Paradigm Shift in Bible Prophecy in 400 yrs

[JustinM]

WHY THE PARADIGM SHIFT IN THE INTERPRETATION OF END-TIME BIBLE PROPHECY BETWEEN THE EARLY PROTESTANT REFORMERS AND PROTESTANT CHURCHES TODAY?

In the late 1500s, 1600s and all the way up to the early 20th century, end-time Bible Prophecy revolved around the Papacy in Rome as the main player.

But today the focus has shifted to Islam, Muslims, the Middle East, Israel and the Jews.

My question is what has changed?

Were the Reformers, who exposed the Papacy as the little horn Power and Anti-christ System, all wrong 400 yrs earlier?

The rebirth of Israel as a Sovereign/Jewish nation was the paradigm shift.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Bold Believer.

The word oft translated hell in the New Testament is hades, or 'the grave'. Jesus described the fate of the godless in the grave in one of his teachings and the godless man in the grave clearly states: "I am in torment in this flame." He was not in Gehenna (the Lake of Fire burning with sulphur and brimstone), but he was definitely being tormented in flame. (Perhaps the place where he was is proximate to the Lake of Fire, and so he was getting the flame/heat without actually being IN the Lake of Fire, like standing next to an open furnace.)

The Lake of Fire IS somewhere and it IS burning now. How do I know? Because the Lake of Fire is a created place and all creation ceased on the Sixth Day. We are told in Revelation that it will contain 2 inhabitants before all of the others arrive, the Beast and False Prophet of Revelation. Eventually Death (the state of death and all it entails) and Hell (the grave, since there will be no more death, and thus no need for the grave) will be cast (violently hurled) into the Lake of Fire on the Last Day.

Obviously, it's a place to be avoided. To avoid it, believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and arose on the Third Day.

Are you refering to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus?

And also did the Reformers believe that?

Yes to the teaching parable. Did the Reformers believe what? (Just want to make sure what you're asking so I don't steer you in teh wrong direction.)

Is a parable real or is it a story with a message?

And I meant what did the Reformers believe concerning hell? Did they believe it is burning somewhere now?

Now that I look at that particular passage, Jesus never states it's a parable. Jesus is telling something which is true.

Really? Its a true literal story?

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

How many people can Abraham's bosom accomodate?

Is there communication between heaven and hell?

And most importantly, can the dead communicate with the living?

1.It once held all of the Older Testament's righteous dead. Since Christ had not come to take them from there into the presence of God, we can fairly believe that the number was quite large. When Jesus died, he went into the grave and took those righteous people into the presence of God, called by Paul 'taking captivity captive'. That event is described in one of the Gospels as well, speaking of the tombs coming open and the dead seen in Jerusalem. (Matt 27:51-53)

2. No, none. Since HE is God in human form, Jesus is able to relate this story for the benefit of his listeners and us readers.

3. No, the dead cannot communicate with the living; nor can the living communicate with the dead. It is strictly forbidden in Scripture. Why is that 'most important' to you?

This is a common theological response regarding this passage. HOWEVER, there are certain things that one must understand about this passage. It would be wise to look at the passage in the Greek as the language for the most ancient of texts we have of this passage.

Here's a transliteration of the passage (using "e" for epsilon, "ee" for eta, "o" for omicron, "oo" for omega, and "f" for phi):

Kata Loukas 16:13-31

13 "Oudeis oiketees dunatai dusi kuriois douleuein; ee gar ton hena miseesei kai ton heteron agapeesei, ee henos anthexetai kai tou heterou katafroneesei. Ou dunasthe Theoo douleuein kai mamoona."

14 Eekouon de tauta panta hoi Farisaioi filarguroi huparchontes kai exemukteerizon auton.

15 Kai eipen autois, "Humeis este hoi dikaiountes heautous enoopion toon anthroopoon, ho de Theos ginooskei tas kardias humoon; hoti to en anthroopois hupseelon bdelugma enoopion tou Theou.

