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carlos123

Is a disciple a Christian and a Christian a disciple?

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Philippians 3:8 NASB

More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith ...

We cannot gain Christ if we are not willing to surrender all to God by faith in Jesus and to consider everything apart from Christ as being mere rubbish. The righteousness that comes to us by faith in the cross is intimately tied to a complete trust of God as God in Christ. To letting Him have His rightful place in our lives and acting accordingly in line with whatever He values and whatever He wills for us.

Luke 14:25 NASB

Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. ... So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

“Therefore, salt is good; but if even salt has become tasteless, with what will it be seasoned? It is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Jesus was speaking to the crowds in these verses. Telling unbelievers about the cost of becoming his disciple. As I have pointed out in this thread and as the bible makes crystal clear there was no such thing as a Christian when the church began. They were all disciples. And disciples is what people became who trusted in Christ or in the Gospel message.

Jesus was essentially telling people what Paul said about considering everything rubbish compared to Christ. That one must be wiling to give it all up to follow Jesus as the Christ. To trust Him as God and as Savior.

Carlos

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A few other thoughts that came to me as I pondered this issue some more tonight...

When we trust in God through the Gospel who are we trusting in?

GOD!

And who is God? Supreme Being. All authority. Ultimate Ruler over all the affairs of man. The beginning and the end.

Call Him whatever you like (as long as it is truthful of who He is) and one is incapable of describing Him in terms that make Him out to be less than the best and the greatest of all.

Now describe man. Sinful. Self-centered. Corrupt. Evil. Made in the image of God (but less than God is). Describe man in whatever terms you like (as long as you describe him accurately) and he is less than God.

Man comes to God by faith. He comes to the being who is Supreme over all. Who deserves to be revered and worshiped as such.

How can anyone say that coming to GOD by faith entails anything less than an acknowledgment of who He is??

As GOD!

He is God we are not. You do not come to God while reserving anything for yourself. Not if you are going to come to Him while recognizing who He is. He fills all and is all and there is none beside Him. He will not share His glory with another. No other being can stand alongside of Him without bowing down to Him as God. A being of magnificent splendor and awe inspiring glory.

And we are supposed to believe that an unbeliever, a rebel in heart who has exalted himself above God for all his life up to the point of hearing the Gospel, can come to God for forgiveness without acknowledging who God is? Without bending their will to that of God? Without an admission that they have offended a thrice holy being by their sins and that they deserve nothing from God but to be cast into hell?

We come to God through the Gospel bankrupt and in need of salvation. We do not come to Him in continued rebellion. Not if we are going to acknowledge and respect Him as God!

The very definition of who God is in the totality of His magnificent being should cause us to realize that one cannot come to God through the Gospel without a surrendered heart. That a surrendered heart is the only proper response in the presence of God!

Faith in GOD for anything, including faith to believe that He sent His one and only Son to die for our sins, rests with who God is. If God is not God He is not trustworthy. If God is who we say we believe Him to be through the Gospel then He is worthy of our complete trust.

Which is the greatest commandment? Jesus said it was the following.

Matthew 22:36 NASB

YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ This is the great and foremost commandment.

ALL means ALL!

There is NO room for anything less than ALL when coming to God as God.

God requires complete surrender to Himself as God through the Gospel. It is the only proper response to who He is in Christ.

Anything less than that makes a mockery of who God is.

A faith that is less than a complete surrender to God as God is not a faith in who God is. It is a faith in God for something perhaps but it is not a faith IN the person of who GOD is.

ALL of God for ALL of us.

That's the deal. That is the exchange that happens through the cross. We lay down ourselves and God births a new self inside of us.

Anything less than that diminishes who God is. It robs Him of the glory due His name. It cheapens the Gospel and the all out sacrifice that Jesus made on our behalf.

Carlos

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We cannot gain Christ if we are not willing to surrender all to God by faith in Jesus and to consider everything apart from Christ as being mere rubbish. The righteousness that comes to us by faith in the cross is intimately tied to a complete trust of God as God in Christ. To letting Him have His rightful place in our lives and acting accordingly in line with whatever He values and whatever He wills for us.

