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Are some people born as a "bad apple" or evil?


Jayyycuuup

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The bible teaches us that a child goes to heaven because he or she has not yet began to understand the concept of good and bad. So does that automatically mean that all children are born innocent? I believe that we are all born innocent, but capable of giving in to evil, especially in weak moments. What do you think??

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I think this topic falls under the "Lord of The Flies" type question.

Where the human mind even in a child is but a battlefield between different impulses, based on needs and desires vs. the ego as the child grows older. The sins of the parents are not passed down to the child, however, the parent can teach the child bad things, good things, bad ideas and good ideas as can the world that they live in.

This topic should be interesting to read, it's been about 50 years since I read the book Lord of The Flies.

IMHO~~~Dennis

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Romans 9

17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”

18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”

20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

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The bible teaches us that a child goes to heaven because he or she has not yet began to understand the concept of good and bad. So does that automatically mean that all children are born innocent? I believe that we are all born innocent, but capable of giving in to evil, especially in weak moments. What do you think??

All born innocent? Yes.

Rom 9:11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Born with sin in our bodies and therefore born enemies of God? All but one.

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean [thing] out of an unclean? not one.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Capable of giving into evil? Absolute gaurentee.

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Do evil people ever do that which is right? Yes but only by having Gods law written on their hearts.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

What is the solution: One must be born again.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

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Thak you for the scripture gdemoss!

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Jeremiah 1:5

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

1 John 2:12

12. I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Matthew 19:13

13. Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put [his] hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

15 And he laid [his] hands on them, and departed thence.

(We must become like a child, innocent and trusting -- see both Mat. above verses and Mark below) See also: Rom. 8:1

Mark 10:13

13. And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and [his] disciples rebuked those that brought [them].

14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

16 And he took them up in his arms, put [his] hands upon them, and blessed them.

Luke 17:1

1. Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offenses will come: but woe [unto him], through whom they come!

2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

Luke 18:15

15. And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when [his] disciples saw [it], they rebuked them.

16 But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Matthew 18:6

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

(Jesus says the little ones believe in Him. How do we obtain salvation? Is it not by believing in Jesus?) See also: Rom. 8:1, 10

Matthew 18:10

10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

(The little ones each have their own angel watching over them)

Ezekiel 18:20

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

(If you sin you die, if you did not sin you live. You will not go to hell for anything that anyone else did, only for YOUR OWN SINS.) See also: Mt. 5:8; Jer. 1:5; Ex. 32:33; Rev. 3:5; Ezek. 18:4-9; 18:19.

2 Samuel 12:22

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell [whether] GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

(David, who was one favored by God for following God and to whom God conversed with, said that he (David) would join his child again. Question: Was David going to hell or heaven?)

Matthew 18:2

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(What does a child have that would cause Jesus to command that we must become like one of them? If a child was automatically going to hell, then why is it necessary to become like a child? A child has Trust, Faith, innocence!) See also: Mt. 5:8; 18:6; Mk. 9:36-37; Lk. 9:48; Rom. 9:12.

Matthew 5:8

8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

(Who can deny that a baby is pure in heart, How has a baby sinned?) See also: Ezek. 18:20.

Luke 1:41

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

(Would a soul that is under condemnation, that is dammed to hell, leap for joy at hearing the voice of the mother of Jesus?) See also: Lk. 1:44 below.

Luke 1:44

44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Psalms 27:10

10 When my father and my mother forsake me, then the LORD will take me up.

Proverbs 4:4

4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.

(What baby or little child has broken a commandment?)

Proverbs 8:32

32. Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed [are they that] keep my ways.

(How has a baby or little child turned from God's ways?)

Isaiah 40:11

11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry [them] in his bosom, [and] shall gently lead those that are with young.

(Lambs represent young children.)

Mark 9:36

36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them,

37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.

(If a child is not innocent, then why would Jesus say this?) See also: Lk. 9:48 below and also Rom. 8:1.

Luke 9:48

48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.

Matthew 21:15

15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

(Since when does evil praise God. It never has and never will, so babies and sucklings must be good.) See also Psa. 8:2 below.

Psalms 8:2

2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

Nehemiah 8:2

2 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.

( Note here that all those who were not capable of understanding the Word of God was not required to hear the Word of God. This has a very strong implication of accountability.)

1 Kings 15:14

14 But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.

(Would this statement be true if he came out of the womb with sin?) See also: Rom. 8:10.

Jeremiah 49:11

11 Leave thy fatherless children, I will preserve [them] alive; and let thy widows trust in me.

Luke 1:15

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

(The Holy Spirit does not reside inside of a sinner.) See also: Rom 8:10

Psalms 24:3

3. Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?

4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

See also: Mk. 9:36-37; Mt. 18:6; Lk. 1:15; 9:48; Jer. 1:5; Isa. 40:11; 1Ki. 15:14; Rom. 9:11; Ex. 32:23; Rev. 3:5.

Psalms 22:29

29 All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

(The word "keep" here indicates that you are not born with your soul dead. You can not keep something alive if it is already dead and was never alive to start with.)

Romans 2:13

13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

(This is speaking here of God's law, not the law of Moses. What part of God's law have the babies and little children broken?)

Romans 5:14

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offense, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

(This is speaking about physical death, and not the second death of the soul.)

