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carlos123

Is a disciple a Christian and a Christian a disciple?

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I have been reading this thread and I wasn't going to post anything as I am not a debater so have trouble putting my thoughts down in type. I do have to answer now though.

Carlos if we have to be saved how you say we do then I, for one, would never have been saved. I come from a family that are all very strict atheists. If anyone brought anything to do with christianity into the house it was got rid of as soon as possible - without the owner knowing what had happened. I was taught the bible was a book constructed about 400-500 years ago by a bunch of men that wanted to gain power. I was taught that christianity was for the weak and retarded. I was taught that they only want your money and that is all it was about. Because I had been indoctrinated into an atheist belief I never bothered checking it out as I believed from when I was little that what I was taught was true. I was taught a lot of other things that were untrue about christianity to but believed them as I was deceived and blinded. When you're like that you really can't see the truth very easily and you are also in strong denial about the truth. The ONLY reason I became a believer is because someone told me, when I was 15, about hell and I didn't want to go there so I told God "if you are real I accept you so I don't go to hell". I did it for "fire insurance" - nothing more. I didn't know anything about how to follow God. Heck I didn't even know I was in rebellion so that I could give up my rebellion.

According to what you have posted we have to give up rebellion first before coming to God so me not knowing I was in it counted me out for salvation there and then. How can you give up something you never knew you had? The simple answer is that you can't. I never even read my bible until at least five years later as I didn't know we needed to. I didn't trust any believer or church due to what I had been taught growing up so they couldn't help me either. But, miracle of miracles, God accepted my confession of faith - weak as it was. God began a time of teaching me and growing me till I came to know that I was in rebellion and could give up the rebellion I had learned about. This teaching took 5 years so for 5 years I was still in rebellion but God accepted me anyway and taught me and grew me anyway. God accepted me EVEN with the rebellion still in me so I know He will accept others the same way.

Sorry for rambling on a bit but this proved to me that God accepts us as we are then proceeds to grow and mature us just as the bible says.

Thank you for sharing with us Nyoka.

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And what happens if one doesn't not "give it all up"? Let me make sure I am understanding your position perfect. A man hears the Gospel, he then must weigh out whether he wants to give up "all" up to follow Christ? When you say all, what exactly does that entail? If he gives up all, what happens if he slips up and falls back into some of the things that are included in the "all" things he has to give up in order to be saved? I am curious as to what you think the Gospel is, Carlos. If you know what the Gospel is, how can you justify adding such a yoke on an unbeliever BEFORE he can be saved? How is ot any different than the Judaizers saying unless you are circumcised, you cannot be saved? You are saying, unless you give up everything, you cannot be saved. The Gospel is never presented this way.

Saved...you really perplex me. I mean why do you continue to put words in my mouth that I have never said?

I have never said that one must do something BEFORE they can get saved. I am saying that one must respond to God as God in the Gospel and take on a proper attitude toward God and His righteousness.

Surrendering all is taking a proper attitude toward God in that God is GOD such that anyone who comes to Him as God must surrender all as the logical response of encountering God!

I am NOT saying that one must be a perfect disciple. That one must do this or that anything. I am saying that one's heart attitude and response to God MUST be to trust Him as God with no reserve. Unconditionally. All out trust in God as God.

That IS what saving faith IS!

What is it about that that you don't seem to understand?

I mean in all honesty Saved it's like I am repeating these things to someone who simply doesn't see what I am saying at all and who keeps taking what I say as being a case where I am adding something to the Gospel.

How you can believe that faith in GOD is anything less than a willingness to love God with ALL your heart, ALL your mind, and ALL your soul is beyond me to comprehend.

When I say give up all I mean that a person MUST yield to God as God in every area of their life where they know that God is displeased with something. They must yield to Him as God and trust Him as God without hanging on to any area of selfishness or sin revealed to them as unpleasing to God by the Holy Spirit's conviction or their conscience.

It is a state of mind. A changed state of mind from being a rebel to trusting God as God and yielding to Him as such through the Gospel.