Carlos, this is just horrible, horrible exegesis of the text. You are now attempting to place Philippians 3:8 on the sinner before he can be saved? Brother, are you kidding me? There are seasoned believers who have not come to the scope of this incredible passage. This passage is for those who ARE saved only, it is not a prerequisite to BE saved. Paul is here talking about Christian maturity, not initial salvation. A believer is to grow, and push on to maturity.

Php 3:13 Brothers and sisters, I know that I still have a long way to go. But there is one thing I do: I forget what is in the past and try as hard as I can to reach the goal before me.

Php 3:14 I keep running hard toward the finish line to get the prize that is mine because God has called me through Christ Jesus to life up there in heaven.

Php 3:15 All of us who have grown to be spiritually mature should think this way too. And if there is any of this that you don't agree with, God will make it clear to you.

Jesus was speaking to the crowds in these verses. Telling unbelievers about the cost of becoming his disciple. As I have pointed out in this thread and as the bible makes crystal clear there was no such thing as a Christian when the church began. They were all disciples. And disciples is what people became who trusted in Christ or in the Gospel message.

Let's take your "eisogesis" of the text to it's logical conclusion, if you do not give up all of your possessions here on earth, you cannot be saved (vs 33). If you do not hate your mother or father+believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you cannot be saved. You are attempting to twist discipleship, and works with salvation. Scripture knows no such thing (at least to the person who seeks to rightly handle the word), salvation is not in view here. We know this by our Lord's own words concerning salvation

Mat 11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Mat 11:29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

Mat 11:30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Salvation is a present possession that is not contingent on our good discipleship. Eternal life is a present possession upon belief on Christ. Nothing else. Our Lord is dealing with the suffering that comes along WITH our salvation in those passages. He is speaking matter of factly. It is not only given (or granted) unto us to believe on the Lord Jesus (to be saved), but it is also granted unto us to suffer for his sake.

Php 1:29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

Heb 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

Heb 13:13 So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach.

Heb 13:14 For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is to come.

You are committing a very critical error in trying to teach this kind of doctrine, Carlos. Have you sat down with your Pastor and told him this? You are trying to make discipleship salvific when it is not. It is a fruit of salvation. We are not only disciples, we are soldiers, we are stewards, we are slaves to Christ, but all of these things are BECAUSE we are saved, not prerequisites. I can almost guarantee your pastor does not teach this if he is a fundamental, Orthodox, Christian. Your presentation of this has to almost be considered a hyper version of Lordship salvation.

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Not just directed at Carlos, but anybody. A good rule of thumb to know you are heading or teaching in the wrong direction is to tell someone how they CANNOT be saved. It is the same leaven that has been used to water down the power of the pure Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. hen we place our own little rules, and dogmas along side the Gospel, we are presenting another Gospel. One that has no power to change a man, and one that will have a man standing before Christ pleading his own works, and him hearing the terrible words "depart form me, I never knew you".

1Co 15:1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,

1Co 15:2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

1Co 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

1Co 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Gal 1:4 who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

Gal 1:5 to whom be the glory forevermore. Amen.

Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;

Gal 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

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I tried, I really did. I did not want to post so much in this thread anymore but it's like fire shut up in my bones. lol I'm serious, I cannot refrain from answering this kind of teaching because it is vitally important. Souls rest on the right teachings of the Gospel. I apologize for the triple posts, and mods can delete or correct me for doing so, but I must stand for God's word, especially in something this important.

