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carlos123

Did Jesus pay for ALL sin (past, present, and future sin)?

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Grace to you,

This is a topic that gets debated a lot as does eternal security.

Here is where we want to focus for a moment. Jesus died once for all. the sins of the world were laid upon Him. faith in Him and confession is how we are saved.

Now if we look at the book of James for a moment we will learn it is possible for a christian to have sins and indeed that God's mercy would forgive those sins.

Look at James 5:14 and 15 and let's use the amplified bible so we get the full understanding of the scripture.

James 5:14-16

Amplified Bible (AMP)

14 Is anyone among you sick? He should call in the church elders (the spiritual guides). And they should pray over him, anointing him with oil in the Lord’s name.

15 And the prayer [that is] of faith will save him who is sick, and the Lord will restore him; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

16 Confess to one another therefore your faults (your slips, your false steps, your offenses, your sins) and pray [also] for one another, that you may be healed and restored [to a spiritual tone of mind and heart].

Ok so this is pretty clear confession is not suggested it is commanded. let's get a solid foundation though. let's go over to 1 john

1 John 1:9-11

Amplified Bible (AMP)

9 If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action].

10 If we say (claim) we have not sinned, we contradict His Word and make Him out to be false and a liar, and His Word is not in us [the divine message of the Gospel is not in our hearts]..

Ok now we are starting to get a good foundation but let's continue on because this is an important topic important enough to cause me to join this forum. Let's go then into the life of King David a man anointed of God and indeed God spoke of him being after His own heart.David was confronted by nathan the prophet. David committed the lust of the eyes the lust of the flesh and he committed murder and adultery For the sake of space I won't post all of 2 sam 12 but it is a good read instead I will focus on this part of it 2 sam 12:13

13 And David said to Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said to David, The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die.David being confronted with his secret sin immediately replied I have sinned against the Lord. What is interesting is first David confessed the sin and then He was forgiven the sin which ties 1 john 1:9 into the fact God never changes.

But let's really get an understanding here. there is a great number in the body of Christ that are bound in pornography. What shall we say then, Jesus paid for it so you are not accountable? Certainly not brethren not one of you can say sin is accepted in God's sight. unconfessed sin is a doorway to the enemy. which is why we are told to give no place to the devil let's look at eph 4:26 and 27

26 When angry, do not sin; do not ever let your wrath (your exasperation, your fury or indignation) last until the sun goes down.

27 Leave no [such] room or foothold for the devil [give no opportunity to him].So even in having reactions to things can be sin righteous anger or zeal is not sin fleshly anger cursing and swearing etc this is sin. is swearing a sin? certainly and we are commanded against it.

let's look at james chapter 3:10-12

James 3:10-12

Amplified Bible (AMP)

10 Out of the same mouth come forth blessing and cursing. These things, my brethren, ought not to be so.

11 Does a fountain send forth [simultaneously] from the same opening fresh water and bitter?

12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine figs? Neither can a salt spring furnish fresh water.

You see a great many people believe because Jesus paid for the sin of all the world there is no need to think we would have sin held against us. this is simply untrue. God would not be just if he turned a blind eye and we who are dead to sin shall not continue any longer in it. if you have the spirit of God within you you are dead to the world and alive to God. but sin in all it's form separates us from God so if we say we are not accountable we make the work of Christ of no effect. the scripture declares there is now therefore no condemnation to those who are IN Christ Jesus and walk according to the spirit and not the flesh.

Romans 8:1-5

Amplified Bible (AMP)

8 Therefore, [there is] now no condemnation (no adjudging guilty of wrong) for those who are in Christ Jesus, who live [and] walk not after the dictates of the flesh, but after the dictates of the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.

3 For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [[a]the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. Sending His own Son in the guise of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [God] condemned sin in the flesh [[b]subdued, overcame, [c]deprived it of its power over all who accept that sacrifice],

4 So that the righteous and just requirement of the Law might be fully met in us who live and move not in the ways of the flesh but in the ways of the Spirit [our lives governed not by the standards and according to the dictates of the flesh, but controlled by the Holy Spirit].