If a man surrenders all from the heart as a state of mind and trusts God through the Gospel and then sometime after conversion goes back to taking back some of his surrender that does not change the state of his salvation. He has been born again of God and has been justified and declared righteous by God through the blood of Jesus.

I am not adding a yoke on anyone other than saying that the Gospel is a message of reconciliation. A message by which we can be reconciled into a right relationship with God orienting ourselves around His will and His righteousness if we chose to believe the Gospel and accept God's offer of forgiveness. It's like you are completely missing the reconciliation aspect of the Gospel message or something Saved. What exactly do you see us being reconciled to? Would you have us believe that entering into a state of reconciliation with God through the Gospel entails no change to our rebellious behavior? That one can willy nilly go on sinning without a break through the Gospel and expect to be saved?

If that is not what you are saying then how exactly do you view reconciliation? I mean what does that word mean to you? What affect does reconciliation have? What is the state that unbelievers are in before reconciliation and what is the state they are in afterwards? Does that state change?

You claim that the Gospel is never presented this way. That's fine if you want to claim that but you have yet to go word by word regarding any verse to show me why any of what I have said is out of context or not in line with what is written with the exception that you did explain your thoughts a bit more on the Philippians verses which thoughts from you I will read more thoroughly in a minute.

The Judiazers by the way were saying that unless one performed a circumcision, an outward act (regardless of any underlying faith or not), one could not be saved. What outward act am I saying that needs to happen Saved? Quit putting words in my mouth or twisting the nature of what I am saying. I am talking about what happens in the heart! A surrender of the heart! A changed attitude of the heart! A perspective of the heart! Where in the world do you see me saying anything about an outward act in the sense that the Judaizers spoke of respecting circumcision?

Yes I have mentioned outward acts in my previous posts to be sure but what I said and said clearly is that what is needed is saving faith of a kind that results in outward works. You keep missing the faith part in what I post. Without faith it is absolutely impossible to please God! Can't be done. No matter what one does outwardly.

Why is it that you keep twisting what I am saying to mean something entirely different? That one must do an outward act to be saved other than have faith?

FAITH, FAITH, FAITH. In case you still don't get it. FAITH, FAITH, FAITH. It's all about FAITH. Read my last post about the rich young ruler. FAITH, FAITH, FAITH.

Saving faith but FAITH, FAITH, FAITH.

Genuine faith. Real faith. Faith in God. But FAITH, FAITH, FAITH. Quit twisting my words to be anything more or less than that.

Carlos

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Now let me if I may point out a simple truth here. I don't care what theological take you have on how to be saved. Don't superimpose on these verses and ignore what they actually say.

What did Jesus actually say to the man who asked Him how to get saved?

Let's look at this in context and not simply throwing a verse of scripture out there like some kind of spiritual gumbo. Let's rightly handle the word of truth.

First notice, that Jesus directed the ruler to the Law of Moses. As a teacher of the Law (before his crucifixion and ultimate redeeming of man from the Law) Christ's teachings were distinctly dispensational., meaning he taught the Law in truth. He is not here teaching this man about salvation by Grace through faith. He had yet to be the sin bearer of the world.

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,

Gal 4:5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

First question, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Christ then tells him no one is good (all have fallen short) except God. In other words, "are you acknowledging I am God, or are you simply saying I am a good teacher?" He then gives the law, the measuring stick that God uses to declare ALL men to be under sin and guilty

Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The proper response from the ruler would have been like that of the Publican, "lord be merciful to me the sinner", but the ruler justified himself in light of God's Holy law. "I have kept all these since I was a boy". Christ instantly responds just as the law responds to all men, "ONE THING THOU STILL LACK". In one instance our Lord exposed the sin of Idolatry in this man. He thought he kept the law and the Lord showed him he still lacked, he came up short.

Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."

Gal 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."

The account in Mark says Christ loved this man. This is not teaching how one can be saved, brother. This is showing that a man can never be justified by the law. To use this to teach someone how to be saved is not handling the word rightly.