Carlos, when Paul says that he may "win Christ", he is not talking about in salvation. He is talking about a mindset that every believer should have. The key to understanding the context of what he is talking about is found in Phiippians 2:5. Having the same mind set as Christ. Though he was God, equal with the Father, he humbled himself and became a servant. He did not exercise his right as God, he did not rest on those laurels, he went to work, he sacrificed everything. Paul is saying the same thing to those who are already saved. Don't rest on your laurels because God has saved you by grace. Yes, you now have a perfect standing in Christ, but now make yourselves his slave, act as though you are in a race and run to win the top prize in Christ. Work out the salvation that God has already placed within. Even though you are saved (Just as Christ knew he was God), you act just like you are running to win Christ. You give the best you have to please him in all things even if that means losing everything you have in this life.

Php 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

Php 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Php 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Php 2:8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Compare to:

Php 3:13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,

Php 3:14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

No man can even dream of doing this outside of being born again. One becomes born again by accepting the precious words of God concerning his Son. Not accepting the words "drop known rebellion and sin", but accepting the words:

Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

1Jn 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Edited by saved34

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Hi Saved,

By the way I have no problem with you posting a bunch of different posts if no one else does.

We cannot gain Christ if we are not willing to surrender all to God by faith in Jesus and to consider everything apart from Christ as being mere rubbish. The righteousness that comes to us by faith in the cross is intimately tied to a complete trust of God as God in Christ. To letting Him have His rightful place in our lives and acting accordingly in line with whatever He values and whatever He wills for us.

Carlos, this is just horrible, horrible exegesis of the text. You are now attempting to place Philippians 3:8 on the sinner before he can be saved? Brother, are you kidding me? There are seasoned believers who have not come to the scope of this incredible passage. This passage is for those who ARE saved only, it is not a prerequisite to BE saved. Paul is here talking about Christian maturity, not initial salvation. A believer is to grow, and push on to maturity.

A rhetorical question no doubt as to whether I am kidding or not but...well...no I am not kidding.

You say that the passage in question is for believers. That it describes Christian maturity and is not a picture of what happens at salvation. That I am taking it out of context and so forth.

Yet in reading the verses again I am struck by the obvious connection Paul makes between considering everything rubbish that he may gain Christ and being found in Him as having a righteousness not of his own but that which is found by faith in the cross.

Please read the verses again Saved. Without bias one way or another. Note the parts I bolded and underlined.

Philippians 3:7

But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Any objective reading of this text cannot but help see the connection between counting all things as rubbish SO THAT one may gain Christ AND be found in Him having a righteousness by faith.

I do not call that horrible exegesis Saved. I call that child like reading and comprehension of the text without bias and without superimposing on it what may be an acceptable dogma of Christiandom today.

Certainly Paul talks of running the race toward maturity in other verses in this chapter but I do not think the above is talking about maturity AT ALL! At least not by an impartial reading of the text as written in the plain meaning of what is said.

Jesus was speaking to the crowds in these verses. Telling unbelievers about the cost of becoming his disciple. As I have pointed out in this thread and as the bible makes crystal clear there was no such thing as a Christian when the church began. They were all disciples. And disciples is what people became who trusted in Christ or in the Gospel message.

Let's take your "eisogesis" of the text to it's logical conclusion, if you do not give up all of your possessions here on earth, you cannot be saved (vs 33). If you do not hate your mother or father+believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, you cannot be saved. You are attempting to twist discipleship, and works with salvation. Scripture knows no such thing (at least to the person who seeks to rightly handle the word), salvation is not in view here. We know this by our Lord's own words concerning salvation

I am not attempting to twist anything Saved. I am reading what is said and taking it in the plain meaning of the words used in the context in which Jesus spoke. He WAS speaking to the masses. That IS the context.

And his call to follow Him was to anyone who was willing to trust Him to be who He said He was.

This is not about works vs faith. It is about trusting God to be God in Christ and following Him as such.

Salvation is a present possession that is not contingent on our good discipleship.

I have never said and say, most emphatically, now that salvation is NOT dependent on good discipleship. The quality of anyone's discipleship will come and go like that of the New Testament disciples themselves.

But to believe in Christ involved (and involves) trusting in who He said He was and orienting our lives around the doing of His will. Obeying His commandments as an expression of love for Him and being his disciples.

