Jump to content
IGNORED

Did Jesus pay for ALL sin (past, present, and future sin)?


carlos123

Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  2
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  61
  • Content Per Day:  0.02
  • Reputation:   3
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  02/17/2013
  • Status:  Offline

I'm late in this thread I know...

But....

If I love the Lord and I want to please Him, why would I continue in sin if I knew it displeases Him and grieves the Holy Spirit?

That makes no sense.

Abusing the love of Christ/God is at odds with loving Him and wanting to please Him.

I agree.. i hear Christians profess that "we all sin daily, and thank God for the Blood".... and that isn't biblical. What it is--is a defeated Christian with no evident Power to overcome, or no real love as you said. To say that we sin daily is to say that we practice sin...

1Jn 3:9-10 NASB No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (10) By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

We don't have to nor should we sin daily... that would be practicing it. I stumble into temptation a few times a month... maybe up to 4 to 5 roughly, I don't keep track of the number. But these aren't the practice of sin... such as pornography, alcoholism, lying, cheating, slandering, sensuality, idolatry, strife, jealousy, rivalries, dissensions, envy, orgies, and so on... etc etc. I rarely lie, I don't practice it, but it does still happen from time to time, and I always repent of it. The other one is my anger... that is one that I have the most problem with but even it is no longer practiced but rather a weakness from time to time. I pray constantly on it and meditate on the repenting of it. I am not sinless, but I don't sin daily either. It's because of my love for Christ that I strive to be sinless. I am not saying that Christians who do sin daily are hell bound, especially if they repent daily,... but they are living in a powerless state in that they aren't over-comers. If they are a true Christian, then they need to know that God hasn't called them to sin daily and He provided the power to overcome it at the cross. Now if they practice sin, which I understand as the aforementioned practices, as well as others, then I do believe they are in danger of apostasy. An example would be someone who claims to be saved but sells used cars, and deliberately and habitually lies to people to sell one... or someone who claims to be saved but still engages in habitual immoral sexual acts; fornications, adultery, etc etc. This is the lie of Satan... that they have believed . Believe it or not, I believe there is a major difference here in sin. One sin is practiced (can you think of a sin that is practiced?) and the other is an occasional non-practiced sin/temptation that is repented of immediately and whole-heartedly prays against.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  3,130
  • Content Per Day:  0.69
  • Reputation:   1,090
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  11/03/2011
  • Status:  Offline

How many times does Christ need to be Crucified on the Cross? Was He the perfect Lamb Slain for the sins of the world?

In Christ

Montana Marv

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  2
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  61
  • Content Per Day:  0.02
  • Reputation:   3
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  02/17/2013
  • Status:  Offline

How many times does Christ need to be Crucified on the Cross? Was He the perfect Lamb Slain for the sins of the world?

In Christ

Montana Marv

True but I am not sure how you are applying this... The perfect Lamb was slain for the sins of the world and those who believe, repent and are saved receive this new covenant. It's an offering...Those who don't believe this will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

The point of hammering this topic out is important because there may be those reading this thread who are believers and believe they are saved under false teachings. I am not here to vainly debate with the Christians but rather to use scripture to expose lies. It is our job as mature Christians to refute and correct any false doctrine. I am not here to win a debate but in meekness and fear to share what God's Holy Spirit has lead me to.

2 Timothy 3:16

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

1 Peter3:15

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

2 Timothy 4:2

Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

1 Thessalonians 5:21

Test all things; hold fast what is good.

I have been addressing this thread on the pretense that the OP is asking if Jesus paid for all sins past, present and future covering unrepentant and repentant sin, alike. There are Christians that believe that their unrepentant sin, no matter how many, or how often, is automatically paid for as though turning from sin is optional once the Blood has been applied. As though sin no longer exists. Thus they believe they aren't in danger of judgement for practicing sin. This is a false doctrine and needs to be discussed and debated. Why? because it's a lie. Sin is still vile and disgusting to God now, as it was any time before. It still quenches the Holy Spirit and can still cut off our relationship with God... And according to scripture, sinning after receiving God's gift in Christ, is highly discouraged and if one does sin, then they must repent or be in danger of the weed growing and strangling out the fruit. No fruit = dead tree, worthless and will be burned. I don't want to get into the debate of who is really saved to begin with and who really isn't. That is fruitless... because everyone has been given the option of believing. We must assume that everyone has either been saved or can be saved.

Let us look at and expose this false doctrine for what it is.