He said two things to him in response. One...keep the commandments. Two...sell all that you possess, distribute it to the poor, and come, follow Me.

Keeping the Law will only land you in hell fire. It will never save you, and it was never intended to save. Knowing this, we should know that our Lord had a greater teaching in mind. Please read the provided verse I give carefully and prayerfully.

Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

This is why it is important to understand God's economies as we read the Gospels. This is a pre-crucified Christ teaching the law in it's purity. He instructed people during this time to make sacrifices (had he said, do not make sacrifices because I am the sacrifice from God, he would have been wrong. The dispensation was different as he walked the earth). I really hope I am not confusing you with this, but it is imperative to understand this if we are to fully grasp the Gospels, and the teachings of our Lord.

Now I am not saying in pointing this out that I do not believe in salvation by faith and so forth. Not at all!

Let's just call it like it is from this point forward brother. You are saying salvation by faith is not enough. You may not be maliciously doing this, but your teaching is clearly saying that faith is not enough (under the guise of giving up everything in order to be saved).

Here was a man, a ruler, whose external and visible life was conformed to the righteousness as defined by the ten commandments. A pretty good fellow if you ask me, at least outwardly.

No, here was a man who "thought" his life was conformed to righteousness, in reality there is none righteous but Christ, and it is his righteousness that God requires if a sinner is to be justified before him, and this can only be acquired by faith apart from works. He was doing nothing more than what the Pharisee did in thanking God for how righteous he was.

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;

Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

You see, all the ruler had to do was fall at the feet of Christ and say Lord please have mercy on me. (You cannot show me one single passage where Christ turned away such a plea). This man came in his own righteousness, and was met head on with the Holy Law of God that he can never get around. He will always lack something.

But Jesus saw something else in this man (and here I am extrapolating a bit but I think my extrapolation of WHY Jesus said what He said next is at least biblically plausible). Jesus saw idolatry

Amen Carlos. I had already responded in kind before I even read this part of your post. Agreed 100%. Had it not been riches it would have been something else, for the Law of God is spiritual, and it cuts right to the heart of all men and exposes sin. Adultery is in the heart, murder is in the heart, idolatry is in the heart. Man cannot escape this.

Jesus put His finger so to speak on the lack of faith this man had by asking him to do something in line with faith in God to provide for his need of being saved just as he might walk by faith in God to provide for needs that his money was presently taking care of.

No. Jesus showed him his sinful self in light of the law that he claimed to keep since he was a boy. No doubt this man had heard Christ teaching, but wanted reaffirmation that he was "good" or alright because he had a false sense of security in his own performance. The law in condemning him should have drove him in the arms of Christ, but he walked away in his own self righteousness like most religionist.

To trust God in one thing is to trust Him in all for the very reasons that make Him trustworthy in one thing make Him as God trustworthy in all.

I don't know if this is offensive (it most likely is) but how long have you been saved, brother? You sound like a new convert in a lot of the things you post. When you were first converted, you mean to tell me that you understood what it meant to trust God in "all"? When I got saved I was just like the Philippian Jailer, scared to death because for the first time I was confronted with my sins, and what it meant to trespass against God. I was literally trembling and wanted to know how to be saved, I got my answer in trusting in Christ. I knew nothing of selling out everything, or giving up anything. I didn't even know Christians were supposed to suffer. That was 20 years ago, and I learned these things. I grew in Grace and can now say I'm not the same young babe I was on the day God saved me.

I say all that to say, maybe you have a lot more living to do, brother. You sound like a very young convert. This teaching of yours has zeal, but it has the wrong delivery. I'm almost 100% certain that not one single believer has met the criteria that you are placing on salvation. After salvation, after the new birth, yes, but as a prerequisite for salvation, no.

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I have never said that one must do something BEFORE they can get saved. I am saying that one must respond to God as God in the Gospel and take on a proper attitude toward God and His righteousness.