I am not making that up. It is what Jesus said.

John 14:23 NASB

“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.

Again if you have a problem with that your problem is with what the Word says. For that IS what it says.

Eternal life is a present possession upon belief on Christ. Nothing else. Our Lord is dealing with the suffering that comes along WITH our salvation in those passages.

He is doing NO such thing Saved. THAT is indeed poor exegesis in that nothing in the passage warrants such a conclusion. He was speaking to the masses about what it meant to trust Him as Savior and Messiah and what following Him as such entailed.

The idea that He was speaking about the suffering that comes along WITH salvation is nothing less than a superimposition on the text.

You are committing a very critical error in trying to teach this kind of doctrine, Carlos. Have you sat down with your Pastor and told him this? You are trying to make discipleship salvific when it is not. It is a fruit of salvation. We are not only disciples, we are soldiers, we are stewards, we are slaves to Christ, but all of these things are BECAUSE we are saved, not prerequisites. I can almost guarantee your pastor does not teach this if he is a fundamental, Orthodox, Christian. Your presentation of this has to almost be considered a hyper version of Lordship salvation.

I have no clue what sitting down with a pastor has to do with any of this. I mean it doesn't matter in one sense what any pastor thinks about these things. What matters is what the Word says! Period.

The problem, in the Western church especially, is that we have cast ourselves lose from what is written and have gone off to encamp around a thousand and one church traditions that the Word does not support.

It's as if you are expecting me to abide by what you consider to be fundamental, Orthodox, Christian belief because...well...because a Pastor, even a Pastor in any church I may be a part of, might also believe it.

That is PRECISELY the kind of thinking that led the Catholic Church to exert such an influence over people until the Reformation came along and helped to steer things back in the right direction. Where we are ALL responsible and capable before God through His Spirit to read the Word, seek the Lord, and determine what His will is.

I am NOT saying that we are to seek the Lord in isolation and obstinately refuse any correction from anyone anywhere. I don't operate that way Saved. If you have followed what I have posted for very long I am most certainly open to correction and to humbling myself publicly. God is opposed to the proud and gives grace to the humble. I do not wish for one second to be on the end of His opposition. I would rather err on the side of humbling myself to admit error than stubbornly refuse to admit that if indeed I am in error.

I mean to be in error about what I am saying is a most hideous thing Saved. A damnable thing if there ever was one. It is to potentially lead others astray and lead them down a path that does not take them to the salvation we all want and which God provides for through the Gospel.

But to not say what I have said is equally wrong Saved. For I would be giving out false comfort of being saved to people that have not surrendered their lives to God as God through the Gospel. I would be a part of the problem as to why the church of today has lost it's saltiness and why it is so full of people who are walking after their own desires and not God's.

I can't do that.

The Word says what it says and I chose to abide by what is written if I am the only one in existence that says it! I don't care what the consequences are or who says otherwise.

Again that is NOT to say that I am not open to correction. By all means if I am taking a verse out of context explain to me that error. To date you have not shown me one verse that I have taken out of context Saved. I mean you claim so in regard to the various verses I share and my explanation of what they say. But you do not show me word by word why the verses that I say things about do not in fact say what I say they say.

Show me Saved. Word by word. Explain to me why a verse does not say what I say it says. Don't just tell me that I have bad exegesis or that this or that verse actually means this or that other thing than I say it does because of this or that context that goes against the very words used and the context in which they are said. Show me! Get down in the nitty gritty of the words used and show me where my understanding of the words in a verse are off. Show me why "so that" and "and" in the one verse above for example do not in fact mean "so that" and "and" in the commonly understood definition of these conjunctions.

Explain it to me. Don't expect me to agree to your interpretation just because you say the general context does not warrant my conclusions. The context itself has to be accurate. The setting for what Jesus said must be accepted as the setting that the Word says it was. Don't tell me that Jesus was speaking of the suffering of following Him after the point of salvation when in fact He was talking to the masses! Don't make up stuff. Don't discount what is there before our very eyes because of a different doctrinal understanding that comes from a variety of other verses.