16 Ho nomos kai hoi profeetai mechri Iooannou; apo tote hee basileia tou Theou euaggelizetai kai pas eis auteen biazetai.

17 Eukopooteron de estin ton ouranon kai teen geen parelthein ee tou nomou mian keraian pesein.

18 Pas ho apoluoon teen gunaika autou kai gamoon heteran moicheuei, kai ho apolelumeneen apo andros gamoon moicheuei.

19 Anthroopos de tis een plousios, kai enedidusketo porfuran kai busson eufrainomenos kath' heemeran lamproos.

20 Ptoochos de tis onomati Lazaros ebebleeto pros ton puloona autou heilkoomenos

21 kai epithumoon chortastheenai apo toon piptontoon apo tees trapezees tou plousiou; alla kai hoi kunes erchomenoi epeleichon ta helkee autou.

22 Egeneto de apothanein ton ptoochon kai apenechtheenai auton hupo toon aggeloon eis ton kolpon Abraam; apethanen de kai ho plousios kai etafee.

23 Kai en too Hadee eparas tous ofthalmous autou huparchoon en basanois, hora Abraam apo makrothen kai Lazaron en tois kolpois autou.

24 Kai autos fooneesas eipen, 'Pater Abraam, ele-eeson me kai pempson Lazaron hina bapsee to akron tou daktulou autou hudatos kai katapsuxee teen gloossan mou, hoti odunoomai en tee flogi tautee.'

25 Eipen de Abraam, 'Teknon, mneestheeti hoti apelabes ta agatha sou en tee zooee sou, kai Lazaros homoioos ta kaka; nun de hoode parakaleitai, su de odunasai.

26 Kai en pasi toutois metaxu heemoon kai humoon chasma mega esteeriktai, hopoos hoi thelontes diabeenai enthen pros humas mee dunoontai, meede ekeithen pros heemas diaperoosin.'

27 Eipen de, 'Erootoo se oun, pater, hina pempsees auton eis ton oikon tou patros mou,

28 echoo gar pente adelfous, hopoos diamartureetai autois, hina mee kai autoi elthoosin eis ton topon touton tees basanou.'

29 Legei de Abraam, 'Echousi Moousea kai tous profeetas; akousatoosan autoon.'

30 Ho de eipen, 'Ouchi, pater Abraam, all' ean tis apo nekroon poreuthee pros autous metanoeesousin.'

31 Eipen de autoo, 'Ei Moouseoos kai toon profeetoon ouk akouousin, oud' ean tis ek nekroon anastee peistheesontai.'"

Greek New Testament, United Bible Societies

Luke 16:13-31

13 "No servant can two masters serve; for either the one he will hate kan the other love, or to one he will pledge allegiance and the other disrespect. You cannot serve God and Wealth."

14 But listening to all these-things the Pharisees who were lovers-of-silver and they overtly sneered at Him.

15 And He said to them, "You are they who justify yourselves before the men, but the God knows the hearts of you; for the one in men who is highly respected an abomination in the eyes of the God.

16 The Torah and the Prophets right up to Yochanan (John); away from then the Kingdom of the God is announced as good news and everyone pushes to get into it.

17 But it is easier for the sky and the ground to go away than from the Torah one kuwts (thorn or horn of a Hebrew letter) to fall.

18 Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and the female divorced from a man marrying commits adultery.

19 "But a particular man was wealthy, and was robed with purple clothes and white linen and he lavishly partied every day.

20 But a particular beggar named Elezar (Lazarus) was thrown in front of his gate, ulcerous,

21 and longing to gorge himself from that which fell from the table of the wealthy man; but even the dogs came and licked his ulcers.

22 But it happened the beggar died and he was born away under the messengers into the haven of Avraham (Abraham); but the wealthy man also died and was interred.