Carlos, you have had more than a few fellow saints question your delivery. Maybe you need to stop using catch Phrases like "proper attitude", "expressions of faith" . "responding to God as God", as if they are contrary to simple belief on the Lord Jesus Christ. Exactly what do you mean by a person has to "sell out", or "give up everything' in order to be saved? I'm not crazy, I have a sound mind in Christ and I can read with a reasonable amount of comprehension. You are clearly adding works along side faith, but denying it all the while. Make it clear what you are really saying. Besides faith (since you say many are fake believers) what must one do in order to be genuine (in your own estimation) what exact performance, not a catch phrase, but what expression must one do. Give a clear cut example.

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Hi Nyoka,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'd like to respond to some of what you said if I could not to debate you (don't be concerned about that or in being perfect about sharing what is on your heart) but by way of clarifying what I am saying and how it might apply to your salvation.

Carlos if we have to be saved how you say we do then I, for one, would never have been saved. ... The ONLY reason I became a believer is because someone told me, when I was 15, about hell and I didn't want to go there so I told God "if you are real I accept you so I don't go to hell". I did it for "fire insurance" - nothing more. I didn't know anything about how to follow God. Heck I didn't even know I was in rebellion so that I could give up my rebellion.

First off Nyoka...what I have been saying is in line with what the Word says.

But surrendering to God as God presupposes that one surrenders to God in so far as they know God. Through the Gospel I mean.

If your knowledge of who God is in the totality of His being is deficient in some way that does not invalidate the need for you (or anyone) to surrender to Him within the understanding of who He is contained in the Gospel message. Assuming the Gospel message was presented to you accurately it would have included the following:

- that God hates sin

- that He will judge us for our sin and that we will be condemned to hell for our sins if we do not change (i.e. repent) from going our own way in life to trust Him through the Gospel to lead our lives.

- that Jesus was God in the flesh and that He came to die for our sins.

- that Jesus rose again and is Lord of both the living and dead.

- that God is calling us to be reconciled to Him through the Gospel and to enter into a right relationship to Him.

Accepting God, assuming you accepted Him with sufficient knowledge of who He really is through the Gospel to accept HIM and not some mystical spirit being who lives in a bush or otherwise, is an acceptance of Him as God Nyoka.

Fire insurance it may have been for you but you accepted Him on His terms did you not?

I mean you didn't make up the terms of how you could partake of that fire insurance did you?

His terms and His person is what you accepted in so far as you understood them.

According to what you have posted we have to give up rebellion first before coming to God so me not knowing I was in it counted me out for salvation there and then.

Giving up rebellion is a decision of the heart that lines up with who God is and who we are (i.e. rebels). It is a recognition of who we are as rebels and of the need to yield to God as God in our lives by faith in the Gospel. It is not a give up rebellion first and then get saved thing at all. Giving up rebellion is a proper response to God through the Gospel. It is an expression of genuine faith in God through the Gospel. It happens AT salvation. The change in attitude I mean.

It is not a before thing at all.

It is similar to what happens with us when we fall into some sin now as Christians. When we sin when are we restored into right fellowship with God now? When we repent right? When we change our attitude respecting our sin, confess it to God, and make a choice to walk righteously before Him again.

It is not a matter of walking righteously first before we are restored to right fellowship with God. It is a matter of restoring that fellowship BY changing our attitude and acting accordingly.

No different with salvation.

A change in attitude happens AT the point of salvation. NOT before.

The change in attitude expresses a choice to believe in God (act in faith) through the Gospel and act accordingly.

How can you give up something you never knew you had?

You may not have known how completely rebellious you were before a holy God at the point of salvation Nyoka but faith and rebellion do not mix! Either you did not become a Christian when you think you did (that's quite common I think) or else you yielded to God as God by faith in so far as you knew that He was displeased with various things in your life.

If you persisted in doing things that God was displeased with and that you knew that He was displeased with, without a break and without any repentance on your part, then you definitely did not become a Christian when you think you became one.

I never even read my bible until at least five years later as I didn't know we needed to.