5 For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and [d]pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and [e]seek those things which gratify the [Holy] Spirit.

see there is a distinct line there. who walk according to the spirit. now let's take that one step further. as many as are led by the spirit of God they are the sons of God. rom 8:14. so what do we say then brethren if we are told sin is what separated us from God and that we are to walk according to the spirit and not the flesh for in the flesh dwells no good thing. what do we say then it is ok to sin? not so. sin is sin and must be confessed and turned away from. for how can God and satan be friends? repentance means to turn away from to change your mind and heart. now this is not to say we will not sin it is to say we must be quick to repent and quick to submit to God there is a process for overcoming the process is laid out clearly here

James 4:7

Amplified Bible (AMP)

7 So be subject to God. Resist the devil [stand firm against him], and he will flee from you.

Please understand Jesus did pay for every sin which is why we will stand before Him and give an account. make no mistake God is not mocked that which a man sows shall he also reap.

I will close with this. Jesus is our judge

2 Corinthians 5:6-10

Amplified Bible (AMP)

6 So then, we are always full of good and hopeful and confident courage; we know that while we are at home in the body, we are abroad from the home with the Lord [that is promised us].

7 For we walk by faith [we [a]regulate our lives and conduct ourselves by our conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, with trust and holy fervor; thus we walk] not by sight or appearance.

8 [Yes] we have confident and hopeful courage and are pleased rather to be away from home out of the body and be at home with the Lord.

9 Therefore, whether we are at home [on earth away from Him] or away from home [and with Him], we are constantly ambitious and strive earnestly to be pleasing to Him.

10 For we must all appear and be revealed as we are before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive [his pay] according to what he has done in the body, whether good or evil [considering [b]what his purpose and motive have been, and what he has [c]achieved, been busy with, and given himself and his attention to accomplishing].

Also

Acts 10:42

Amplified Bible (AMP)

42 And He charged us to preach to the people and to bear solemn testimony that He is the God-appointed and God-ordained Judge of the living and the dead.

Jesus did pay for every sin this is why we will stand before Him and give an account. be not deceived brethren we are not licensed to carry on in sin matt 12:34-36 sums it up

36 But I tell you, on the day of judgment men will have to give account for every [d]idle (inoperative, nonworking) word they speak.

37 For by your words you will be justified and acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned and sentenced.

-William

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I was talking to a friend this morning who is not certain that Jesus paid the penalty for ALL sin and thought this might make a good topic to discuss here.

Thus...this post.

However if I might venture to set some parameters for this thread (I mean I can't stop anyone from doing otherwise but hopefully those who post will have some measure of godly self-control in sticking to the thread topic)...this thread is about the topic of whether Jesus paid the penalty for ALL sin.

It is NOT about once saved always saved or related issues (i.e. Amernian vs Calvinism of which there is already a very good thread about that here) though I grant you that one's stand on the question I raise does tie into the once saved always saved / one can lose their salvation controversy. But it is not directly about that. So PLEASE...stick to the topic at hand.

Once again the topic is did Jesus pay the penalty for ALL sin, once for all time (for ALL of our past, present, and future sin all rolled into the one sacrifice on the cross).

What does the Bible say about that? And is it definitively clear or not on this issue?

I personally believe the Bible is clear in saying that His death was for ALL sin once for ALL time. When I say ALL I mean exactly that. ALL. As in past, present, and future. ALL.

What say ye?

