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Did Jesus pay for ALL sin (past, present, and future sin)?


carlos123

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Eternal security, OSAS, both have differing doctrines but both end with the same destination.

Jesus died for our sins. Past, present and future.

Simply asked like this...

I was not living when Jesus died for me, I was not born. What past sins had I committed? (unless you mean original sin, and that is a whole new ballgame). God knew the ones yet to come out of me, and had already forgiven me for them through the blood. The moment the "first revelation" (from the Latin velum - veil, or parchment, hence lifting or tearing of the veil) occurred at the time of the death of Jesus, we live under an open heaven, and God has told us that none will snatch us from His hand. None.

So I stand under an open heaven, in His light. I am saved, sanctified, redeemed, and have no need to fear that every transgression of Law (and we all make them, it is impossible not to), will send me into darkness. The veil of darkness, and the parchment of law is torn, I stand in light.

The only hole in this thinking is that from where God sits, time is not a restriction... Forgiveness happens in His dimension, where in time that blood was/is shed is irrelevant. From where God is, it all happens on one continuum... past, present and future are all but one to Him. Believing in Jesus, being baptized, and having faith in Him is not a one time affirmation... it is an ongoing affirmation that you profess daily from the time that you believed on... Now I am not saying that if one becomes weak, backslides, and doesn't die to self everyday that they will lose the promise... but what I am saying is that in time, with enough unrepentant rebellion and backsliding, one can fall out of the promise. That's what Hebrews is saying. So this is a very basic fundamental doctrine that cannot be denied. To deny it is to deny scripture and the Truth... to deny this is to set no boundaries for the manifestation of faith and belief... and the road is narrow and has boundaries. Jesus clearly explains this as the Lamb as well as later in scripture as the Lion... Again, I am not one who supports that one can never really be sure of their salvation because I believe those that are in Him and He in them, have eternal life and have that blessed assurance. I do support that one's faith and belief must be manifested in their walk for life. Obedience is a manifestation of faith... to love Yeshua is to obey Him. You can fall, stumble, and backslide temporarily and He will gladly accept us back when we repent of our lusts/sin and seek Him... but if you abuse the grace then you might be crossing the Galatians 6 boundary...

Gal 6:7-8 The Scriptures 1998+

(7) Do not be led astray: Elohim is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he shall also reap.

(8) Because he who sows to his own flesh shall reap corruption from the flesh, but he who sows to the Spirit shall reap everlasting life from the Spirit.

Whose righteousness gets the saints to heaven, their own or the righteousness of Christ imputed to them?

Will your car run on gasoline if there is no engine?

Is it possible to claim to have Christ's righteousness and be a liar?

How is His righteousness manifested?

Are there conditions to get into heaven? Even after conversion?

What does Rev 22:11-14 mean?

ISR 1998

(11) “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart.

(12) “And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work.1

(13) “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.

(14) “Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city.

So to answer your question, His Righteousness is manifested in our believing. Our believing is manifested by our faith. Our faith is manifested in our love for Christ. Our love for Christ is manifested in our obedience in His commandments. His righteousness affords us the ability to either reject or accept His Truth.

http://hissheep.org/...at_calvary.html

So to question your answer, does the believer who does not walk in perfect obedience go to heaven on their righteousness or the righteousness of Christ? Or do they go to heaven?

Okay, I'll try this again. By saying "believer", I will assume you mean a person who meets the prerequisites to be called a "believer"... the prerequisites being such things as being born again, walking the victory of the spirit, obeying His commandments, giving spirit, loving Christ, loving His church, and working out their salvation in faith. All these are manifestations of the faith of the believer. The fruits are evident. As far as walking in perfect obedience, I don't know exactly what you mean by that... You're either walking in obedience or you're not... if we stumble and sin while walking in obedience, then we have to confess it, repent of it and will remain in obedience. If you stumble and sin, don't confess it, and don't repent of it, then you aren't walking in obedience. If we're walking in disobedience, after coming to the knowledge of truth, that doesn't mean we automatically fall from grace but it does mean that we've started down that road to breaking the covenant. Sin can lead to more sin, which leads to other sin, and before you know it, you're outside of God's Will. From Experience, I know God will take us back once we repent in humility and cry out for His grace though. We need to have reverence for God that we don't die in disobedience...nothing is guaranteed at that point. It is the obedient that can claim God's righteousness through Christ. Because the lukewarm believer, walking in disobedience, will be spit out.