I am all for taking other verses into account Saved but not to the extent that we end up ignoring what is written in one set of verses in favor of our doctrinal understanding derived from other verses. That's called interpretation by extrapolation and deduction. Not interpretation by what is written.

Carlos

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I tried, I really did. I did not want to post so much in this thread anymore but it's like fire shut up in my bones. lol I'm serious, I cannot refrain from answering this kind of teaching because it is vitally important. Souls rest on the right teachings of the Gospel. I apologize for the triple posts, and mods can delete or correct me for doing so, but I must stand for God's word, especially in something this important.

No need to apologize for what you consider to be excessive posting (which I do not consider so by the way). Post away all that you feel you must post Saved.

I may or not respond directly to what you post.

In the final analysis everyone must carefully read the verses being talked about and make up their own minds about this issue in the presence of God.

Carlos

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As I read the Word some this morning and sought the Lord on some of this I was particularly struck by various verses that supported even more what I am saying about all this. That faith in God through the Gospel involves a complete surrender to Him as God from the heart if such a faith is to be saving faith and not just mere intellectual assent.

Read the following verses very carefully...

Luke 18:18 NASB

A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. You know the commandments, ‘DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.’” And he said, “All these things I have kept from my youth.” When Jesus heard this, He said to him, “One thing you still lack; sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. And Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” They who heard it said, “Then who can be saved?” But He said, “The things that are impossible with people are possible with God.”

Peter said, “Behold, we have left our own homes and followed You.” And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.

Now let me if I may point out a simple truth here. I don't care what theological take you have on how to be saved. Don't superimpose on these verses and ignore what they actually say.

What did Jesus actually say to the man who asked Him how to get saved?

He said two things to him in response. One...keep the commandments. Two...sell all that you possess, distribute it to the poor, and come, follow Me.

THAT IS what Jesus said in response to the question!! If anyone thinks otherwise may I say that they do not know how to read the English language or something.

Now I am not saying in pointing this out that I do not believe in salvation by faith and so forth. Not at all!

But I AM interested in knowing WHY Jesus said these things to a man who wanted to know how to be saved and how that might fit in with the truth that salvation is by faith in who Christ is and the work He came to do in dying on the cross for us. Aren't you interested in that too?

Here was a man, a ruler, whose external and visible life was conformed to the righteousness as defined by the ten commandments. A pretty good fellow if you ask me, at least outwardly.

However, outward conformity to the letter of the law in the ten commandments, was not enough to be saved. If it was, Jesus would have stopped right there and assured the fellow that he would be saved based on his outward conformity to the ten commandments.

But Jesus saw something else in this man (and here I am extrapolating a bit but I think my extrapolation of WHY Jesus said what He said next is at least biblically plausible). Jesus saw idolatry. In that this man was so in love with his riches that he had placed his riches above God as a matter of greater importance than God in his life.

This fellow did not trust God as God. He trusted in his riches. He had no faith in God to be his provision either for salvation or for his less important but definite wordly needs. He saw himself as good based on outward conformity to the ten commandments and not desperately in need of salvation. Yet he also wanted to be sure of his salvation or he would not have come to Jesus with the question he asked.

Jesus put His finger so to speak on the lack of faith this man had by asking him to do something in line with faith in God to provide for his need of being saved just as he might walk by faith in God to provide for needs that his money was presently taking care of.

Carefully read that last sentence again.

Faith in God for salvation, according to what Jesus told this ruler, is the kind of faith that one also must practice in God to provide for anything else. Faith is faith.

To trust God partially is not faith in God! It is an insult to God!

We may well trust someone on earth partially. Take for example trusting someone to be on time for appointments but not to exercise self-control in eating. If someone is on time for appointments we can well trust them to be on time. They have proven themselves to be trustworthy of being so and subsequently we trust them for that. But they may well have proven themselves gluttonous when eating with them in the past and so we do not trust them to be anything other than gluttonous in the future (barring a change in behaviour of course).