Carlos

The Holy Bible says that Jesus' death was for past sins. In order for your future sins to be forgiven, you have to commit the sin first and then ask forgiveness for it after you are repentant.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Thank you Selene... I read this long exhaustive thread and I agree with Gary, yourself, as well as a few others concerning forgiveness of sin past, present and future but I do not agree with Carlos' theology on it. I must come to the conclusion, Carlos, that your conviction is based on having and already preconceived goal in mind. It's almost as though you've made up your mind from reading a few verses and then forming all others to fit it. In Roman's 7, Paul for the most part is speaking from an illustrative point of view, from the perspective of the man under the law. He is speaking in the first person but only as an illustration... he wasn't saying that in the now, or of the new covenant man. He clearly defines in chapter 8 what is true about the new man under the new covenant. As Selene has pointed out in Romans 3:25, the blood is specifically for the past sins. Any sin committed post having come to the Knowledge of His Truth, has to be confessed and repented of, and we have an advocate in Christ for these sins but the forgiveness is not automatic. SO, it is scripturally sound to say that a true Christian's past sin, when coming to the Knowledge of Truth, is forgiven ...and that if he remains in the Knowledge of Truth and sins, confesses, repents, then his present sin can be forgiven as well. Likewise, if he sins in the future, confesses, repents then his future sins can be forgiven as well. To say that all unrepentant sin is forgiven is a VERY dangerous lie... unrepentant sin can and will choke out the Holy Spirit within us and mock grace. We rely on the Holy Spirit for our relationship with God... for understanding, for conviction, to bring us in prayer before the thrown, and for God's power in our life. So just as I explain to people that the "Once saved, Always saved" theology is poorly worded and in and of itself false, likewise, the saying that the "Blood forgives us for past, present, and future sins", is also poorly worded and false without elaboration. The only way the once saved, always saved will work is if we elaborate a bit more... "once saved, always saved for those who remain in Christ."... again, the same goes for the "Blood at the cross forgives for past, present and future sins for those who remain in Christ by obeying His commandments, and endures until the end."... If you are saying that it's not possible to lose your salvation then you are completely ignoring Hebrews 6.. "

Heb 6:4-6 NASB

(4) For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

(5) and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

(6) and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

This verse proves that it is certainly possible that, after have come to the Knowledge of Truth, partake in being sealed with the Holy Spirit, one can still have their name blotted out of the Lambs book of life. And if you say, well it doesn't say that they lose their salvation, I would suggest reading the next verses where it talks about being condemned of "being worthless and burned". At the end of the day, that will be between that fallen Christian and God but this verse clearly suggests the possibility. And this topic on once saved, always saved is very relevant to the current topic because they play hand-in-hand because to say Jesus paid for all sin, past, present, and future IS TO SAY once saved, always saved. Both are poorly worded and false without encompassing the whole Truth.

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Eternal security, OSAS, both have differing doctrines but both end with the same destination.

Jesus died for our sins. Past, present and future.

Simply asked like this...

I was not living when Jesus died for me, I was not born. What past sins had I committed? (unless you mean original sin, and that is a whole new ballgame). God knew the ones yet to come out of me, and had already forgiven me for them through the blood. The moment the "first revelation" (from the Latin velum - veil, or parchment, hence lifting or tearing of the veil) occurred at the time of the death of Jesus, we live under an open heaven, and God has told us that none will snatch us from His hand. None.

So I stand under an open heaven, in His light. I am saved, sanctified, redeemed, and have no need to fear that every transgression of Law (and we all make them, it is impossible not to), will send me into darkness. The veil of darkness, and the parchment of law is torn, I stand in light.

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.... I read this long exhaustive thread and I agree with.... as well as a few others concerning forgiveness of sin past, present and future but I do not agree with.... theology on it.

I must come to the conclusion, ...., that your conviction is based on having and already preconceived goal in mind. It's almost as though you've made up your mind from reading a few verses and then forming all others to fit it.

Taste

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

And Spit

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

Or Taste

O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. Psalms 34:8

And Swallow

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts. Jeremiah 15:16

For In My Book Jesus Saves

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

And Men Don't

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

See?

I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.Isaiah 42:8

~

Be Blessed Beloved Of The King

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

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Eternal security, OSAS, both have differing doctrines but both end with the same destination.

Jesus died for our sins. Past, present and future.

Simply asked like this...

I was not living when Jesus died for me, I was not born. What past sins had I committed? (unless you mean original sin, and that is a whole new ballgame). God knew the ones yet to come out of me, and had already forgiven me for them through the blood. The moment the "first revelation" (from the Latin velum - veil, or parchment, hence lifting or tearing of the veil) occurred at the time of the death of Jesus, we live under an open heaven, and God has told us that none will snatch us from His hand. None.

So I stand under an open heaven, in His light. I am saved, sanctified, redeemed, and have no need to fear that every transgression of Law (and we all make them, it is impossible not to), will send me into darkness. The veil of darkness, and the parchment of law is torn, I stand in light.

