Did Jesus pay for ALL sin (past, present, and future sin)?

[Spirit_Tracker]

In a nutshell,... Visualize this; Salvation or being saved is like the following illustration...

You were drowning in a sea of your own unrepentant sin... and had no hope because you were not able to deliver yourself out. Jesus walks out on the sea of sin, and pulls you out and places you safely into His Boat. He tells you have been saved from your sin but you must now abstain from sin and walk in righteousness, under His righteousness. You thank Him and tell Him that you will follow His ways so that you may not fall back into the sea of your own unrepentant sin again, like a dog returning to his own vomit. He tells you that no-one can snatch you from His protection now... and that you must live out this salvation in faith never returning to your former state of unrepentant sin. You are now saved... but the choice; not return to the former state, is ongoing until the end. Because if you do return, and many have and will, you can not be rescued again as a free gift. The rescue is only offered once... is there still hope for those who return to their former state of unrepentant sin? I believe there is hope as long as you breath... but you will be in danger of damnation at that point. The falling away doesn't happen in one big leap... it isn't something that you decide over night... the whole time you are trying to return to your former state, through unrepentant sin, Jesus has a hold of you with a strong grip... He is warning you to stop... He is warning us about what will happen if we don't repent and come back aboard... but if you pull long and hard enough, He will let you go and you will end up falling away/drowning again... and if you die in that former state, then you put His death to shame and it would have been better for you to not to have been saved in the first place.

But some of you say it is impossible for this believer to return to His former state because when Jesus rescues you, He does so permanently... and it is permanent if you don't return to your former state of unrepentant sin, but when you are saved, do you lose free will? Does our freedom of will suddenly get taken away from us? Yes we are enslaved to His Will but cannot a slave choice death over slavery? Satan held a very high place in heaven... he had eternal security but he "abused" his privileges... he abused God's love and was thrown out. God didn't force him to change... He didn't say Satan you are a slave to me...

Meditate on these verses in Ezekiel;

Eze 33:13 "When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die.

Eze 33:14 "But when I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness,

Eze 33:15 if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Eze 33:16 "None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him. He has practiced justice and righteousness; he shall surely live.

Eze 33:17 "Yet your fellow citizens say, 'The way of the Lord is not right,' when it is their own way that is not right.

Eze 33:18 "When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it.

Have reverence for God,

Bro Randy.

[GoldenEagle]

As reminder these threads are discussions and should be approached as such asking questions - not as a teacher/student conversation. Please continue with this in mind.

God bless,

GE

[Montana Marv]

I like the parable of the Prodical Son. Luke 15:11-31 v24 - for this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found...

When was this "son" not the fathers "son"? He was always his son, in obedience or disobedience. His "son-ship" never changed.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[AlexanderJ]

Now as far as Ephesians 2:8... first, there is no way to extract one verse from the bible and have a full understanding of it. All of them compliment one another and MUST be understood as the whole Word of God. Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved through faith... well what is faith? A one time feeling you get? A one time acknowledgement? Faith is a loaded word... the word, just that single word, has a 66 book definition. Second, you MUST have a full understanding of what faith means... Search on Youtube Dave Hunt "The Seduction of Christianity Part 1- faith" as he gives the best description of what faith means than any I have ever heard. It's a little dated.. but it's an oldie but goody.

The verse says what it says (and pretty clearly, I might add), and what is says is not going to change. I also think that it is rather presumptuous for you to assert my ignorance in regard to the meaning of "faith" and of my knowledge of Scripture. "Faith" does not have a 66 book definition. Faith is defined by Webster's as:

Faith, n. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by

another, resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity;

reliance on testimony.

You might say "We can lose salvation by ceasing to believe". If we could lose our salvation by ceasing to believe, our position as "Sons of God" would be meaningless, as would our spiritual rebirth into the family of God. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is Spirit...Ye must be born again (by the Spirit)". I ask, How is unbirth possible? How, once we have been born of God, can we be unborn back into our old position? Wouldn't this contradict the meaning of the word "Son"? A son, by definition, will always be his father's son. It doesn't matter whether the father disowns the son or whether the son disowns the father - the positional relationship of Father and Son remains unchanged. This position cannot be changed without contradicting the definition of the words "Son" and "Father. God uses the words "Father" and "Son" to show us the irrevocability of our choice.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

[Spirit_Tracker]

Now as far as Ephesians 2:8... first, there is no way to extract one verse from the bible and have a full understanding of it. All of them compliment one another and MUST be understood as the whole Word of God. Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved through faith... well what is faith? A one time feeling you get? A one time acknowledgement? Faith is a loaded word... the word, just that single word, has a 66 book definition. Second, you MUST have a full understanding of what faith means... Search on Youtube Dave Hunt "The Seduction of Christianity Part 1- faith" as he gives the best description of what faith means than any I have ever heard. It's a little dated.. but it's an oldie but goody.