If Jesus paid for our present and future sins without the need to turn from them, after being baptized and coming under the new covenant... then consider the following illustration;

Commandment; Eph 4:29-31 ‘Let no unwholesome word proceed out of your mouth, but only such a word that is good for edification according to the need at the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.

False teaching; Technically optional. But if you do grieve the Holy Spirit, and don't repent, then don't worry about it, it's covered by Jesus's once and for all sacrifice.

Commandment: Eph 4:32 ‘Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.’

False teaching: Technically optional. But if you do hate others and don't forgive them, and don't repent, then don't worry about it, it's covered by Jesus's once and for all sacrifice.

Commandment: Matt 7:12 'So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.'

False teaching: Technically optional. But if you are a selfish believer, or hoarding your income and not giving a red cent for His ministries, and don't repent, then don't worry about it, it's covered by Jesus's once and for all sacrifice.

Commandment: Matt 5:14 'You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. " In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.'

False teaching: Technically optional. But if you are a closet believer and act worldly in front of people, and don't repent, then don't worry about it, it's covered by Jesus's once and for all sacrifice.

This false doctrine that teaches that Jesus paid for all of their sins, repentant and unrepentant alike, present and future, renders ALL His commandments optional for the sins are bought and paid for.

Some have said that these people who eventually fall away from sinning, after coming to the Knowledge of Truth, were never really saved to begin with and they were always lost.

However, the scriptures teach us the contrary to this incorrect teaching.

Why would the Son of God waste His time rebuking those who were never really saved to begin with? People want to isolate various verses and build theology from it, without incorporating the whole of scripture. Clearly Jesus continues to reach out to those are potential believers, lukewarm believers, who may or may not be saved in the end. Why?

Rev 3:2-4 NASB 'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. (3) 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. (4) 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

and

Rev 3:14-22 NASB "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: (15) 'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. (16) 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. (17) 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, (18) I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. (19) 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. (20) 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. (21) 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. (22) 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"

Wow, Jesus is telling the lukewarm believers that they are in danger of damnation because they aren't cold or hot. That means they, even those who call themselves believers, but are useless to God, are currently in a state of threat of damnation. But He loves them and wants to discipline them so that they might repent... repent from what? If the blood has covered them, they why would they be spit out? It is because their sin has rendered them useless... even after coming to the Knowledge of Truth. But yet, Jesus still knocks at the door... and wants to forgive them if and when they repent. These are so called believers who still have the potential to be saved. There are some that believe that this church can be applied to a lot of American churches!

In conclusion I quote Matthew Henry's Commentary on Rev 3:14-22. I have said all that I can say on this matter, and it is up to those who genuinely seek the Truth of this matter to pray and ask God for guidance.

Revelation 3:14-22

"We now come to the last and worst of all the seven Asian churches, the reverse of the church of Philadelphia; for, as there was nothing reproved in that, here is nothing commended in this, and yet this was one of the seven golden candlesticks, for a corrupt church may still be a church. Here we have, as before,

I. The inscription, to whom, and from whom. 1. To whom: To the angel of the church of Laodicea. This was a once famous city near the river Lycus, had a wall of vast compass, and three marble theatres, and, like Rome, was built on seven hills. It seems, the apostle Paul was very instrumental in planting the gospel in this city, from which he wrote a letter, as he mentions in the epistle to the Colossians, the last chapter, in which he sends salutations to them, Laodicea not being above twenty miles distant from Colosse. In this city was held a council in the fourth century, but it has been long since demolished, and lies in its ruins to this day, an awful monument of the wrath of the Lamb. 2. From whom this message was sent. Here our Lord Jesus styles himself the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God. (1.) The Amen, one that is steady and unchangeable in all his purposes and promises, which are all yea, and all amen. (2.) The faithful and true witness, whose testimony of God to men ought to be received and fully believed, and whose testimony of men to God will be fully believed and regarded, and will be a swift but true witness against all indifferent lukewarm professors. (3.) The beginning of the creation of God, either of the first creation, and so he is the beginning, that is, the first cause, the Creator, and the Governor of it; or of the second creation, the church; and so he is the head of that body, the first-born from the dead, as it is in Rev_1:5, whence these titles are taken. Christ, having raised up himself by his own divine power, as the head of a new world, raises up dead souls to be a living temple and church to himself.