23 However in the Unseen, He raised his eyes, beginning under in tortures, seeing Avraham a long way away from (him) and Elezar in his haven.

24 So, he addressed him saying, 'Father Avraham, have pity on me and send Elezar so that he may moisten the tip of his finger with water and cool my tongue, because I am tortured in this blaze!'

25 But Avraham said, 'Son, remember that you received your benefits in your life, and Elezar likewise (received) the atrocities; but now here he is consoled, but you are grieved.

26 and in all these between us and you a huge chasm is established, so that those who want to cross from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross from there to us.'

27 But he said, 'I ask you then, father, so that you would send him into the house of my father,

28 for I have five brothers, so somehow he may warn them, so that they won't also come into this place of torture!'

29 But Avraham said, 'They have Mosheh (Moses) and the Prophets; let them hear them."

30 But he said, 'No indeed, father Avraham, but if one were to go to them from the dead, they will change!'

31 But he said to him, 'If they won't hear Mosheh and the Prophets, nor will they be convinced even if one rose from the dead!'"

So, there are three notable things here: First, the word translated "hell" is actually the Greek word "hadees," which strictly means the "unseen," as we would use the word the "unknown" today. It is not a place of infamy, but rather of forgottenness! Certainly, this term is used for the "grave," but it is MORE than that; it is the state of being "out of sight, out of mind" to the living!

The second is that Avraham's "bosom" is the Greek word "kolpon," and means "a haven"; not the "center of a hug!"

The third is that, while some say this passage proves that we go directly after death to Avraham's haven or to the torture of the Unseen, I believe it says EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE! In order for Elezar to have a "finger" to dip in literal water to cool literally the wealthy man's "tongue," they must first have "fingers" and "tongues!" And, "voices" and "ears" and "eyes," etc! Therefore, I believe that this is a picture of what they will experience IN THE RESURRECTION! He wakes up in the GRAVE! Since the wealthy man's first awareness is that Elezar is already safe within Avraham's haven, I further believe that this may be the resurrection of the unjustified AFTER the Millennium. A good reason for this is the fire that the wealthy man is experiencing! So, I believe that this fire is the same as the fire the unjustified will experience at the Great White Throne Judgment!

I don't know if it has ever bothered anyone else, but it has always bothered me that the theology about "sh'owl" or "hadees" has been claimed to be that an "unsaved" individual dies and goes to the "bottomless pit" or the "center of the earth" and burns there until he is resurrected at the resurrection of the unjustified after the Millennium and is then judged and then thrown back into the Lake of Fire!

Into the fire, out of the fire for judgment, and then back into the fire. Why wasn't he judged BEFORE he was thrown into the fire the first time?! AFTER the judgment, the person would understand why he was so punished, but BEFORE the judgment? Sure, he probably has a good idea why he would be worthy of such punishment, but he still hasn't been judged, yet!

I don't think that's how it works for the unjustified. I believe that they literally cease to exist at death as a form of "soul sleep." For us, time would pass, but for the unjustified, they die and then the next thing they know is that they are disgorged by their graves as death and sh'owl/hadees give up their dead, are standing before the Great White Throne Judgment in their resurrected bodies, and are receiving and experiencing their sentence, the Lake of Burning Sulfur!

[Bold Believer]

Shalom, Bold Believer.

The word oft translated hell in the New Testament is hades, or 'the grave'. Jesus described the fate of the godless in the grave in one of his teachings and the godless man in the grave clearly states: "I am in torment in this flame." He was not in Gehenna (the Lake of Fire burning with sulphur and brimstone), but he was definitely being tormented in flame. (Perhaps the place where he was is proximate to the Lake of Fire, and so he was getting the flame/heat without actually being IN the Lake of Fire, like standing next to an open furnace.)