The verse says what it says (and pretty clearly, I might add), and what is says is not going to change. I also think that it is rather presumptuous for you to assert my ignorance in regard to the meaning of "faith" and of my knowledge of Scripture. "Faith" does not have a 66 book definition. Faith is defined by Webster's as:

Faith, n. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by

another, resting solely and implicitly on his authority and veracity;

reliance on testimony.

You might say "We can lose salvation by ceasing to believe". If we could lose our salvation by ceasing to believe, our position as "Sons of God" would be meaningless, as would our spiritual rebirth into the family of God. Jesus said, "That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is Spirit...Ye must be born again (by the Spirit)". I ask, How is unbirth possible? How, once we have been born of God, can we be unborn back into our old position? Wouldn't this contradict the meaning of the word "Son"? A son, by definition, will always be his father's son. It doesn't matter whether the father disowns the son or whether the son disowns the father - the positional relationship of Father and Son remains unchanged. This position cannot be changed without contradicting the definition of the words "Son" and "Father. God uses the words "Father" and "Son" to show us the irrevocability of our choice.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Sorry, I wasn't presuming you didn't know what faith is... This is just how I engage in discussion... trying not to leave anything out.

For every prophet of old and new, Faith in Him = Trust in Him = Love Him = Obedience to Him = Does the Will of Him (Works).

Using a few of God's chosen, here is a basic road map to what faith really is in it's completeness;

Noah - . Faith in Him = Trust in Him = Love Him = Obedience to Him = Does the Will of Him (Works).

Moses - Faith in Him = Trust in Him = Love Him = Obedience to Him = Does the Will of Him (Works).

Jesus - Faith in Father = Trust in Father = Love Father = Obedience to Father = Does the Will of Father (Works).

Paul - Faith in Him = Trust in Him = Love Him = Obedience to Him = Does the Will of Him (Works).

James - Faith in Him = Trust in Him = Love Him = Obedience to Him = Does the Will of Him (Works).

Which all = evidence...

Now that doesn't make us righteous, no it's Christ's righteousness give us the opportunity to have a relationship with God in the first place.

Jas 2:14-26

(14) My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him.

(15) And if a brother or sister is naked and in need of daily food,

(16) but one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” but you do not give them the bodily needs, what use is it?

(17) So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead.

(18) But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works.

(19) You believe that Elohim is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder!

(20) But do you wish to know, O foolish man, that the belief without the works is dead?

(21) Was not Ab?raham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsh?aq his son on the altar?

(22) Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?

(23) And the Scripture was filled which says, “Abraham believed Elohim, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.” And he was called, “Elohim’s friend.”

(24) You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone.

(25) In the same way, was not Rah?ab? the whore also declared right by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

(26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.

After reading the above verses, wouldn't you agree that there millions of self-proclaimed Christians who think they know what faith is but are not really practicing it? James says that the faith, you noted in Ephesians 2:8, is dead without works. The works is the fruit of your faith. Trust is the manifestation of faith which is the manifestation of love which is the manifestation of obedience which is the manifestation of works. How many Christian do you suppose that are lukewarm today? Going to church on Sundays, singing, listening to their lukewarm pastor read from the bible... going home thinking they know what faith is when they don't? To them Jesus is an add-on/accent for their life. A giant genie that when you rub a few favorable verses in the bible you are supposed to get what you want... fulfilled dreams, job promotions, happiness, peace, and plenty of financial blessings. Don't you know the desperation there is right now to teach them to repent? I care too much for people to sit here in this discussion and debate theology...

[Spirit_Tracker]

Last but not least, from what I have learned in scripture there is a difference between "works" under the law and "works of the spirit"... massive difference. One is a self-righteousness (law) and the other is the fruit of the spirit.

So did Jesus pay for ALL sins past, present and future? Yes this is God's sacrificial offering to mankind... but it is by faith that you receive this gift and believe. We need to Examine our faith continually because there has to be evidence that Christ's gift is manifested in our lives... putting away the things of the flesh and walking in the spirit... the abandonment of self righteousness and walking under the grace of what He did for us. And finally, we must remain in Him until then end and not grow weary and fall away, falling into the temptation once again to return to our former state. The faith that we have when we come to Jesus is a seed... it's freely given, but when we receive this seed, we must plant it deep in our hearts.. at first a professing/acknowledgement Him in our life, which must be nurtured by having faith in what He did. For this offering to be completed, we must remain in Him unto death. Doesn't mean we'll be perfect... God's grace accounts for bumps in the road... and accounts for our sinful weaknesses. We must continually examine our walk with Him, confessing our sin that we may be forgiven and turn from them so that His joy may be complete in us.

In my conviction, unless our faith is evident by walking in the spirit and remaining in Him, the sacrificial offering of past, present and future sin being offered is made void to those who's seed withers away from life's lusts. The offering is void to those who die in their lukewarm faith... However, while you still breath there is time to repent, lest He come like a thief and require your life. I've never heard of God not willing to receive back the sinning believer while we still live.

Jesus said, "Your sins be forgiven you, no go and sin no more".

God is Sovereign.

Blessings, Bro Randy.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Spirit_Tracker

[Mcgyver]

I'd like to bring up a couple of things as food for thought...