The only hole in this thinking is that from where God sits, time is not a restriction... Forgiveness happens in His dimension, where in time that blood was/is shed is irrelevant. From where God is, it all happens on one continuum... past, present and future are all but one to Him. Believing in Jesus, being baptized, and having faith in Him is not a one time affirmation... it is an ongoing affirmation that you profess daily from the time that you believed on... Now I am not saying that if one becomes weak, backslides, and doesn't die to self everyday that they will lose the promise... but what I am saying is that in time, with enough unrepentant rebellion and backsliding, one can fall out of the promise. That's what Hebrews is saying. So this is a very basic fundamental doctrine that cannot be denied. To deny it is to deny scripture and the Truth... to deny this is to set no boundaries for the manifestation of faith and belief... and the road is narrow and has boundaries. Jesus clearly explains this as the Lamb as well as later in scripture as the Lion... Again, I am not one who supports that one can never really be sure of their salvation because I believe those that are in Him and He in them, have eternal life and have that blessed assurance. I do support that one's faith and belief must be manifested in their walk for life. Obedience is a manifestation of faith... to love Yeshua is to obey Him. You can fall, stumble, and backslide temporarily and He will gladly accept us back when we repent of our lusts/sin and seek Him... but if you abuse the grace then you might be crossing the Galatians 6 boundary...

Gal 6:7-8 The Scriptures 1998+

(7) Do not be led astray: Elohim is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he shall also reap.

(8) Because he who sows to his own flesh shall reap corruption from the flesh, but he who sows to the Spirit shall reap everlasting life from the Spirit.

Edited by Spirit_Tracker
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And I might also add, that I don't feel that this thread has been in vain because you guys hammered out a lot of genuine scriptural Truth and hopefully anyone like myself who stumbles across it will be able to discern what is Truth and what is not.

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Eternal security, OSAS, both have differing doctrines but both end with the same destination.

Jesus died for our sins. Past, present and future.

Simply asked like this...

I was not living when Jesus died for me, I was not born. What past sins had I committed? (unless you mean original sin, and that is a whole new ballgame). God knew the ones yet to come out of me, and had already forgiven me for them through the blood. The moment the "first revelation" (from the Latin velum - veil, or parchment, hence lifting or tearing of the veil) occurred at the time of the death of Jesus, we live under an open heaven, and God has told us that none will snatch us from His hand. None.

So I stand under an open heaven, in His light. I am saved, sanctified, redeemed, and have no need to fear that every transgression of Law (and we all make them, it is impossible not to), will send me into darkness. The veil of darkness, and the parchment of law is torn, I stand in light.

The only hole in this thinking is that from where God sits, time is not a restriction... Forgiveness happens in His dimension, where in time that blood was/is shed is irrelevant. From where God is, it all happens on one continuum... past, present and future are all but one to Him. Believing in Jesus, being baptized, and having faith in Him is not a one time affirmation... it is an ongoing affirmation that you profess daily from the time that you believed on... Now I am not saying that if one becomes weak, backslides, and doesn't die to self everyday that they will lose the promise... but what I am saying is that in time, with enough unrepentant rebellion and backsliding, one can fall out of the promise. That's what Hebrews is saying. So this is a very basic fundamental doctrine that cannot be denied. To deny it is to deny scripture and the Truth... to deny this is to set no boundaries for the manifestation of faith and belief... and the road is narrow and has boundaries. Jesus clearly explains this as the Lamb as well as later in scripture as the Lion... Again, I am not one who supports that one can never really be sure of their salvation because I believe those that are in Him and He in them, have eternal life and have that blessed assurance. I do support that one's faith and belief must be manifested in their walk for life. Obedience is a manifestation of faith... to love Yeshua is to obey Him. You can fall, stumble, and backslide temporarily and He will gladly accept us back when we repent of our lusts/sin and seek Him... but if you abuse the grace then you might be crossing the Galatians 6 boundary...

Gal 6:7-8 The Scriptures 1998+

(7) Do not be led astray: Elohim is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he shall also reap.