And you've also made an assumption that we agree on what "imputed righteousness of Christ" is. You probably have this huge theology understanding of it, but my understanding of the righteousness, sanctification and redemption of Christ is what gives us the ability to have our previous sins forgiven... His Righteousness is from Him having no sin, and from dying, becoming the curse for man, and being resurrected .. and thus empowering us to walk in His Righteousness, having victory over sin. If we do sin after coming to the Knowledge, confess it, repent of it, then we are cleansed from that sin. It's not a free go to heaven ticket for anyone claiming to be a believer. If that was the case then Christ wouldn't have said "get away from me, I never knew you"... because those whom He rejects have and will have failed at meeting the basic prerequisites of a believer. There are many who call themselves a "believer" who aren't. So when a true believer goes to heaven, it will have been because of Christs wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption from God that it made it possible to believe, repent, and walk in the spirit. So it will always fall back to what He done on the cross, in that it was God's New Covenant established unto to man, to forgive man for his previously committed sins. Once you're under the new covenant, there is no excuse to walk in the flesh and sin but rather we are empowered to walk in the spirit without sin. That doesn't mean we don't fall into temptation and sin from time to time... but if we confess and repent of them then we have an advocate in Christ.

You know thinking about all this, I realize that the same Spirit that is in Francis Chan, to challenge and reject it if necessary; man-made theology, traditions, and non-biblical practices, is the same Spirit that is in me.

so after all that I take it is the not Christ's righteousness but the person's. Thanks, I will stick with believing it is the righteousness of Christ and being in Christ that makes the difference. But I do agree that the just will live by faith and be following the leadership of the Holy Spirit(Rom 8:14). But we add nothing to His righteousness and that is what paid our sin debt and gave us peace with God by grace through faith in His Son and having heard the gospel we believed and were sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption(Eph 1:13-14)

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Eternal security, OSAS, both have differing doctrines but both end with the same destination.

Jesus died for our sins. Past, present and future.

Simply asked like this...

I was not living when Jesus died for me, I was not born. What past sins had I committed? (unless you mean original sin, and that is a whole new ballgame). God knew the ones yet to come out of me, and had already forgiven me for them through the blood. The moment the "first revelation" (from the Latin velum - veil, or parchment, hence lifting or tearing of the veil) occurred at the time of the death of Jesus, we live under an open heaven, and God has told us that none will snatch us from His hand. None.

So I stand under an open heaven, in His light. I am saved, sanctified, redeemed, and have no need to fear that every transgression of Law (and we all make them, it is impossible not to), will send me into darkness. The veil of darkness, and the parchment of law is torn, I stand in light.

The only hole in this thinking is that from where God sits, time is not a restriction... Forgiveness happens in His dimension, where in time that blood was/is shed is irrelevant. From where God is, it all happens on one continuum... past, present and future are all but one to Him. Believing in Jesus, being baptized, and having faith in Him is not a one time affirmation... it is an ongoing affirmation that you profess daily from the time that you believed on... Now I am not saying that if one becomes weak, backslides, and doesn't die to self everyday that they will lose the promise... but what I am saying is that in time, with enough unrepentant rebellion and backsliding, one can fall out of the promise. That's what Hebrews is saying. So this is a very basic fundamental doctrine that cannot be denied. To deny it is to deny scripture and the Truth... to deny this is to set no boundaries for the manifestation of faith and belief... and the road is narrow and has boundaries. Jesus clearly explains this as the Lamb as well as later in scripture as the Lion... Again, I am not one who supports that one can never really be sure of their salvation because I believe those that are in Him and He in them, have eternal life and have that blessed assurance. I do support that one's faith and belief must be manifested in their walk for life. Obedience is a manifestation of faith... to love Yeshua is to obey Him. You can fall, stumble, and backslide temporarily and He will gladly accept us back when we repent of our lusts/sin and seek Him... but if you abuse the grace then you might be crossing the Galatians 6 boundary...