II. The subject-matter, in which observe,

1. The heavy charge drawn up against this church, ministers and people, by one who knew them better than they knew themselves: Thou art neither cold nor hot, but worse than either; I would thou wert cold or hot, Rev_3:15. Lukewarmness or indifference in religion is the worst temper in the world. If religion is a real thing, it is the most excellent thing, and therefore we should be in good earnest in it; if it is not a real thing, it is the vilest imposture, and we should be earnest against it. If religion is worth any thing, it is worth every thing; an indifference here is inexcusable: Why halt you between two opinions? If God be God, follow him; if Baal (be God), follow him. Here is no room for neutrality. An open enemy shall have a fairer quarter than a perfidious neuter; and there is more hope of a heathen than of such. Christ expects that men should declare themselves in earnest either for him or against him.

2. A severe punishment threatened: I will spue thee out of my mouth. As lukewarm water turns the stomach, and provokes to a vomit, lukewarm professors turn the heart of Christ against them. He is sick of them, and cannot long bear them. They may call their lukewarmness charity, meekness, moderation, and a largeness of soul; it is nauseous to Christ, and makes those so that allow themselves in it. They shall be rejected, and finally rejected; for far be it from the holy Jesus to return to that which has been thus rejected.

3. We have one cause of this indifference and inconsistency in religion assigned, and that is self-conceitedness or self-delusion. They thought they were very well already, and therefore they were very indifferent whether they grew better or no: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, etc., Rev_3:17. Here observe, What a difference there was between the thoughts they had of themselves and the thoughts that Christ had of them. (1.) The high thoughts they had of themselves: Thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing, rich, and growing richer, and increased to such a degree as to be above all want or possibility of wanting. Perhaps they were well provided for as to their bodies, and this made them overlook the necessities of their souls. Or they thought themselves well furnished in their souls: they had learning, and they took it for religion; they had gifts, and they took them for grace; they had wit, and they took it for true wisdom; they had ordinances, and they took up with them instead of the God of ordinances. How careful should we be not to put the cheat upon our own souls! Doubtless there are many in hell that once thought themselves to be in the way to heaven. Let us daily beg of God that we may not be left to flatter and deceive ourselves in the concerns of our souls. (2.) The mean thoughts that Christ had of them; and he was not mistaken. He knew, though they knew not, that they were wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. Their state was wretched in itself, and such as called for pity and compassion from others: though they were proud of themselves, they were pitied by all who knew their case. For, [1.] They were poor, really poor, when they said and thought they were rich; they had no provision for their souls to live upon; their souls were starving in the midst of their abundance; they were vastly in debt to the justice of God, and had nothing to pay off the least part of the debt. [2.] They were blind; they could not see their state, nor their way, nor their danger; they could not see into themselves; they could not look before them; they were blind, and yet they thought they saw; the very light that was in them was darkness, and then how great must that darkness be! They could not see Christ, though evidently set forth, and crucified, before their eyes. They could not see God by faith, though always present in them. They could not see death, though it was just before them. They could not look into eternity, though they stood upon the very brink of it continually. [3.] They were naked, without clothing and without house and harbour for their souls. They were without clothing, had neither the garment of justification nor that of sanctification. Their nakedness both of guilt and pollution had no covering. They lay always exposed to sin and shame. Their righteousnesses were but filthy rags; they were rags, and would not cover them, filthy rags, and would defile them. And they were naked, without house or harbour, for they were without God, and he has been the dwelling-place of his people in all ages; in him alone the soul of man can find rest, and safety, and all suitable accommodations. The riches of the body will not enrich the soul; the sight of the body will not enlighten the soul; the most convenient house for the body will not afford rest nor safety to the soul. The soul is a different thing from the body, and must have accommodation suitable to its nature, or else in the midst of bodily prosperity it will be wretched and miserable.