The scripture teaches that when we were born again, we were literally "purchased" by the blood of Christ on the cross.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 says: Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s. (emphasis mine).

1 Corinthians 7:22-24 reiterates this thought: For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord’s freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ’s slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. Brethren, let each one remain with God in that state in which he was called. (emphasis mine).

Again, the Apostles in the scripture refer to themselves as "doulos" translated variously as "slave", "bondslave", "bondservant", etc. There are several words for "slave" in Greek...and I find it very telling that the word they use (doulos) is that most abject form of slavery wherein one's own will is overshadowed by the will of the master.

In the Old Testament we see the "bondslave". In Exodus 21:5-7 and Deuteronomy 15:16-18 we see the law of the bondservant...that once one made the decision to become a bondservant and have his ear pierced by the awl...he became a slave forever to his master...he could never walk away nor be sold.

If we accept that the OT foreshadows the NT, then I propose that when we bowed our knee at the foot of the cross and were born-again as children of God, that we had "our ears pierced by the awl" and became His forever.

Even the word "Christian" rightly translated means "slave of Christ".

So then, tying this all together the question(s) would be:

At what point do we as Christians out sin God's ability to forgive? At what point does Grace no longer abound?

At what point does God, having purchased us with such a terrible price, sell us back to Satan?

Edited February 21, 2013 by Mcgyver

[Mcgyver]

I'd also like to address Hebrews 6, as this is (obviously) a bone of contention among Christians.

A couple of quick points here:

First is that this book is written in what is known as a "form of Rabbinical" argument, which uses comparison, contrast, typology, scripture, etc., to define and prove a point. That Hebrews was written by a trained rabbinical scholar I think is evident by both the style as well as the address. This was not written to the Hellenistic Jews (who had adopted Greek culture and Greek "philosophical" argument) but to the "Hebrews"...the Hebrew speaking Jews who had not accepted Greek thought form or style.

I need to emphasize here that the Form of Rabbinical Argument is simply a style used in Jewish theological writings...a style familiar to the Jews.

For further explanation, I would suggest googling the words: kal vachomer (or qal va-chomer) and argumentum a fortiori for a deeper study.

Having said all that, I think that to properly contextualize Hebrews 6, that we need to go back to Hebrews 3 and (ignoring chapter and verse divisions) read straight through to Hebrews 7.

To me at least...it sheds a whole different light upon what the author is trying to say...

[AlexanderJ]

I agree, Hebrews 6 definitely deserves close attention. If the author of Hebrews is indeed propounding that eternal salvation can be lost, the situation is even more serious than many realize.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I have met many Christians who believe that eternal salvation can be lost; however, I have met very few that believe that salvation, once lost, cannot be regained again. However, (if the author is propounding that eternal salvation can be lost) this is exactly what is asserted in Hebrews, "It is impossible....to renew them again unto repentance".

Following this line, it can be deduced that a believer, take King David, for instance, is sizziling in Hell as we speak. He denied his Lord by his evil works I.e. murdering Uriah and stealing his wife -- and not only this, he lived in a state of unrepented sin for almost a whole year. How can this be, when it is taken into account that David is called, later in the Bible, a "man after God's own heart"? A man after God's own heart that is damned? The thought (for me) is almost inconceivable.

Of course, I don't believe that the previous interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6 is the correct one. The author of Hebrews is not speaking of a person who has lost their eternal salvation; simply of one who has lost the ability to repent. This is corroborated elsewhere in Scripture. Paul spoke of some believers whose sin was so grave that the church should:

...deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5:5

Note that he says "that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus"; the person lost his/her life, not eternal salvation.

[Spirit_Tracker]

AlexanderJ... it's possible that the Hebrews 6: people, those have departed the faith, can come back to God, but the repentance they confessed when they first believed can not be renewed (Heb 10:26 If go on willing sinning, after coming to the Knowledge of Truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins). That only happens once... "the big one"... that washes away all previously committed sins all the way back to birth, remembered or not by you, ... but I think we're getting to technical... I agree that it's possible to for them to return... I know first hand that it is possible. However, it is not a idea path and you could still die in that state... we don't know when our souls are required of us. I believe it's God who ultimately Judges each person according to His Will and if He pardons someone then it is His Sovereign Justice that does so. However, if He does not, then it is His Sovereign Justice that does so. Either way, I think we all agree why put ourselves in a position where our walk is that uncertain? Why rebel to the point that God's grace is mocked? All things are possible with God... including spitting out those who thought themselves His His children. Why get technical and say "well technically they were never really His children then"... what matters is that there are millions of Christians who believe themselves to be covered under the promise who have the threat of being spit out. All because they thought they understood what "believe" and "faith" means.

I think we've covered a lot of details in the last couple of pages that aren't so theology driven. We've shared verses and shared our hearts... I hope there is enough conviction, for those who would read, to at least not get a false since of security in man-made theology. And that that they would open their bibles and read everything... not just the happy feel good verses that their pastor use but all of God's Word.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Spirit_Tracker