(8) Because he who sows to his own flesh shall reap corruption from the flesh, but he who sows to the Spirit shall reap everlasting life from the Spirit.

Whose righteousness gets the saints to heaven, their own or the righteousness of Christ imputed to them?

Edited by allofgrace
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Eternal security, OSAS, both have differing doctrines but both end with the same destination.

Jesus died for our sins. Past, present and future.

Simply asked like this...

I was not living when Jesus died for me, I was not born. What past sins had I committed? (unless you mean original sin, and that is a whole new ballgame). God knew the ones yet to come out of me, and had already forgiven me for them through the blood. The moment the "first revelation" (from the Latin velum - veil, or parchment, hence lifting or tearing of the veil) occurred at the time of the death of Jesus, we live under an open heaven, and God has told us that none will snatch us from His hand. None.

So I stand under an open heaven, in His light. I am saved, sanctified, redeemed, and have no need to fear that every transgression of Law (and we all make them, it is impossible not to), will send me into darkness. The veil of darkness, and the parchment of law is torn, I stand in light.

The only hole in this thinking is that from where God sits, time is not a restriction... Forgiveness happens in His dimension, where in time that blood was/is shed is irrelevant. From where God is, it all happens on one continuum... past, present and future are all but one to Him. Believing in Jesus, being baptized, and having faith in Him is not a one time affirmation... it is an ongoing affirmation that you profess daily from the time that you believed on... Now I am not saying that if one becomes weak, backslides, and doesn't die to self everyday that they will lose the promise... but what I am saying is that in time, with enough unrepentant rebellion and backsliding, one can fall out of the promise. That's what Hebrews is saying. So this is a very basic fundamental doctrine that cannot be denied. To deny it is to deny scripture and the Truth... to deny this is to set no boundaries for the manifestation of faith and belief... and the road is narrow and has boundaries. Jesus clearly explains this as the Lamb as well as later in scripture as the Lion... Again, I am not one who supports that one can never really be sure of their salvation because I believe those that are in Him and He in them, have eternal life and have that blessed assurance. I do support that one's faith and belief must be manifested in their walk for life. Obedience is a manifestation of faith... to love Yeshua is to obey Him. You can fall, stumble, and backslide temporarily and He will gladly accept us back when we repent of our lusts/sin and seek Him... but if you abuse the grace then you might be crossing the Galatians 6 boundary...

Gal 6:7-8 The Scriptures 1998+

(7) Do not be led astray: Elohim is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he shall also reap.

(8) Because he who sows to his own flesh shall reap corruption from the flesh, but he who sows to the Spirit shall reap everlasting life from the Spirit.

Whose righteousness gets the saints to heaven, their own or the righteousness of Christ imputed to them?

Will your car run on gasoline if there is no engine?

Is it possible to claim to have Christ's righteousness and be a liar?

How is His righteousness manifested?

Are there conditions to get into heaven? Even after conversion?

What does Rev 22:11-14 mean?

ISR 1998

(11) “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart.

(12) “And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work.1

(13) “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.

(14) “Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city.

So to answer your question, His Righteousness is manifested in our believing. Our believing is manifested by our faith. Our faith is manifested in our love for Christ. Our love for Christ is manifested in our obedience in His commandments. His righteousness affords us the ability to either reject or accept His Truth.

http://hissheep.org/messages/were_all_sins_paid_for_at_calvary.html

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Eternal security, OSAS, both have differing doctrines but both end with the same destination.

Jesus died for our sins. Past, present and future.

Simply asked like this...

I was not living when Jesus died for me, I was not born. What past sins had I committed? (unless you mean original sin, and that is a whole new ballgame). God knew the ones yet to come out of me, and had already forgiven me for them through the blood. The moment the "first revelation" (from the Latin velum - veil, or parchment, hence lifting or tearing of the veil) occurred at the time of the death of Jesus, we live under an open heaven, and God has told us that none will snatch us from His hand. None.

So I stand under an open heaven, in His light. I am saved, sanctified, redeemed, and have no need to fear that every transgression of Law (and we all make them, it is impossible not to), will send me into darkness. The veil of darkness, and the parchment of law is torn, I stand in light.