4. We have good counsel given by Christ to this sinful people, and that is that they drop their vain and false opinion they had of themselves, and endeavour to be that really which they would seem to be: I counsel thee to buy of me, etc., Rev_3:18. Observe, (1.) Our Lord Jesus Christ continues to give good counsel to those who have cast his counsels behind their backs. (2.) The condition of sinners in never desperate, while they enjoy the gracious calls and counsels of Christ. (3.) Our blessed Lord, the counsellor, always gives the best advice, and that which is most suitable to the sinner's case; as here, [1.] These people were poor; Christ counsels them to buy of him gold tried in the fire, that they might be rich. He lets them know where they might have true riches and how they might have them. First, Where they might have them - from himself; he sends them not to the streams of Pactolus, nor to the mines of Potosi, but invites them to himself, the pearl of price. Secondly, And how must they have this true gold from him? They must buy it. This seems to be unsaying all again. How can those that are poor buy gold? Just as they may buy of Christ wine and milk, that is, without money and without price, Isa_55:1. Something indeed must be parted with, but it is nothing of a valuable consideration, it is only to make room for receiving true riches. “Part with sin and self-sufficiency, and come to Christ with a sense of your poverty and emptiness, that you may be filled with his hidden treasure.” [2.] These people were naked; Christ tells them where they might have clothing, and such as would cover the shame of their nakedness. This they must receive from Christ; and they must only put off their filthy rags that they might put on the white raiment which he had purchased and provided for them - his own imputed righteousness for justification and the garments of holiness and sanctification. [3.] They were blind; and he counsels them to buy of him eye-salve, that they might see, to give up their own wisdom and reason, which are but blindness in the things of God, and resign themselves to his word and Spirit, and their eyes shall be opened to see their way and their end, their duty and their true interest; a new and glorious scene would then open itself to their souls; a new world furnished with the most beautiful and excellent objects, and this light would be marvellous to those who were but just now delivered from the powers of darkness. This is the wise and good counsel Christ gives to careless souls; and, if they follow it, he will judge himself bound in honour to make it effectual.

5. Here is added great and gracious encouragement to this sinful people to take the admonition and advice well that Christ had given them, Rev_3:19, Rev_3:20. He tells them, (1.) It was given them in true and tender affection: “Whom I love, I rebuke and chasten. You may think I have given you hard words and severe reproofs; it is all out of love to your souls. I would not have thus openly rebuked and corrected your sinful lukewarmness and vain confidence, if I had not been a lover of your souls; had I hated you, I would have let you alone, to go on in sin till it had been your ruin.” Sinners ought to take the rebukes of God's word and rod as tokens of his good-will to their souls, and should accordingly repent in good earnest, and turn to him that smites them; better are the frowns and wounds of a friend than the flattering smiles of an enemy. (2.) If they would comply with his admonitions, he was ready to make them good to their souls: Behold, I stand at the door and knock, etc., Rev_3:20. Here observe, [1.] Christ is graciously pleased by his word and Spirit to come to the door of the heart of sinners; he draws near to them in a way of mercy, ready to make them a kind visit. [2.] He finds this door shut against him; the heart of man is by nature shut up against Christ by ignorance, unbelief, sinful prejudices. [3.] When he finds the heart shut, he does not immediately withdraw, but he waits to be gracious, even till his head be filled with the dew. [4.] He uses all proper means to awaken sinners, and to cause them to open to him: he calls by his word, he knocks by the impulses of his Spirit upon their conscience. [5.] Those who open to him shall enjoy his presence, to their great comfort and advantage. He will sup with them; he will accept of what is good in them; he will eat his pleasant fruit; and he will bring the best part of the entertainment with him. If what he finds would make but a poor feast, what he brings will make up the deficiency: he will give fresh supplies of graces and comforts, and thereby stir up fresh actings of faith, and love, and delight; and in all this Christ and his repenting people will enjoy pleasant communion with each other. Alas! what do careless obstinate sinners lose by refusing to open the door of the heart to Christ!"

III. We now come to the conclusion of this epistle; and here we have as before,

1. The promise made to the overcoming believer. It is here implied, (1.) That though this church seemed to be wholly overrun and overcome with lukewarmness and self-confidence, yet it was possible that by the reproofs and counsels of Christ they might be inspired with fresh zeal and vigour, and might come off conquerors in their spiritual warfare. (2.) That, if they did so, all former faults should be forgiven, and they should have a great reward. And what is that reward? They shall sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and have sat down with my Father on his throne, Rev_3:21. Here it is intimated, [1.] That Christ himself had met with his temptations and conflicts. [2.] That he overcame them all, and was more than a conqueror. [3.] That, as the reward of his conflict and victory, he has sat down with God the Father on his throne, possessed of that glory which he had with the Father from eternity, but which he was pleased very much to conceal on earth, leaving it as it were in the hands of the Father, as a pledge that he would fulfil the work of a Saviour before he reassumed that manifestative glory; and, having done so, then pignus reposcere - he demands the pledge, to appear in his divine glory equal to the Father. [4.] That those who are conformed to Christ in his trials and victories shall be conformed to him in his glory; they shall sit down with him on his throne, on his throne of judgment at the end of the world, on his throne of glory to all eternity, shining in his beams by virtue of their union with him and relation to him, as the mystical body of which he is the head.