What I am saying is that we can well trust people to varying degrees depending on whether or not they have proven themselves trustworthy in various areas.

But with God it is different! God is perfect. Perfectly trustworthy. We either trust Him as such in the totality of His being or we do not trust Him as God! Of being God and of having the perfect characteristics of God as God. Because of who God is and of His perfect trustworthiness in all things we either trust God explicitly and completely or we do not. There are no half measures with respect to trusting God! It's either all or nothing.

To trust God in one thing is to trust Him in all for the very reasons that make Him trustworthy in one thing make Him as God trustworthy in all.

When Jesus told this ruler that he lacked one thing and asked him to give up all he possessed He was putting His finger on something that would have demonstrated faith in God by this ruler had he obeyed what Jesus asked Him to do.

But this ruler was not willing to exercise such faith in God. Instead he chose to hang on to what he was trusting in. His riches.

This ruler was NOT willing to embark on a life of faith with God and instead wanted to live by faith in what he possessed as more worthy of being trusted than God! He was living in idolatry. Idolatry being defined as putting something in the place of God. Giving something the place rightly reserved for God in one's life.

This ruler needed to exercise FAITH! Faith in God!

Jesus was simply telling him to exercise faith through something that would have required faith for him to do!

Note what Peter said in response and Jesus words afterwards.

The disciples of Jesus had exercised that faith in Christ already and Jesus reassured Peter that anyone who had yielded to God as God and had surrendered their all to Him would receive from God directly all that he had previously relied on (but gave up to follow Christ) and that might be needed and that their faith in Him would be rewarded with eternal life.

I am not making this stuff up! THAT IS what Jesus said! If you don't believe me read it again!

I say again that faith in God is NOT some mamby pamby feel good sinner's prayer said for the purpose of getting God to bless us as we seek to accumulate more good things for ourselves through the Gospel. It is an all out surrender to God as God through the Gospel where we lay everything and I mean EVERYTHING at His feet and rise up to trust Him with our very lives as we seek to do His will.

Anything less than that is an insult to God and makes a mockery of who He is!

Carlos

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We cannot gain Christ if we are not willing to surrender all to God by faith in Jesus and to consider everything apart from Christ as being mere rubbish. The righteousness that comes to us by faith in the cross is intimately tied to a complete trust of God as God in Christ. To letting Him have His rightful place in our lives and acting accordingly in line with whatever He values and whatever He wills for us

Carlos, the "rubbish' that Paul is talking about is his religious works before coming to Christ. Let's look up(literally go back up a few verses) a few verses to get the true context of what he is saying, not just isolating a single verse to make it say what we want it to say.

Php 3:2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;

Php 3:3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

Php 3:4 although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:

Php 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

Php 3:6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Php 3:7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.

Notice he says we(believers) have zero confidence in the flesh. He goes on to name all the high positions and religious works he had done, and says he counts them but junk in light of being Justified by faith in Christ. In essence, he is talking in the exact opposite of what you are trying to present here. Now read the following verses carefully, then tie them in to the verse that you are promoting as some kind of prerequisite for salvation.

Php 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;

Php 3:6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Php 3:7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.

Verse 9 clarifies what he is saying. "Not having a righteousness of my own". It would be contradictory if your interpretation of the passage was correct. He would in essence be saying, he has to do Good works so that he can have a righteousness by faith. That is not what he is saying at all. He is actually relinquishing any confidence in the flesh and trusting Christ as any man who is ever saved has done, through faith.

Php 3:9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Jesus was speaking to the crowds in these verses. Telling unbelievers about the cost of becoming his disciple. As I have pointed out in this thread and as the bible makes crystal clear there was no such thing as a Christian when the church began. They were all disciples. And disciples is what people became who trusted in Christ or in the Gospel message.