The only hole in this thinking is that from where God sits, time is not a restriction... Forgiveness happens in His dimension, where in time that blood was/is shed is irrelevant. From where God is, it all happens on one continuum... past, present and future are all but one to Him. Believing in Jesus, being baptized, and having faith in Him is not a one time affirmation... it is an ongoing affirmation that you profess daily from the time that you believed on... Now I am not saying that if one becomes weak, backslides, and doesn't die to self everyday that they will lose the promise... but what I am saying is that in time, with enough unrepentant rebellion and backsliding, one can fall out of the promise. That's what Hebrews is saying. So this is a very basic fundamental doctrine that cannot be denied. To deny it is to deny scripture and the Truth... to deny this is to set no boundaries for the manifestation of faith and belief... and the road is narrow and has boundaries. Jesus clearly explains this as the Lamb as well as later in scripture as the Lion... Again, I am not one who supports that one can never really be sure of their salvation because I believe those that are in Him and He in them, have eternal life and have that blessed assurance. I do support that one's faith and belief must be manifested in their walk for life. Obedience is a manifestation of faith... to love Yeshua is to obey Him. You can fall, stumble, and backslide temporarily and He will gladly accept us back when we repent of our lusts/sin and seek Him... but if you abuse the grace then you might be crossing the Galatians 6 boundary...

Gal 6:7-8 The Scriptures 1998+

(7) Do not be led astray: Elohim is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he shall also reap.

(8) Because he who sows to his own flesh shall reap corruption from the flesh, but he who sows to the Spirit shall reap everlasting life from the Spirit.

Whose righteousness gets the saints to heaven, their own or the righteousness of Christ imputed to them?

Will your car run on gasoline if there is no engine?

Is it possible to claim to have Christ's righteousness and be a liar?

How is His righteousness manifested?

Are there conditions to get into heaven? Even after conversion?

What does Rev 22:11-14 mean?

ISR 1998

(11) “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart.

(12) “And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work.1

(13) “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.

(14) “Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city.

So to answer your question, His Righteousness is manifested in our believing. Our believing is manifested by our faith. Our faith is manifested in our love for Christ. Our love for Christ is manifested in our obedience in His commandments. His righteousness affords us the ability to either reject or accept His Truth.

http://hissheep.org/...at_calvary.html

So to question your answer, does the believer who does not walk in perfect obedience go to heaven on their righteousness or the righteousness of Christ? Or do they go to heaven?

Edited by allofgrace
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Eternal security, OSAS, both have differing doctrines but both end with the same destination.

Jesus died for our sins. Past, present and future.

Simply asked like this...

I was not living when Jesus died for me, I was not born. What past sins had I committed? (unless you mean original sin, and that is a whole new ballgame). God knew the ones yet to come out of me, and had already forgiven me for them through the blood. The moment the "first revelation" (from the Latin velum - veil, or parchment, hence lifting or tearing of the veil) occurred at the time of the death of Jesus, we live under an open heaven, and God has told us that none will snatch us from His hand. None.

So I stand under an open heaven, in His light. I am saved, sanctified, redeemed, and have no need to fear that every transgression of Law (and we all make them, it is impossible not to), will send me into darkness. The veil of darkness, and the parchment of law is torn, I stand in light.

The only hole in this thinking is that from where God sits, time is not a restriction... Forgiveness happens in His dimension, where in time that blood was/is shed is irrelevant. From where God is, it all happens on one continuum... past, present and future are all but one to Him. Believing in Jesus, being baptized, and having faith in Him is not a one time affirmation... it is an ongoing affirmation that you profess daily from the time that you believed on... Now I am not saying that if one becomes weak, backslides, and doesn't die to self everyday that they will lose the promise... but what I am saying is that in time, with enough unrepentant rebellion and backsliding, one can fall out of the promise. That's what Hebrews is saying. So this is a very basic fundamental doctrine that cannot be denied. To deny it is to deny scripture and the Truth... to deny this is to set no boundaries for the manifestation of faith and belief... and the road is narrow and has boundaries. Jesus clearly explains this as the Lamb as well as later in scripture as the Lion... Again, I am not one who supports that one can never really be sure of their salvation because I believe those that are in Him and He in them, have eternal life and have that blessed assurance. I do support that one's faith and belief must be manifested in their walk for life. Obedience is a manifestation of faith... to love Yeshua is to obey Him. You can fall, stumble, and backslide temporarily and He will gladly accept us back when we repent of our lusts/sin and seek Him... but if you abuse the grace then you might be crossing the Galatians 6 boundary...