The Lake of Fire IS somewhere and it IS burning now. How do I know? Because the Lake of Fire is a created place and all creation ceased on the Sixth Day. We are told in Revelation that it will contain 2 inhabitants before all of the others arrive, the Beast and False Prophet of Revelation. Eventually Death (the state of death and all it entails) and Hell (the grave, since there will be no more death, and thus no need for the grave) will be cast (violently hurled) into the Lake of Fire on the Last Day.

Obviously, it's a place to be avoided. To avoid it, believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and arose on the Third Day.

Are you refering to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus?

And also did the Reformers believe that?

Yes to the teaching parable. Did the Reformers believe what? (Just want to make sure what you're asking so I don't steer you in teh wrong direction.)

Is a parable real or is it a story with a message?

And I meant what did the Reformers believe concerning hell? Did they believe it is burning somewhere now?

Now that I look at that particular passage, Jesus never states it's a parable. Jesus is telling something which is true.

Really? Its a true literal story?

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

How many people can Abraham's bosom accomodate?

Is there communication between heaven and hell?

And most importantly, can the dead communicate with the living?

1.It once held all of the Older Testament's righteous dead. Since Christ had not come to take them from there into the presence of God, we can fairly believe that the number was quite large. When Jesus died, he went into the grave and took those righteous people into the presence of God, called by Paul 'taking captivity captive'. That event is described in one of the Gospels as well, speaking of the tombs coming open and the dead seen in Jerusalem. (Matt 27:51-53)

2. No, none. Since HE is God in human form, Jesus is able to relate this story for the benefit of his listeners and us readers.

3. No, the dead cannot communicate with the living; nor can the living communicate with the dead. It is strictly forbidden in Scripture. Why is that 'most important' to you?

This is a common theological response regarding this passage. HOWEVER, there are certain things that one must understand about this passage. It would be wise to look at the passage in the Greek as the language for the most ancient of texts we have of this passage.

Here's a transliteration of the passage (using "e" for epsilon, "ee" for eta, "o" for omicron, "oo" for omega, and "f" for phi):

Kata Loukas 16:13-31

13 "Oudeis oiketees dunatai dusi kuriois douleuein; ee gar ton hena miseesei kai ton heteron agapeesei, ee henos anthexetai kai tou heterou katafroneesei. Ou dunasthe Theoo douleuein kai mamoona."

14 Eekouon de tauta panta hoi Farisaioi filarguroi huparchontes kai exemukteerizon auton.

15 Kai eipen autois, "Humeis este hoi dikaiountes heautous enoopion toon anthroopoon, ho de Theos ginooskei tas kardias humoon; hoti to en anthroopois hupseelon bdelugma enoopion tou Theou.

16 Ho nomos kai hoi profeetai mechri Iooannou; apo tote hee basileia tou Theou euaggelizetai kai pas eis auteen biazetai.

17 Eukopooteron de estin ton ouranon kai teen geen parelthein ee tou nomou mian keraian pesein.

18 Pas ho apoluoon teen gunaika autou kai gamoon heteran moicheuei, kai ho apolelumeneen apo andros gamoon moicheuei.

19 Anthroopos de tis een plousios, kai enedidusketo porfuran kai busson eufrainomenos kath' heemeran lamproos.

20 Ptoochos de tis onomati Lazaros ebebleeto pros ton puloona autou heilkoomenos

21 kai epithumoon chortastheenai apo toon piptontoon apo tees trapezees tou plousiou; alla kai hoi kunes erchomenoi epeleichon ta helkee autou.

22 Egeneto de apothanein ton ptoochon kai apenechtheenai auton hupo toon aggeloon eis ton kolpon Abraam; apethanen de kai ho plousios kai etafee.

23 Kai en too Hadee eparas tous ofthalmous autou huparchoon en basanois, hora Abraam apo makrothen kai Lazaron en tois kolpois autou.

24 Kai autos fooneesas eipen, 'Pater Abraam, ele-eeson me kai pempson Lazaron hina bapsee to akron tou daktulou autou hudatos kai katapsuxee teen gloossan mou, hoti odunoomai en tee flogi tautee.'