Gal 6:7-8 The Scriptures 1998+

(7) Do not be led astray: Elohim is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he shall also reap.

(8) Because he who sows to his own flesh shall reap corruption from the flesh, but he who sows to the Spirit shall reap everlasting life from the Spirit.

Whose righteousness gets the saints to heaven, their own or the righteousness of Christ imputed to them?

Will your car run on gasoline if there is no engine?

Is it possible to claim to have Christ's righteousness and be a liar?

How is His righteousness manifested?

Are there conditions to get into heaven? Even after conversion?

What does Rev 22:11-14 mean?

ISR 1998

(11) “He who does wrong, let him do more wrong; he who is filthy, let him be more filthy; he who is righteous, let him be more righteous; he who is set-apart, let him be more set-apart.

(12) “And see, I am coming speedily, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according to his work.1

(13) “I am the ‘Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.

(14) “Blessed are those doing His commands, so that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of life, and to enter through the gates into the city.

So to answer your question, His Righteousness is manifested in our believing. Our believing is manifested by our faith. Our faith is manifested in our love for Christ. Our love for Christ is manifested in our obedience in His commandments. His righteousness affords us the ability to either reject or accept His Truth.

http://hissheep.org/...at_calvary.html

So to question your answer, does the believer who does not walk in perfect obedience go to heaven on their righteousness or the righteousness of Christ? Or do they go to heaven?

Okay, I'll try this again. By saying "believer", I will assume you mean a person who meets the prerequisites to be called a "believer"... the prerequisites being such things as being born again, walking the victory of the spirit, obeying His commandments, giving spirit, loving Christ, loving His church, and working out their salvation in faith. All these are manifestations of the faith of the believer. The fruits are evident. As far as walking in perfect obedience, I don't know exactly what you mean by that... You're either walking in obedience or you're not... if we stumble and sin while walking in obedience, then we have to confess it, repent of it and will remain in obedience. If you stumble and sin, don't confess it, and don't repent of it, then you aren't walking in obedience. If we're walking in disobedience, after coming to the knowledge of truth, that doesn't mean we automatically fall from grace but it does mean that we've started down that road to breaking the covenant. Sin can lead to more sin, which leads to other sin, and before you know it, you're outside of God's Will. From Experience, I know God will take us back once we repent in humility and cry out for His grace though. We need to have reverence for God that we don't die in disobedience...nothing is guaranteed at that point. It is the obedient that can claim God's righteousness through Christ. Because the lukewarm believer, walking in disobedience, will be spit out.

And you've also made an assumption that we agree on what "imputed righteousness of Christ" is. You probably have this huge theology understanding of it, but my understanding of the righteousness, sanctification and redemption of Christ is what gives us the ability to have our previous sins forgiven... His Righteousness is from Him having no sin, and from dying, becoming the curse for man, and being resurrected .. and thus empowering us to walk in His Righteousness, having victory over sin. If we do sin after coming to the Knowledge, confess it, repent of it, then we are cleansed from that sin. It's not a free go to heaven ticket for anyone claiming to be a believer. If that was the case then Christ wouldn't have said "get away from me, I never knew you"... because those whom He rejects have and will have failed at meeting the basic prerequisites of a believer. There are many who call themselves a "believer" who aren't. So when a true believer goes to heaven, it will have been because of Christs wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption from God that it made it possible to believe, repent, and walk in the spirit. So it will always fall back to what He done on the cross, in that it was God's New Covenant established unto to man, to forgive man for his previously committed sins. Once you're under the new covenant, there is no excuse to walk in the flesh and sin but rather we are empowered to walk in the spirit without sin. That doesn't mean we don't fall into temptation and sin from time to time... but if we confess and repent of them then we have an advocate in Christ.

