, learned obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect he is the captain of our salvation. Our suffering isn't necessarily directly tied to any sin that we may have done (although it can be) but it is tied to our being perfected in our faith as we learn obedience. Jesus suffered yet never sinned so no one can absolutely say that God is mad at you when you suffer, but we must be careful to note that the scripture also says that the wrath of God abides on the children of disobedience.

1 Corinthians 11 tells us that those who take the Lords supper in an unworthy way become sick and some die as a result. I'd say this is suffering caused by ones own sin.

1 Peter tells us that there are those who suffer for righteousness sake as well as those who suffer as evil doers.

Peter himself suffered immensely when he denied the Lord 3 times.

What Job taught me was that God is God and we the creature have no room to question him when he does something like let Satan take things from us or cause us to be ill. But in all of it God was sovereign over Jobs suffering and God is sovereign over all suffering. It is God who will not allow us to be tempted above that which we are able and I am most certain, looking at Job, that suffering is a temptation to curse God and die.

As all of the previous posters have mentioned, God loves each and every one of us. Everything that he is doing is working to bring as many as will unto him for eternity. Sometimes it doesn't make sense to us but we have to consider things like Joseph and his brothers. By doing what he did and allowing all the suffering he did God saved much people alive and caused 11 brothers to repent and turn back toward him.

Some of the most difficult things I have had to come to terms with are:

• sometimes letting a murder go free is the right thing to do
  
• sometimes killing women and children is the right thing to do.
  
• sometimes flooding the whole world and killing all but 8 is the right thing to do.
  
• sometimes sending fire from heaven to destroy a few cities full of people is the right thing to do.
  
• sometimes raising up enemies within a mans own home is the right thing to do.
  
• sometimes casting your people away into captivity is the right thing to do.
  
• sometimes crushing your own son for the benefit of others is the right thing to do.
  
• sometimes having a bear devour young boys who make fun of a bald guy is the right thing to do.
  
• sometimes letting Satan continue unbound is the right thing to do.
  
• sometimes sending people to an eternal place of torment who have rejected you is the right thing to do.
  
• sometimes forgiving murderers, liars, theives, molesters, rapists, liars and whores is the right thing to do.
  

God has said that our ways are not his ways but his ways are higher than ours. For me it truly is a matter of trust. I know what sin is and I know when I have sinned and if I happen to be in denial God seems to send me a Nathan to show me my error. I have known when God is bringing his hand down upon me for sin that I have committed. I know that I have suffered for the sake of being righteous. I don't always know exactly why I am suffering at any given moment but I know that I am being perfected to spend an eternity in a place without suffering.

A funny (to me at least) story about Gods chastening happened to me about a year ago. I raise chickens and was in the coupe feeding them one day while in a foul mood already. Chickens are terrible and have no manners when hungry. As I was putting the food into the tray one of them kept getting in my way and I gave it a boot. No sooner than I preformed the action I knew it was wrong and my heart sank within me. I quickly closed up the coupe and went over to check on some flowers I had. As I sat there taking in the beauty of them, a bee came from out of nowhere and buzzed by me causing me to jerk just right and smack myself in the face. I looked up and said thank you. Then asked him to forgive my outrage against the chicken. God knows how to deal with each one of us in a way that we understand what he is doing. I think twice before kicking a chicken nowadays. I deserved the fat lip that day, praise God.

This life is about having been alive but dead to God only to be reborn to be alive but dead to self. There is a lot of suffering involved.

May the Lord our God keep you through all that he allows you to suffer as he perfects you for eternity to be spent with him.

Gary

[OldShep]

As I have read the scriptures I have found them to be full of suffering. Much of it infflicted by God himself. The first suffering ever inflicted upon man was a cursed earth for our own good. Yes, God brings much suffering upon us himself but always for the purpose of causing us to turn to him instead of away. It doesn't always work that way though. Some, like Cain, just think God is picking on them and learn nothing but to hate God.

God has laid claim to much pain and suffering inflicted upon his people. Because David knocked up Bathsheba and killed her husband to try to cover up his lie, God promised David that the child would die and that he would raise up David enemies within his own household. Absalom was the result.

In some instances God merely enforced the Words of his Prophets such as Noah who cursed Hams son Cainan. Much misery and suffering has come from that curse. In other portions of scripture we find that when people deal poorly with each other that God tends to exalt the one treated poorly and it becomes major suffering for the ones descending from the one who mistreated the other such as Sarah and Hagar. Ishmael turn out to cause much suffering of others. This is also Gods doing.