Reading the bible is not necessary for salvation Nyoka. Neither is baptism or any other outward act.

Just because you may not have done any of this for some time does not mean that you did not in fact become a Christian. It is your ATTITUDE when you came to God that reveals more of whether you had saving faith or not. Not what you did outwardly.

As far as I can see from your description you yielded to God through the Gospel because you didn't want to go to hell. That's perfectly acceptable Nyoka even if you yielded to God for that reason. But you yielded to Him did you not?

I mean you accepted forgiveness on His terms did you not?

And as far as you knew what God wanted you to do you did it did you not? I mean you trusted God as God did you not?

Although I talk about a lot of things in my posts Nyoka the bottom line of what I am saying is that we must yield to God as God through the Gospel. Different people will have varying levels of understanding of who God is. They will not understand the depth of sin that lies in our sinful nature. They will not grasp the fullness of what Christ did even.

But to get saved they must know enough about God to yield to Him as God. They must know enough about who Christ is and what He did for them on the cross to entrust themselves to God through Jesus. They must be willing to change their attitude not only toward God but toward sin and commit themselves to live by His rule in their lives and not their own.

I didn't trust any believer or church due to what I had been taught growing up so they couldn't help me either. But, miracle of miracles, God accepted my confession of faith - weak as it was. God began a time of teaching me and growing me till I came to know that I was in rebellion and could give up the rebellion I had learned about. This teaching took 5 years so for 5 years I was still in rebellion but God accepted me anyway and taught me and grew me anyway. God accepted me EVEN with the rebellion still in me so I know He will accept others the same way.

DO NOT ASSUME that God accepts rebellion in anyone Nyoka! I am talking of known rebellion that we are aware of.

That there was rebellion still in you is a given based on what you share but as you yourself stated the rebellion that was in you was not even something you were aware of that you had.

In my posts I talk of known rebellion at the point of salvation and NOT the rebellion that still lies in all of us and whose presence God reveals to us as we continue maturing in Christ. I talk of an unbeliever who knows that they are doing something that displeases God. That something must be yielded to God from the heart or they cannot exercise faith. Genuine saving faith in God through the Gospel.

Incidentally I would also encourage you NOT to make the mistake that so many seem to make in thinking that God operates with everyone on the basis of what they think they have experienced. In other words truth about God and His ways is not properly derived by how we think God has dealt with us primarily but rather by what the Word says.

Sorry for rambling on a bit but this proved to me that God accepts us as we are then proceeds to grow and mature us just as the bible says.

Your experience alone does not make for proof of anything Nyoka. Respecting how God operates. God does indeed accept us as we are through Christ. Of that there can be no doubt not because it is true in your experience but because the Word says that is true. But that truth presumes an acceptance of God through the Gospel by genuine faith. God does not accept everyone unconditionally all over as if no one needs to exercise genuine faith in Him through the Gospel.

His acceptance is conditioned on trusting God in Christ.

Carlos

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I have never said that one must do something BEFORE they can get saved. I am saying that one must respond to God as God in the Gospel and take on a proper attitude toward God and His righteousness.

Carlos, you have had more than a few fellow saints question your delivery. Maybe you need to stop using catch Phrases like "proper attitude", "expressions of faith" . "responding to God as God", as if they are contrary to simple belief on the Lord Jesus Christ. Exactly what do you mean by a person has to "sell out", or "give up everything' in order to be saved? I'm not crazy, I have a sound mind in Christ and I can read with a reasonable amount of comprehension. You are clearly adding works along side faith, but denying it all the while. Make it clear what you are really saying. Besides faith (since you say many are fake believers) what must one do in order to be genuine (in your own estimation) what exact performance, not a catch phrase, but what expression must one do. Give a clear cut example.

Saved...I am not going to get into a round robin of trying to re-explain what I am saying to you over and over and over again. I have said enough in my posts to make it quite clear that I believe FAITH is all that is necessary for salvation. That I have been describing the nature of that faith. That it must be genuine and of a kind that responds to God as God through the Gospel. Giving Him his rightful place in our hearts as an expression of faith in Him.