2. All is closed up with the general demand of attention (Rev_3:22), putting all to whom these epistles shall come in mind that what is contained in them is not of private interpretation, not intended for the instruction, reproof, and correction of those particular churches only, but of all the churches of Christ in all ages and parts of the world: and as there will be a resemblance in all succeeding churches to these, both in their graces and sins, so they may expect that God will deal with them as he dealt with these, which are patterns to all ages what faithful, and fruitful churches may expect to receive from God, and what those who are unfaithful may expect to suffer from his hand; yea, that God's dealings with his churches may afford useful instruction to the rest of the world, to put them upon considering, If judgment begin at the house of God, what shall the end of those be that do not obey the gospel of Christ? 1Pe_4:17. Thus end the messages of Christ to the Asian churches, the epistolary part of this book. We now come to the prophetical part.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  19
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  3,130
  • Content Per Day:  0.69
  • Reputation:   1,090
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  11/03/2011
  • Status:  Offline

Christ did die on the Cross as the Perfect sacrifical Lamb. NO if's and's or but's. His blood covered ALL the sins of the world, past, present and future. Those who are in Christ Jesus have the HS as a seal. Are we perfect, No! God the Father sees us through his perfect Son. We cannot lose salvation by our sinning, but our sin does break fellowship with Christ.

But many who say they are believers, may not be (they never were saved in the first place) "I never knew you" But did we not cast out demons in Your Name and perform healing/miricales in Your Name.

Can anyone remove one out of our Fathers Hand, all but impossible, It Cannot happen. Who is stronger, God or someone else.

Sin for the believer breaks fellowship, it does not break salvation.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. All of us are sinners, because we are of the seed of Adam. Christ purchased us out of the market place of sin, we are new. If Christ purchased us, who owns us?

In Christ

Montana Marv

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  6
  • Topic Count:  82
  • Topics Per Day:  0.02
  • Content Count:  602
  • Content Per Day:  0.14
  • Reputation:   233
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  04/15/2012
  • Status:  Offline

I have been battling with this for the last few days, there are a lot of scripture that can go either way on the subject. When I was strictly a OSAS believer I still felt compelled to repent of my big sins, I just felt so convicted inside about them that I would cry and tell God I was so sorry!

Remember Jesus gave us the Lord's prayer?

Matthew 6:9-15 ESV

Pray then like this:

“Our Father in heaven,

hallowed be your name.[a]

10 Your kingdom come,

your will be done,[b]

on earth as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread,[c]

12 and forgive us our debts,

as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation,

but deliver us from evil.[d]

14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So, I propose we live as if we might not be OSAS. How about we keep the ten commandments, and also show repentance when we don't keep them, even if it is just out of love and obedience that we do this? How about we work out our salvation with fear and trembling?

Shalom!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John 15 v 10- " If you keep My commands, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commands and remain in His love." Jesus

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  22
  • Topic Count:  1,294
  • Topics Per Day:  0.21
  • Content Count:  31,762
  • Content Per Day:  5.26
  • Reputation:   9,760
  • Days Won:  115
  • Joined:  09/14/2007
  • Status:  Offline

So, I propose we live as if we might not be OSAS. How about we keep the ten commandments, and also show repentance when we don't keep them, even if it is just out of love and obedience that we do this? How about we work out our salvation with fear and trembling?

Shalom!

I suggest that you become familiar with how He speaks to you through His Spirit. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin and while we remain in this world, He still convicts us. The closer we are to God, the more we recognize His voice. Trying to obey on our own is works. Following His leading is obedience. There is a difference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  2
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  61
  • Content Per Day:  0.02
  • Reputation:   3
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  02/17/2013
  • Status:  Offline

14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

So, I propose we live as if we might not be OSAS. How about we keep the ten commandments, and also show repentance when we don't keep them, even if it is just out of love and obedience that we do this? How about we work out our salvation with fear and trembling?

Shalom!

Agreed! Because it's not sinning that can cause us to fall away, it's continuous unrepentant sin... it's an active and deliberate rejection of His commandments, after knowing Him, based from our own worldly lusts... like the Lukewarm church in Revelation. It isn't easy to fall away but if you have huge gaping holes in your armor, the enemy will be relentless. He can cause you to go into depression... and not care. Not caring about anything will ultimately lead to delusions and perversions of Truth. Satan can and will entice those who are rebelling. However, God disciplines those He loves. He has more patience than we really know... it isn't an overnight thing... but it is certainly a possibility to fail and be spit out. This is why we must understand God's love but also have complete reverence for Him as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  8
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  195
  • Content Per Day:  0.05
  • Reputation:   24
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  06/10/2012
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  03/25/1993

Concerning this statement " ...it's not sinning that can cause us to fall away, it's continuous unrepentant sin" I have a question. What is meant by the phrase "falling away"? Does it signify the loss of salvation or the loss of a healthy relationship between God and a man? King David lived in a state of unrepented sin for a good while after he had taken Bathsheba and murdered Uriah. Did he lose his eternal salvation, or did he fall out of fellowship with God?