We need not try to reassign the 'blame' for human suffering but ultimately see what God means by both causing and allowing it at any given time. The purpose of human suffering in perfecting those who suffer. When God finished creating everything he looked at it and said it was very good. What he has been doing for the last few thousand years is perfecting those who will ultimately end up inhabiting the earth for eternity with him and his son Jesus.

Even Jesus, the very Son of God, learned obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect he is the captain of our salvation. Our suffering isn't necessarily directly tied to any sin that we may have done (although it can be) but it is tied to our being perfected in our faith as we learn obedience. Jesus suffered yet never sinned so no one can absolutely say that God is mad at you when you suffer, but we must be careful to note that the scripture also says that the wrath of God abides on the children of disobedience.

1 Corinthians 11 tells us that those who take the Lords supper in an unworthy way become sick and some die as a result. I'd say this is suffering caused by ones own sin.

1 Peter tells us that there are those who suffer for righteousness sake as well as those who suffer as evil doers.

Peter himself suffered immensely when he denied the Lord 3 times.

What Job taught me was that God is God and we the creature have no room to question him when he does something like let Satan take things from us or cause us to be ill. But in all of it God was sovereign over Jobs suffering and God is sovereign over all suffering. It is God who will not allow us to be tempted above that which we are able and I am most certain, looking at Job, that suffering is a temptation to curse God and die.

As all of the previous posters have mentioned, God loves each and every one of us. Everything that he is doing is working to bring as many as will unto him for eternity. Sometimes it doesn't make sense to us but we have to consider things like Joseph and his brothers. By doing what he did and allowing all the suffering he did God saved much people alive and caused 11 brothers to repent and turn back toward him.

Some of the most difficult things I have had to come to terms with are:

• sometimes letting a murder go free is the right thing to do
• sometimes killing women and children is the right thing to do.
• sometimes flooding the whole world and killing all but 8 is the right thing to do.
• sometimes sending fire from heaven to destroy a few cities full of people is the right thing to do.
• sometimes raising up enemies within a mans own home is the right thing to do.
• sometimes casting your people away into captivity is the right thing to do.
• sometimes crushing your own son for the benefit of others is the right thing to do.
• sometimes having a bear devour young boys who make fun of a bald guy is the right thing to do.
• sometimes letting Satan continue unbound is the right thing to do.
• sometimes sending people to an eternal place of torment who have rejected you is the right thing to do.
• sometimes forgiving murderers, liars, theives, molesters, rapists, liars and whores is the right thing to do.

God has said that our ways are not his ways but his ways are higher than ours. For me it truly is a matter of trust. I know what sin is and I know when I have sinned and if I happen to be in denial God seems to send me a Nathan to show me my error. I have known when God is bringing his hand down upon me for sin that I have committed. I know that I have suffered for the sake of being righteous. I don't always know exactly why I am suffering at any given moment but I know that I am being perfected to spend an eternity in a place without suffering.

A funny (to me at least) story about Gods chastening happened to me about a year ago. I raise chickens and was in the coupe feeding them one day while in a foul mood already. Chickens are terrible and have no manners when hungry. As I was putting the food into the tray one of them kept getting in my way and I gave it a boot. No sooner than I preformed the action I knew it was wrong and my heart sank within me. I quickly closed up the coupe and went over to check on some flowers I had. As I sat there taking in the beauty of them, a bee came from out of nowhere and buzzed by me causing me to jerk just right and smack myself in the face. I looked up and said thank you. Then asked him to forgive my outrage against the chicken. God knows how to deal with each one of us in a way that we understand what he is doing. I think twice before kicking a chicken nowadays. I deserved the fat lip that day, praise God.

This life is about having been alive but dead to God only to be reborn to be alive but dead to self. There is a lot of suffering involved.

May the Lord our God keep you through all that he allows you to suffer as he perfects you for eternity to be spent with him.

Gary

Thanks for sharing Gary!

One of the things that I have had to come to terms with is; That sometimes man thinks he has become God and Falsely does what God has done, but in truth his actions are spurred on form the evil of his own soul.

I once handed a blanket to a little boy who was cold and wet. Men seen what I did, Men decided to punish that family by cutting the arms off the little boy and shoving a stake up through his private parts. Man also did the same to the boys little sister, and beheaded the mother sticking her head on a pole. This family as far as I know did not know the Lord, Jesus. Yet, in my heart I know that the word sometimes should never be used to justify the MURDER of children and unarmed mothers.

Sometimes the proof of a murder can not be found, without witnesses of the deed, without proof of the deed, is it not better to release a presumed guilty party then to put a possible innocent man to death.