No matter what I say you persist in stating that I am adding works to faith in the sense of me saying that we cannot be saved unless we do this or that work.

I have never said that. I do not now say that. And anyone who says such a thing is preaching a different Gospel.

But you won't believe me and are now telling me that I am denying the above (as if I have not even said it) by what I said.

You share what you believe about this and I will share what I believe about this and we can let everyone who reads our respective posts make up their own minds in the presence of God.

Carlos

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I have said enough in my posts to make it quite clear that I believe FAITH is all that is necessary for salvation. That I have been describing the nature of that faith. That it must be genuine and of a kind that responds to God as God through the Gospel. Giving Him his rightful place in our hearts as an expression of faith in Him.

Actually you haven't said enough in your posts, Carlos. You keep using these generic catch phrases and being very vague in what you are really trying to say. Your own words is faith must be "genuine" and of a "kind that responds to God". If you believe we are saved by faith apart from works, what does "a kind that responds to God" mean"? What would make faith genuine instead of spurious? This is very important since you insist I am falsely accusing you. I say one is saved by simply believing on the Lord Jesus Christ (On, not about) rolling your self on him, trusting him as your sin bearer and as the very gift offering from God himself. That is clear, that is my stance. You are saying there is more to it. You have even gone so far as to say one must give up "all" to be saved. (all of what, be specific) What more must be done? I don't think I'm being unreasonable in asking this question.

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Please don't patronise me Carlos. I didn't yield to God and you are totally ignoring that. I didn't have a moment that I said "okay God I know now that is rebellion I will give it up right this minute as right this minute I finally understood it". I said I never gave it up until five years later. For, at least, the last two years years, before I gave it up, I knew I was in rebellion and stubbornly would not give it up. God was even more stubborn and kept teaching me until I chose to give it up. God never said I can't come to Him until I give up the rebellion but He DID accept me and teach me until I chose willingly to give it up. So according to you I could not have been saved for those two years that I knowingly rebelled against God because I refused to give it up. Study what God calls rebellion Carlos. Biblical rebellion is anything you do that is not of God, for God or glorifying God. We all do that - including you. You have got the cart before the horse and will keep many from God. I pray God will open your eyes to the truth.

I am sorry if this post offended anyone but I won't stand by and be silent when someone is teaching an error that will keep anyone from Jesus.

Edited by Nyoka

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First notice, that Jesus directed the ruler to the Law of Moses. As a teacher of the Law (before his crucifixion and ultimate redeeming of man from the Law) Christ's teachings were distinctly dispensational., meaning he taught the Law in truth. He is not here teaching this man about salvation by Grace through faith. He had yet to be the sin bearer of the world.

To be complete in what I am saying I feel a need to respond to what you said above Saved.

Jesus was indeed a teacher of the Law before he became the sin bearer of the world on the cross. You are correct in saying so.

But it is likewise true that Jesus DID teach people how to be saved in the Gospels. The book of John (again before He was even crucified) is absolutely FULL of references about how to be saved by believing in Him.

That's not salvation by Law but by faith in who He was (the Messiah...the one who was to come and redeem His people from their sins).

He was teaching the ruler about the need to have faith. He was not laying down a law of selling all you have to be saved. A couple of chapters later there is the case of Zaccheus the tax collector (Luke 19). At one point Jesus stated that salvation had come to the house of Zaccheus when Zaccheus boldly proclaimed that he would give half of his money away and refund 4 times anyone that he had defrauded. Jesus did not say to him that he needed to give up all his possessions as he told the young ruler.

Zaccheus did not trust in his riches like the young ruler did.

Jesus was talking about the heart of both men. Jesus was getting at what was happening in the heart. On the lack of trust in God by faith in the one and on the faith in the other that happened when he decided to honor Jesus and act accordingly.

If you disagree with me on that then we will simply have to disagree and leave it at that.