You know thinking about all this, I realize that the same Spirit that is in Francis Chan, to challenge and reject it if necessary; man-made theology, traditions, and non-biblical practices, is the same Spirit that is in me.

so after all that I take it is the not Christ's righteousness but the person's. Thanks, I will stick with believing it is the righteousness of Christ and being in Christ that makes the difference. But I do agree that the just will live by faith and be following the leadership of the Holy Spirit(Rom 8:14). But we add nothing to His righteousness and that is what paid our sin debt and gave us peace with God by grace through faith in His Son and having heard the gospel we believed and were sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption(Eph 1:13-14)

Nah, you aren't reading what I said, which I kind of figured being that you were just presenting me with a loaded canned question, not really wanting to engage in real discussion. You can't pull any one verse out of the bible and create an entire theology around it. If you do, you will get the rest of the bible to say what you want it to say.

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Which I don't mean to come across bitter about it, but I am glad you presented the challenged question. Christ's righteousness makes it all possible... it will always fall back to boasting in that.

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I was talking to a friend this morning who is not certain that Jesus paid the penalty for ALL sin and thought this might make a good topic to discuss here.

Thus...this post.

However if I might venture to set some parameters for this thread (I mean I can't stop anyone from doing otherwise but hopefully those who post will have some measure of godly self-control in sticking to the thread topic)...this thread is about the topic of whether Jesus paid the penalty for ALL sin.

It is NOT about once saved always saved or related issues (i.e. Amernian vs Calvinism of which there is already a very good thread about that here) though I grant you that one's stand on the question I raise does tie into the once saved always saved / one can lose their salvation controversy. But it is not directly about that. So PLEASE...stick to the topic at hand.

Once again the topic is did Jesus pay the penalty for ALL sin, once for all time (for ALL of our past, present, and future sin all rolled into the one sacrifice on the cross).

What does the Bible say about that? And is it definitively clear or not on this issue?

I personally believe the Bible is clear in saying that His death was for ALL sin once for ALL time. When I say ALL I mean exactly that. ALL. As in past, present, and future. ALL.

What say ye?

Carlos

Hebrews 7:25

New Living Translation (©2007)

Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf.

The answer is yes, in that on this earth He always offers forgiveness, and He knows what sins you will do all the days of your life even before you are born. However, that does not take away accountability. If one sins, the MUST REPENT and ask Jessus Lord for forgiveness. God bless

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I was talking to a friend this morning who is not certain that Jesus paid the penalty for ALL sin and thought this might make a good topic to discuss here.

Thus...this post.

However if I might venture to set some parameters for this thread (I mean I can't stop anyone from doing otherwise but hopefully those who post will have some measure of godly self-control in sticking to the thread topic)...this thread is about the topic of whether Jesus paid the penalty for ALL sin.

It is NOT about once saved always saved or related issues (i.e. Amernian vs Calvinism of which there is already a very good thread about that here) though I grant you that one's stand on the question I raise does tie into the once saved always saved / one can lose their salvation controversy. But it is not directly about that. So PLEASE...stick to the topic at hand.

Once again the topic is did Jesus pay the penalty for ALL sin, once for all time (for ALL of our past, present, and future sin all rolled into the one sacrifice on the cross).

What does the Bible say about that? And is it definitively clear or not on this issue?

I personally believe the Bible is clear in saying that His death was for ALL sin once for ALL time. When I say ALL I mean exactly that. ALL. As in past, present, and future. ALL.