25 Eipen de Abraam, 'Teknon, mneestheeti hoti apelabes ta agatha sou en tee zooee sou, kai Lazaros homoioos ta kaka; nun de hoode parakaleitai, su de odunasai.

26 Kai en pasi toutois metaxu heemoon kai humoon chasma mega esteeriktai, hopoos hoi thelontes diabeenai enthen pros humas mee dunoontai, meede ekeithen pros heemas diaperoosin.'

27 Eipen de, 'Erootoo se oun, pater, hina pempsees auton eis ton oikon tou patros mou,

28 echoo gar pente adelfous, hopoos diamartureetai autois, hina mee kai autoi elthoosin eis ton topon touton tees basanou.'

29 Legei de Abraam, 'Echousi Moousea kai tous profeetas; akousatoosan autoon.'

30 Ho de eipen, 'Ouchi, pater Abraam, all' ean tis apo nekroon poreuthee pros autous metanoeesousin.'

31 Eipen de autoo, 'Ei Moouseoos kai toon profeetoon ouk akouousin, oud' ean tis ek nekroon anastee peistheesontai.'"

Greek New Testament, United Bible Societies

Luke 16:13-31

13 "No servant can two masters serve; for either the one he will hate kan the other love, or to one he will pledge allegiance and the other disrespect. You cannot serve God and Wealth."

14 But listening to all these-things the Pharisees who were lovers-of-silver and they overtly sneered at Him.

15 And He said to them, "You are they who justify yourselves before the men, but the God knows the hearts of you; for the one in men who is highly respected an abomination in the eyes of the God.

16 The Torah and the Prophets right up to Yochanan (John); away from then the Kingdom of the God is announced as good news and everyone pushes to get into it.

17 But it is easier for the sky and the ground to go away than from the Torah one kuwts (thorn or horn of a Hebrew letter) to fall.

18 Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and the female divorced from a man marrying commits adultery.

19 "But a particular man was wealthy, and was robed with purple clothes and white linen and he lavishly partied every day.

20 But a particular beggar named Elezar (Lazarus) was thrown in front of his gate, ulcerous,

21 and longing to gorge himself from that which fell from the table of the wealthy man; but even the dogs came and licked his ulcers.

22 But it happened the beggar died and he was born away under the messengers into the haven of Avraham (Abraham); but the wealthy man also died and was interred.

23 However in the Unseen, He raised his eyes, beginning under in tortures, seeing Avraham a long way away from (him) and Elezar in his haven.

24 So, he addressed him saying, 'Father Avraham, have pity on me and send Elezar so that he may moisten the tip of his finger with water and cool my tongue, because I am tortured in this blaze!'

25 But Avraham said, 'Son, remember that you received your benefits in your life, and Elezar likewise (received) the atrocities; but now here he is consoled, but you are grieved.

26 and in all these between us and you a huge chasm is established, so that those who want to cross from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross from there to us.'

27 But he said, 'I ask you then, father, so that you would send him into the house of my father,

28 for I have five brothers, so somehow he may warn them, so that they won't also come into this place of torture!'

29 But Avraham said, 'They have Mosheh (Moses) and the Prophets; let them hear them."

30 But he said, 'No indeed, father Avraham, but if one were to go to them from the dead, they will change!'

31 But he said to him, 'If they won't hear Mosheh and the Prophets, nor will they be convinced even if one rose from the dead!'"

So, there are three notable things here: First, the word translated "hell" is actually the Greek word "hadees," which strictly means the "unseen," as we would use the word the "unknown" today. It is not a place of infamy, but rather of forgottenness! Certainly, this term is used for the "grave," but it is MORE than that; it is the state of being "out of sight, out of mind" to the living!

The second is that Avraham's "bosom" is the Greek word "kolpon," and means "a haven"; not the "center of a hug!"