I understand that at one point in time evil in the world grew to the point that God, flooded the earth, Never to be done again by God, where does one get the idea that the word "sometimes" should be used before this fact.

HUM, sometimes Forgiving...as a believer and a follower of Jesus, my heart is ready to forgive those who ask for it and in most cases have already forgiven even those who have not dared ask for it.

Sometimes, the word sometimes should not be used in a statement.

JMPO...ICL~~~ Dennis

[gdemoss]

As I have read the scriptures I have found them to be full of suffering. Much of it infflicted by God himself. The first suffering ever inflicted upon man was a cursed earth for our own good. Yes, God brings much suffering upon us himself but always for the purpose of causing us to turn to him instead of away. It doesn't always work that way though. Some, like Cain, just think God is picking on them and learn nothing but to hate God.

God has laid claim to much pain and suffering inflicted upon his people. Because David knocked up Bathsheba and killed her husband to try to cover up his lie, God promised David that the child would die and that he would raise up David enemies within his own household. Absalom was the result.

In some instances God merely enforced the Words of his Prophets such as Noah who cursed Hams son Cainan. Much misery and suffering has come from that curse. In other portions of scripture we find that when people deal poorly with each other that God tends to exalt the one treated poorly and it becomes major suffering for the ones descending from the one who mistreated the other such as Sarah and Hagar. Ishmael turn out to cause much suffering of others. This is also Gods doing.

We need not try to reassign the 'blame' for human suffering but ultimately see what God means by both causing and allowing it at any given time. The purpose of human suffering in perfecting those who suffer. When God finished creating everything he looked at it and said it was very good. What he has been doing for the last few thousand years is perfecting those who will ultimately end up inhabiting the earth for eternity with him and his son Jesus.

Even Jesus, the very Son of God, learned obedience by the things which he suffered and being made perfect he is the captain of our salvation. Our suffering isn't necessarily directly tied to any sin that we may have done (although it can be) but it is tied to our being perfected in our faith as we learn obedience. Jesus suffered yet never sinned so no one can absolutely say that God is mad at you when you suffer, but we must be careful to note that the scripture also says that the wrath of God abides on the children of disobedience.

1 Corinthians 11 tells us that those who take the Lords supper in an unworthy way become sick and some die as a result. I'd say this is suffering caused by ones own sin.

1 Peter tells us that there are those who suffer for righteousness sake as well as those who suffer as evil doers.

Peter himself suffered immensely when he denied the Lord 3 times.

What Job taught me was that God is God and we the creature have no room to question him when he does something like let Satan take things from us or cause us to be ill. But in all of it God was sovereign over Jobs suffering and God is sovereign over all suffering. It is God who will not allow us to be tempted above that which we are able and I am most certain, looking at Job, that suffering is a temptation to curse God and die.

As all of the previous posters have mentioned, God loves each and every one of us. Everything that he is doing is working to bring as many as will unto him for eternity. Sometimes it doesn't make sense to us but we have to consider things like Joseph and his brothers. By doing what he did and allowing all the suffering he did God saved much people alive and caused 11 brothers to repent and turn back toward him.

Some of the most difficult things I have had to come to terms with are:

• sometimes letting a murder go free is the right thing to do
• sometimes killing women and children is the right thing to do.
• sometimes flooding the whole world and killing all but 8 is the right thing to do.
• sometimes sending fire from heaven to destroy a few cities full of people is the right thing to do.
• sometimes raising up enemies within a mans own home is the right thing to do.
• sometimes casting your people away into captivity is the right thing to do.
• sometimes crushing your own son for the benefit of others is the right thing to do.
• sometimes having a bear devour young boys who make fun of a bald guy is the right thing to do.
• sometimes letting Satan continue unbound is the right thing to do.
• sometimes sending people to an eternal place of torment who have rejected you is the right thing to do.
• sometimes forgiving murderers, liars, theives, molesters, rapists, liars and whores is the right thing to do.

God has said that our ways are not his ways but his ways are higher than ours. For me it truly is a matter of trust. I know what sin is and I know when I have sinned and if I happen to be in denial God seems to send me a Nathan to show me my error. I have known when God is bringing his hand down upon me for sin that I have committed. I know that I have suffered for the sake of being righteous. I don't always know exactly why I am suffering at any given moment but I know that I am being perfected to spend an eternity in a place without suffering.