And I clearly showed you that this is in respects to the suffering for the sake of Christ that all believers will do. It is actually ordained of God that we do so. Christ is not teaching salvation at all in these passages, for salvation is never taught this way, either by the Lord himself, or any that followed him. I really wish you would have read the verses I gave to back up my statements concerning this. Yes he was speaking to the crowds, but he is not telling them about salvation, these people were following him, and he started to teach them what it meant to actually follow him in reality.

A man that comes to Christ in salvation does not know enough to count everything rubbish, not knowing how long you have been saved, even you do not know the full extent of that. That is something one grows into, and matures into as Paul himself was careful to say. That is in reality a never ending endeavor until the day the Lord takes us home.

Php 3:12 I don't mean that I am exactly what God wants me to be. I have not yet reached that goal. But I continue trying to reach it and make it mine. That's what Christ Jesus wants me to do. It is the reason he made me his.

Php 3:13 Brothers and sisters, I know that I still have a long way to go. But there is one thing I do: I forget what is in the past and try as hard as I can to reach the goal before me.

Php 3:14 I keep running hard toward the finish line to get the prize that is mine because God has called me through Christ Jesus to life up there in heaven.

Paul may have been one of the greatest saints who ever lived, and he said "I have a long way to go in achieving this goal". To place this on the sinner when he first comes to Christ is not only error, it could be fatal as you are placing a yoke on a man who cannot hope to do this.

That one must be wiling to give it all up to follow Jesus as the Christ. To trust Him as God and as Savior.

And what happens if one doesn't not "give it all up"? Let me make sure I am understanding your position perfect. A man hears the Gospel, he then must weigh out whether he wants to give up "all" up to follow Christ? When you say all, what exactly does that entail? If he gives up all, what happens if he slips up and falls back into some of the things that are included in the "all" things he has to give up in order to be saved? I am curious as to what you think the Gospel is, Carlos. If you know what the Gospel is, how can you justify adding such a yoke on an unbeliever BEFORE he can be saved? How is ot any different than the Judaizers saying unless you are circumcised, you cannot be saved? You are saying, unless you give up everything, you cannot be saved. The Gospel is never presented this way.

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I have been reading this thread and I wasn't going to post anything as I am not a debater so have trouble putting my thoughts down in type. I do have to answer now though.

Carlos if we have to be saved how you say we do then I, for one, would never have been saved. I come from a family that are all very strict atheists. If anyone brought anything to do with christianity into the house it was got rid of as soon as possible - without the owner knowing what had happened. I was taught the bible was a book constructed about 400-500 years ago by a bunch of men that wanted to gain power. I was taught that christianity was for the weak and retarded. I was taught that they only want your money and that is all it was about. Because I had been indoctrinated into an atheist belief I never bothered checking it out as I believed from when I was little that what I was taught was true. I was taught a lot of other things that were untrue about christianity to but believed them as I was deceived and blinded. When you're like that you really can't see the truth very easily and you are also in strong denial about the truth. The ONLY reason I became a believer is because someone told me, when I was 15, about hell and I didn't want to go there so I told God "if you are real I accept you so I don't go to hell". I did it for "fire insurance" - nothing more. I didn't know anything about how to follow God. Heck I didn't even know I was in rebellion so that I could give up my rebellion.

According to what you have posted we have to give up rebellion first before coming to God so me not knowing I was in it counted me out for salvation there and then. How can you give up something you never knew you had? The simple answer is that you can't. I never even read my bible until at least five years later as I didn't know we needed to. I didn't trust any believer or church due to what I had been taught growing up so they couldn't help me either. But, miracle of miracles, God accepted my confession of faith - weak as it was. God began a time of teaching me and growing me till I came to know that I was in rebellion and could give up the rebellion I had learned about. This teaching took 5 years so for 5 years I was still in rebellion but God accepted me anyway and taught me and grew me anyway. God accepted me EVEN with the rebellion still in me so I know He will accept others the same way.

Sorry for rambling on a bit but this proved to me that God accepts us as we are then proceeds to grow and mature us just as the bible says.

Edited by Nyoka

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