The third is that, while some say this passage proves that we go directly after death to Avraham's haven or to the torture of the Unseen, I believe it says EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE! In order for Elezar to have a "finger" to dip in literal water to cool literally the wealthy man's "tongue," they must first have "fingers" and "tongues!" And, "voices" and "ears" and "eyes," etc! Therefore, I believe that this is a picture of what they will experience IN THE RESURRECTION! He wakes up in the GRAVE! Since the wealthy man's first awareness is that Elezar is already safe within Avraham's haven, I further believe that this may be the resurrection of the unjustified AFTER the Millennium. A good reason for this is the fire that the wealthy man is experiencing! So, I believe that this fire is the same as the fire the unjustified will experience at the Great White Throne Judgment!

I don't know if it has ever bothered anyone else, but it has always bothered me that the theology about "sh'owl" or "hadees" has been claimed to be that an "unsaved" individual dies and goes to the "bottomless pit" or the "center of the earth" and burns there until he is resurrected at the resurrection of the unjustified after the Millennium and is then judged and then thrown back into the Lake of Fire!

Into the fire, out of the fire for judgment, and then back into the fire. Why wasn't he judged BEFORE he was thrown into the fire the first time?! AFTER the judgment, the person would understand why he was so punished, but BEFORE the judgment? Sure, he probably has a good idea why he would be worthy of such punishment, but he still hasn't been judged, yet!

I don't think that's how it works for the unjustified. I believe that they literally cease to exist at death as a form of "soul sleep." For us, time would pass, but for the unjustified, they die and then the next thing they know is that they are disgorged by their graves as death and sh'owl/hadees give up their dead, are standing before the Great White Throne Judgment in their resurrected bodies, and are receiving and experiencing their sentence, the Lake of Burning Sulfur!

OK, so your understanding is that the passage is a fast forward to the Last Day? I can't disagree with that, it's certainly possible. As for soul sleep for the unrighteous, that would be letting them off the hook. They'd be getting a break from judgment which they don't deserve. My understanding is that the unrighteous dead person's body is in the ground decomposing and that their spirit and soul are still viable, but trapped in that body until the Last Day. WIthin themselves (their conscience) they are in utter dread, knowing the truth which they denied while alive. They KNOW they're headed for the lake of fire. They may even have visions of it, or even perceive it.

[soldier2]

WHY THE PARADIGM SHIFT IN THE INTERPRETATION OF END-TIME BIBLE PROPHECY BETWEEN THE EARLY PROTESTANT REFORMERS AND PROTESTANT CHURCHES TODAY?

In the late 1500s, 1600s and all the way up to the early 20th century, end-time Bible Prophecy revolved around the Papacy in Rome as the main player.

But today the focus has shifted to Islam, Muslims, the Middle East, Israel and the Jews.

My question is what has changed?

Were the Reformers, who exposed the Papacy as the little horn Power and Anti-christ System, all wrong 400 yrs earlier?

The rebirth of Israel as a Sovereign/Jewish nation was the paradigm shift.

Did the Reformers die for nothing? Did 150,000,000 christians die for nothing?

Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

This will litererally happen as it literally did in Egypt.

[soldier2]

In 1540, Luther wrote:

"Oh Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us thy day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan in Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the apostle Paul wrote (2 Thess 2:3-4) that he will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God - that man of Sin, that Son of Perdition... he suppresses the Law of God and exalts his commandments above the commandments of God." (Froom, Vol.2, p.281)

Do Protestant churches teach that today?

[gdemoss]

In 1540, Luther wrote:

"Oh Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us thy day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan in Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the apostle Paul wrote (2 Thess 2:3-4) that he will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God - that man of Sin, that Son of Perdition... he suppresses the Law of God and exalts his commandments above the commandments of God." (Froom, Vol.2, p.281)

Do Protestant churches teach that today?