The account in Mark says Christ loved this man. This is not teaching how one can be saved, brother. This is showing that a man can never be justified by the law. To use this to teach someone how to be saved is not handling the word rightly.

There you go again. What did I say in my post Saved? What is the necessary ingredient for salvation in what I said?

FAITH!

Enough said on that as you don't seem to hear me no matter what I say, how many times I capitalize it, or otherwise.

Let's just call it like it is from this point forward brother. You are saying salvation by faith is not enough. You may not be maliciously doing this, but your teaching is clearly saying that faith is not enough (under the guise of giving up everything in order to be saved).

And as usual you completely and totally misunderstand the nature of what I am saying. That FAITH is all that is necessary but that faith in God entails trusting Him as God which involves surrendering to Him.

No need for me to keep rehashing this as you are not hearing me no matter how many times I repeat myself.

I don't know if this is offensive (it most likely is) but how long have you been saved, brother?

You can say whatever you want to say Saved and whatever this forum allows you to say as far as I am concerned though I would encourage you to make sure you only say to me what God would want you to say for your sake if not mine.

I have not taken offense at all in anything you have ever said to me.

I have been saved since about 1978. I don't know exactly when in that year I got saved but I believe it was sometime in that year. I say that because for a while I did not fully understand the Gospel and may not have been saved when I think I was.

But approximately since then.

You sound like a new convert in a lot of the things you post.

Whether a new convert or an old one...what difference does it make? It's what the Word says that counts. Not how long I have been a convert :).

When you were first converted, you mean to tell me that you understood what it meant to trust God in "all"?

I yielded to God as God to whatever degree I knew His will. In other words there was nothing in my heart that I was hanging on to. That doesn't mean that I understood all of God in every way or that there were not areas (that I did not initially know) that I was hanging on to that God later revealed to me that I needed to surrender to God in.

Only that at the point of conversion that I yielded to God as God all the way in so far as I knew what He wanted of me.

When I got saved I was just like the Philippian Jailer, scared to death because for the first time I was confronted with my sins, and what it meant to trespass against God. I was literally trembling and wanted to know how to be saved, I got my answer in trusting in Christ. I knew nothing of selling out everything, or giving up anything. I didn't even know Christians were supposed to suffer. That was 20 years ago, and I learned these things. I grew in Grace and can now say I'm not the same young babe I was on the day God saved me.

And so? We are all babes when first coming to God.

The fact is that you were apparently aware that God was God and that you were not. You were obviously aware of what the Gospel was in so far as having a knowledge of Christ having died for your sins.

And you yielded to God in so far as you knew who He was and what you were (a sinner in need of salvation). The fact that you did not know what selling out everything to Jesus is or what giving it all up to God is or anything else doesn't matter.

You gave all that you were to God in surrender to all that you knew of Him! That's the point.

You were desperate for salvation, trembling, and came to God on His terms. It would not have mattered one iota if God had told you to sell all you owned and give it to the poor. You were confronted with heading to hell or heading to heaven. You would have yielded to God no matter what He said to do assuming you were serious about wanting heaven at all costs.

That is surrender by any definition of the word!

I say all that to say, maybe you have a lot more living to do, brother. You sound like a very young convert. This teaching of yours has zeal, but it has the wrong delivery. I'm almost 100% certain that not one single believer has met the criteria that you are placing on salvation. After salvation, after the new birth, yes, but as a prerequisite for salvation, no.

That's quite the statement Saved. I mean for you to say that not one single believer meets the criteria of having genuine saving faith of the kind the produces works...the only criteria that I have been saying all along.

Quite a statement indeed.

I mean if few if any person's have that kind of saving faith...goodness...I don't know what to say.

Carlos

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Actually you haven't said enough in your posts, Carlos.

I disagree. Please read through my posts again. I have said and explained myself as clearly as I know how. If what I have said is not enough then there is little I can say more than what I have said to make things clearer for you and will likely leave it at that (though I may from time to time respond further to something you say about specific verses and what I say they say).

Carlos

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