Fellowship, is, as defined by Websters: "Companionship; society; consort; mutual association of persons on equal and friendly terms; familiar intercourse." I can see how we can lose familiar intercourse and mutual association with God on friendly terms if we, as Christians, are living in unrepented sin. I cannot, however, understand how we could lose our eternal salvation before God by the works (whether good or bad) that we do, because that would contradict Scripture by making salvation dependent upon ourselves and not upon Christ's work on the cross.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God...

Ephesians 2:8

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Members
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  2
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  61
  • Content Per Day:  0.02
  • Reputation:   3
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  02/17/2013
  • Status:  Offline

Concerning this statement " ...it's not sinning that can cause us to fall away, it's continuous unrepentant sin" I have a question. What is meant by the phrase "falling away"? Does it signify the loss of salvation or the loss of a healthy relationship between God and a man? King David lived in a state of unrepented sin for a good while after he had taken Bathsheba and murdered Uriah. Did he lose his eternal salvation, or did he fall out of fellowship with God?

Fellowship, is, as defined by Websters: "Companionship; society; consort; mutual association of persons on equal and friendly terms; familiar intercourse." I can see how we can lose familiar intercourse and mutual association with God on friendly terms if we, as Christians, are living in unrepented sin. I cannot, however, understand how we could lose our eternal salvation before God by the works (whether good or bad) that we do, because that would contradict Scripture by making salvation dependent upon ourselves and not upon Christ's work on the cross.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God...

Ephesians 2:8

AlexanderJ, review my previous comments. There are verses that define what falling away is, which is the same as "departing the faith" aka Apostasy All these verses that I reference give strong indications that the believers were living in sin, and fell away... some fell out of the Truth and could not be renewed again, whiles others were lukewarm and were rebuked and warned to repent or be spit out of God's mouth... Hebrews 6:- gives a strong indication that believers are able "turn from the truth"... why do you think they turned? Because they were never really saved? No... to say that is a cop out. They turned away because they committed adultery with God under the new covenant by following after their own lusts (sins). The bible even speaks of a "sin leading death" for a believer...

1Jn 5:16-19 NASB If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. (17) All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death. (18) We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. (19) We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

Apostasy; refers to the rejection of Christianity by someone who formerly was a Christian.

The only way the once saved, always saved will work is if we elaborate a bit more... "once saved, always saved for those who remain in Christ."... again, the same goes for the "Blood at the cross forgives for past, present and future sins for those who remain in Christ by loving Him, obeying His commandments, and enduring until the end."

Look up Tim Conway on Youtube under "Can I lose My Faith"...

In 2 Co 13:5 NASB "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?", we are to test our faith. And is it possible to fail the test????

Now as far as Ephesians 2:8... first, there is no way to extract one verse from the bible and have a full understanding of it. All of them compliment one another and MUST be understood as the whole Word of God. Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved through faith... well what is faith? A one time feeling you get? A one time acknowledgement? Faith is a loaded word... the word, just that single word, has a 66 book definition. Second, you MUST have a full understanding of what faith means... Search on Youtube Dave Hunt "The Seduction of Christianity Part 1- faith" as he gives the best description of what faith means than any I have ever heard. It's a little dated.. but it's an oldie but goody.

1Ti 4:14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

1Ti 4:15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.

1Ti 4:16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Is Paul lying to them? How can we "ensure" our salvation? By walking in good works in Christ, be absorbed in the spiritual gifts given to you and by meditating on scriptures. That's what happens when we really have Christ in us. It's evident.

Fear God, because we don't know it all... because apostates rarely refer themselves to being that... and I would NEVER bank off an OSAS theology, ever. Even if the verses provided in my comments don't out right say that apostates will lose their salvation, there are strong indications that God will judge them with unfavorable results. Look at what happened to Ananias and Sapphira... they were struck down for one lie. Did they lose their salvation? I don't know... I don't want to think they did... for one lie.

Edited by Spirit_Tracker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...