I'd hope not. It is not recommended preaching.

Amo 5:18 ¶ Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.

Gary

[soldier2]

In 1540, Luther wrote:

"Oh Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us thy day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan in Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the apostle Paul wrote (2 Thess 2:3-4) that he will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God - that man of Sin, that Son of Perdition... he suppresses the Law of God and exalts his commandments above the commandments of God." (Froom, Vol.2, p.281)

Do Protestant churches teach that today?

I'd hope not. It is not recommended preaching.

Amo 5:18 ¶ Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.

Gary

So just to be clear, Martin Luther and all the Reformers were wrong?

And there is a church today that contines in the teaching of the Reformers. It is a worldwide church just as the Roman Church is.

Edited October 20, 2012 by soldier2

[gdemoss]

In 1540, Luther wrote:

"Oh Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us thy day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan in Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the apostle Paul wrote (2 Thess 2:3-4) that he will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God - that man of Sin, that Son of Perdition... he suppresses the Law of God and exalts his commandments above the commandments of God." (Froom, Vol.2, p.281)

Do Protestant churches teach that today?

I'd hope not. It is not recommended preaching.

Amo 5:18 ¶ Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.

Gary

So just to be clear, Martin Luther and all the Reformers were wrong?

And there is a church today that contines in the teaching of the Reformers. It is a worldwide church just as the Roman Church is.

The reformers were wrong in many things. They were part of the 'awakening' that began the reformation. They were not the be all end all of the finished reform. The church, according to scripture, failed in becoming reformed and actually following Christ and therefore God is going to put them away and return to Judah, raising up the 144,000 to finish bringing in the kingdom. The reformers only accomplished establishing the 2nd of two golden calves called Protestantism.

Gary

[soldier2]

In 1540, Luther wrote:

"Oh Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us thy day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan in Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the apostle Paul wrote (2 Thess 2:3-4) that he will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God - that man of Sin, that Son of Perdition... he suppresses the Law of God and exalts his commandments above the commandments of God." (Froom, Vol.2, p.281)

Do Protestant churches teach that today?

I'd hope not. It is not recommended preaching.

Amo 5:18 ¶ Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.

Gary

So just to be clear, Martin Luther and all the Reformers were wrong?

And there is a church today that contines in the teaching of the Reformers. It is a worldwide church just as the Roman Church is.

The reformers were wrong in many things. They were part of the 'awakening' that began the reformation. They were not the be all end all of the finished reform. The church, according to scripture, failed in becoming reformed and actually following Christ and therefore God is going to put them away and return to Judah, raising up the 144,000 to finish bringing in the kingdom. The reformers only accomplished establishing the 2nd of two golden calves called Protestantism.

Gary

So did the Reformers die and give up their lives teaching error and falsehood?

[gdemoss]

In 1540, Luther wrote:

"Oh Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us thy day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan in Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the apostle Paul wrote (2 Thess 2:3-4) that he will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God - that man of Sin, that Son of Perdition... he suppresses the Law of God and exalts his commandments above the commandments of God." (Froom, Vol.2, p.281)

Do Protestant churches teach that today?

I'd hope not. It is not recommended preaching.

Amo 5:18 ¶ Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.

Gary

So just to be clear, Martin Luther and all the Reformers were wrong?

And there is a church today that contines in the teaching of the Reformers. It is a worldwide church just as the Roman Church is.

The reformers were wrong in many things. They were part of the 'awakening' that began the reformation. They were not the be all end all of the finished reform. The church, according to scripture, failed in becoming reformed and actually following Christ and therefore God is going to put them away and return to Judah, raising up the 144,000 to finish bringing in the kingdom. The reformers only accomplished establishing the 2nd of two golden calves called Protestantism.

Gary

So did the Reformers die and give up their lives teaching error and falsehood?

They died and gave up their lives for a 'purer' form of Christianity that was heading in the right direction as it exited the Catholic Church.

Mar 9:38-40 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.

Gary