Gal 6:7-8 The Scriptures 1998+

(7) Do not be led astray: Elohim is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he shall also reap.

(8) Because he who sows to his own flesh shall reap corruption from the flesh, but he who sows to the Spirit shall reap everlasting life from the Spirit.

Whose righteousness gets the saints to heaven, their own or the righteousness of Christ imputed to them?

Will your car run on gasoline if there is no engine?

Is it possible to claim to have Christ's righteousness and be a liar?

How is His righteousness manifested?

Are there conditions to get into heaven? Even after conversion?

What does Rev 22:11-14 mean?

ISR 1998

(11) “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart.

(12) “And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work.1

(13) “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.

(14) “Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city.

So to answer your question, His Righteousness is manifested in our believing. Our believing is manifested by our faith. Our faith is manifested in our love for Christ. Our love for Christ is manifested in our obedience in His commandments. His righteousness affords us the ability to either reject or accept His Truth.

http://hissheep.org/...at_calvary.html

So to question your answer, does the believer who does not walk in perfect obedience go to heaven on their righteousness or the righteousness of Christ? Or do they go to heaven?

Okay, I'll try this again. By saying "believer", I will assume you mean a person who meets the prerequisites to be called a "believer"... the prerequisites being such things as being born again, walking the victory of the spirit, obeying His commandments, giving spirit, loving Christ, loving His church, and working out their salvation in faith. All these are manifestations of the faith of the believer. The fruits are evident. As far as walking in perfect obedience, I don't know exactly what you mean by that... You're either walking in obedience or you're not... if we stumble and sin while walking in obedience, then we have to confess it, repent of it and will remain in obedience. If you stumble and sin, don't confess it, and don't repent of it, then you aren't walking in obedience. If we're walking in disobedience, after coming to the knowledge of truth, that doesn't mean we automatically fall from grace but it does mean that we've started down that road to breaking the covenant. Sin can lead to more sin, which leads to other sin, and before you know it, you're outside of God's Will. From Experience, I know God will take us back once we repent in humility and cry out for His grace though. We need to have reverence for God that we don't die in disobedience...nothing is guaranteed at that point. It is the obedient that can claim God's righteousness through Christ. Because the lukewarm believer, walking in disobedience, will be spit out.

And you've also made an assumption that we agree on what "imputed righteousness of Christ" is. You probably have this huge theology understanding of it, but my understanding of the righteousness, sanctification and redemption of Christ is what gives us the ability to have our previous sins forgiven... His Righteousness is from Him having no sin, and from dying, becoming the curse for man, and being resurrected .. and thus empowering us to walk in His Righteousness, having victory over sin. If we do sin after coming to the Knowledge, confess it, repent of it, then we are cleansed from that sin. It's not a free go to heaven ticket for anyone claiming to be a believer. If that was the case then Christ wouldn't have said "get away from me, I never knew you"... because those whom He rejects have and will have failed at meeting the basic prerequisites of a believer. There are many who call themselves a "believer" who aren't. So when a true believer goes to heaven, it will have been because of Christs wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption from God that it made it possible to believe, repent, and walk in the spirit. So it will always fall back to what He done on the cross, in that it was God's New Covenant established unto to man, to forgive man for his previously committed sins. Once you're under the new covenant, there is no excuse to walk in the flesh and sin but rather we are empowered to walk in the spirit without sin. That doesn't mean we don't fall into temptation and sin from time to time... but if we confess and repent of them then we have an advocate in Christ.

You know thinking about all this, I realize that the same Spirit that is in Francis Chan, to challenge and reject it if necessary; man-made theology, traditions, and non-biblical practices, is the same Spirit that is in me.

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