A funny (to me at least) story about Gods chastening happened to me about a year ago. I raise chickens and was in the coupe feeding them one day while in a foul mood already. Chickens are terrible and have no manners when hungry. As I was putting the food into the tray one of them kept getting in my way and I gave it a boot. No sooner than I preformed the action I knew it was wrong and my heart sank within me. I quickly closed up the coupe and went over to check on some flowers I had. As I sat there taking in the beauty of them, a bee came from out of nowhere and buzzed by me causing me to jerk just right and smack myself in the face. I looked up and said thank you. Then asked him to forgive my outrage against the chicken. God knows how to deal with each one of us in a way that we understand what he is doing. I think twice before kicking a chicken nowadays. I deserved the fat lip that day, praise God.

This life is about having been alive but dead to God only to be reborn to be alive but dead to self. There is a lot of suffering involved.

May the Lord our God keep you through all that he allows you to suffer as he perfects you for eternity to be spent with him.

Gary

Thanks for sharing Gary!

One of the things that I have had to come to terms with is; That sometimes man thinks he has become God and Falsely does what God has done, but in truth his actions are spurred on form the evil of his own soul.

I once handed a blanket to a little boy who was cold and wet. Men seen what I did, Men decided to punish that family by cutting the arms off the little boy and shoving a stake up through his private parts. Man also did the same to the boys little sister, and beheaded the mother sticking her head on a pole. This family as far as I know did not know the Lord, Jesus. Yet, in my heart I know that the word sometimes should never be used to justify the MURDER of children and unarmed mothers.

Sometimes the proof of a murder can not be found, without witnesses of the deed, without proof of the deed, is it not better to release a presumed guilty party then to put a possible innocent man to death.

I understand that at one point in time evil in the world grew to the point that God, flooded the earth, Never to be done again by God, where does one get the idea that the word "sometimes" should be used before this fact.

HUM, sometimes Forgiving...as a believer and a follower of Jesus, my heart is ready to forgive those who ask for it and in most cases have already forgiven even those who have not dared ask for it.

Sometimes, the word sometimes should not be used in a statement.

JMPO...ICL~~~ Dennis

I understand your point and agree with you Dennis. My position better explained is 'sometimes' it is right 'for God' to do these things or call for them to be done because he is the righteous judge. Jesus has called me to grace, mercy and peace. And to leave judgment for the day he returns to judge the world in righteousness. I also consider the upcoming tribulation that will be every bit as devastating as the flood but worse because it continues on for a longer period and some will live longer than others as they witness the judgment.

My point was simple but must not have been very well put. God has done these things or called for them to be done and I have had to come to terms with the fact that he is righteous and just in doing so. For me that wasn't easy.

My apologies for not being clear.

In Christ,

Gary

[OldShep]

My apologies for not being clear.

apology accepted

Sometimes things fly right over my head, I'm from the old school of KISS, when things are not kept simple they skip right over this bald head of mine.

I was taught about the two bears when I was a child, scared the Hell out of Me, which wasn't such a bad thing, my nick name at the time was Dennis the menace.....

2Ki 2:23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!"

2Ki 2:24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

ICL~~~Dennis

[gdemoss]

My apologies for not being clear.

apology accepted

Sometimes things fly right over my head, I'm from the old school of KISS, when things are not kept simple they skip right over this bald head of mine.

I was taught about the two bears when I was a child, scared the Hell out of Me, which wasn't such a bad thing, my nick name at the time was Dennis the menace.....

2Ki 2:23 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!"

2Ki 2:24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

ICL~~~Dennis

Absolutely no way I would make fun of that...bears frighten me.

[coheir]

I am just a babe in my faith. There is much still I do not know. Just cannot help but wonder how if this doctrine is false....it is so widely believed and where it originated. How can scripture be used to support the truth that argues against so many negative beliefs? Is there a way that this deception can be countered with truth?

1st Peter 5

8 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

1st John 1

5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Heb 10

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Edited April 13, 2012 by coheir

[AnotherSinner]

The first time I faced this question:

If God is such a loving God, why do so many bad things happen?

I was stumped. I had no answer. As a young college student fresh out of high school on fire for God, I discovered my fire quickly extinquished by doubt.

In time though....God led me to the book of Job and some of the answers to some of those questions I asked above have been found. Just do not understand where the idea of suffering in another's life means that there is sin that is unaddressed or God must be angry with them came from. How did this lie start? Has there been verses that have been used in your experience that have eased the hearts and minds of some who once felt that God resented them due to the struggles they experienced in their lives? How might I reach out to a soul, such as a dear friend who feels this way?

What I know is that no one suffered as much as Jesus, and no one was more righteous than he.

That answers it all for me.

Beautifully spoken Eleanor.