What say ye?

Carlos

Hebrews 7:25

New Living Translation (©2007)

Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf.

The answer is yes, in that on this earth He always offers forgiveness, and He knows what sins you will do all the days of your life even before you are born. However, that does not take away accountability. If one sins, the MUST REPENT and ask Jessus Lord for forgiveness. God bless

right I agree with that... but as you stated, that forgiveness being implemented is conditional. If they don't repent of that sin, then God will do His part to bring it to their attention. If they continue ignoring the need to repent for a season, and only God knows how long that season is, they can fall from grace. What I am hearing from some Christians is that "Jesus paid for all sins, unrepentant and repentant alike, past, present and future. I actually know Christians professing this. I don't read anywhere in the bible that unrepentant sin is forgiven.

Edited by Spirit_Tracker
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What I am hearing from some Christians is that "Jesus paid for all sins, unrepentant and repentant alike, past, present and future. I actually know Christians professing this. I don't read anywhere in the bible that unrepentant sin is forgiven.

He paid for them all with His death and resurrection, but they are not applied to the sin until true repentance is sought and applied. Those who believe in Universalism believe that everyone will be forgiven despite what they seek or who they follow. This is false teaching and should be avoided at all cost.

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1 John 2:1-2 (NASB95)

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

My little children,

...written to believers

I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.

...the divine intent

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

...practical application of fallen mankind with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

...the vastness of this account Christ created for mankind opens the availability of forgiveness to all

But only those who receive it (accept it) will be saved.

1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB95)

10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

The Savior of all men (potential) especially (or particularly) those who believe (actual).

Once saved... you cannot sin your way out of salvation:

1 Corinthians 5:5 (NASB95)

5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

...you cannot be taken from Jesus:

John 10:27-29 (NASB95)

27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

...you will not walk away:

Jeremiah 32:40 (NASB95)

40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

In fact, if you could do these things, it proves you were never saved in the first place:

1 John 2:19 (NASB95)

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

The real question is... Are you TRULY saved?

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Romans 12:1 (NASB95)

1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

"The problem with living sacrifices," Dr. Chuck Swindoll so eloquently stated, "is that we keep climbing down off of the altar."

1 Corinthians 7:23 (NASB95)

23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (NASB95)

19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

It is high time God started seeing some returns in our lives on this deal!

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1 John 2:1-2 (NASB95)

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

My little children,

...written to believers

I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin.

...the divine intent

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

...practical application of fallen mankind with the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

...the vastness of this account Christ created for mankind opens the availability of forgiveness to all

But only those who receive it (accept it) will be saved.

1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB95)

10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

The Savior of all men (potential) especially (or particularly) those who believe (actual).

Once saved... you cannot sin your way out of salvation:

1 Corinthians 5:5 (NASB95)

5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

...you cannot be taken from Jesus:

John 10:27-29 (NASB95)

27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;

28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

...you will not walk away:

Jeremiah 32:40 (NASB95)

40 “I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me.

In fact, if you could do these things, it proves you were never saved in the first place:

1 John 2:19 (NASB95)

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

The real question is... Are you TRULY saved?

What does this mean?

Heb 6:4-8 NASB

(4) For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

(5) and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

(6) and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

(7) For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;

(8) but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

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Hebrews 6:4-8 speaking about a person who was really saved... you can't be really saved and have been made partaker with the Holy Spirit.

The point is, it is possible to fall out of salvation according to this verse. It is an absolute possibility. Now God loves His children and will extend to them what He sees fit... and he may pardon whom ever He wants to. But we have a clear and concise set of guidelines to follow... And we have to remember, that the Law of the Spirit is not just a bunch or rules and guidelines that are given to us for the sake of restrictions... they are there for our own good too. God set forth an order in the beginning of time... and these commandments are there to protect us from the effects of His Justice.

No-one outside of yourself can take you away from Jesus.

Edited by Spirit_Tracker
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