Numbers 14:28

28 Say unto them, [As truly as] I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:

29 Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, [concerning] which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

32 But [as for] you, your carcasses, they shall fall in this wilderness.

( These verses indicate that there is an age of accountability. I do not suggest that such an age is as shown above. But we see here that God did not punish the young ones even though some probably did also murmur against God. Clearly, here an age did play a part in the decision the Israelites made for which God was punishing them. The young people under 20 years of age were not allowed to choose whether to obey God and enter into the land or to Disobey and not enter into the land. If a little child is not able to make a choice, are they to be found guilty? The verse above would say no.)

1 Corinthians 7:14

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

(The children are called holy. Question: Could they be called holy if they were already condemned to hell?)

Romans 9:11

11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Edited by your friend Jacob
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The bible teaches us that a child goes to heaven because he or she has not yet began to understand the concept of good and bad. So does that automatically mean that all children are born innocent? I believe that we are all born innocent, but capable of giving in to evil, especially in weak moments. What do you think??

No, we are not born innocent. Even children are quite capable of doing evil acts and sinning.

Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth,

sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Interestingly, the Bible does not actually state that infants or even children of any age who are not saved go to heaven; however

Biblical evidence points in this direction.

The bible does state this tho" Will not the God of all the earth do right" so it is safe to believe that God, as Judge, will judge fairly and

not in the manner in which we sometimes judge

I think we all have sinned. The concept of an actually evil sinful person is something a little different even tho all sin is evil in the

eyes of God

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The bible teaches us that a child goes to heaven because he or she has not yet began to understand the concept of good and bad. So does that automatically mean that all children are born innocent? I believe that we are all born innocent, but capable of giving in to evil, especially in weak moments. What do you think??

I don't know of any scripture that states that a child goes to heaven because they have not begun to understand the concept of good and bad. If I am overlooking something, please post the scriptural support for that argument, and we can go from there? It is sort of like the age of accountability doctrine. I have never seen that in the Bible. It is just something people came up with based on human reasoning.

Thank you. You saved me the trouble.

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Jeremiah 1:5

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

1 John 2:12

12. I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Matthew 19:13

13. Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put [his] hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

15 And he laid [his] hands on them, and departed thence.

(We must become like a child, innocent and trusting -- see both Mat. above verses and Mark below) See also: Rom. 8:1

Mark 10:13

13. And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and [his] disciples rebuked those that brought [them].

14 But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

16 And he took them up in his arms, put [his] hands upon them, and blessed them.

Luke 17:1

1. Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offenses will come: but woe [unto him], through whom they come!

2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

Luke 18:15

15. And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when [his] disciples saw [it], they rebuked them.

16 But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Matthew 18:6

6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

(Jesus says the little ones believe in Him. How do we obtain salvation? Is it not by believing in Jesus?) See also: Rom. 8:1, 10

Matthew 18:10

10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

(The little ones each have their own angel watching over them)

Ezekiel 18:20

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

(If you sin you die, if you did not sin you live. You will not go to hell for anything that anyone else did, only for YOUR OWN SINS.) See also: Mt. 5:8; Jer. 1:5; Ex. 32:33; Rev. 3:5; Ezek. 18:4-9; 18:19.

2 Samuel 12:22

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell [whether] GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

(David, who was one favored by God for following God and to whom God conversed with, said that he (David) would join his child again. Question: Was David going to hell or heaven?)

Matthew 18:2

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(What does a child have that would cause Jesus to command that we must become like one of them? If a child was automatically going to hell, then why is it necessary to become like a child? A child has Trust, Faith, innocence!) See also: Mt. 5:8; 18:6; Mk. 9:36-37; Lk. 9:48; Rom. 9:12.

Matthew 5:8

8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

(Who can deny that a baby is pure in heart, How has a baby sinned?) See also: Ezek. 18:20.

Luke 1:41

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

(Would a soul that is under condemnation, that is dammed to hell, leap for joy at hearing the voice of the mother of Jesus?) See also: Lk. 1:44 below.

Luke 1:44

44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Psalms 27:10

10 When my father and my mother forsake me, then the LORD will take me up.

Proverbs 4:4

4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.

(What baby or little child has broken a commandment?)

Proverbs 8:32

32. Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed [are they that] keep my ways.

(How has a baby or little child turned from God's ways?)

Isaiah 40:11

11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry [them] in his bosom, [and] shall gently lead those that are with young.

(Lambs represent young children.)

Mark 9:36

36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them,

37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.

(If a child is not innocent, then why would Jesus say this?) See also: Lk. 9:48 below and also Rom. 8:1.

Luke 9:48

48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.

Matthew 21:15

15 And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased,

16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

(Since when does evil praise God. It never has and never will, so babies and sucklings must be good.) See also Psa. 8:2 below.

Psalms 8:2

2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.

Nehemiah 8:2

2 And Ezra the priest brought the law before the congregation both of men and women, and all that could hear with understanding, upon the first day of the seventh month.

( Note here that all those who were not capable of understanding the Word of God was not required to hear the Word of God. This has a very strong implication of accountability.)

1 Kings 15:14

14 But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.

(Would this statement be true if he came out of the womb with sin?) See also: Rom. 8:10.

Jeremiah 49:11

11 Leave thy fatherless children, I will preserve [them] alive; and let thy widows trust in me.

Luke 1:15

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

(The Holy Spirit does not reside inside of a sinner.) See also: Rom 8:10

Psalms 24:3

3. Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?

4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

See also: Mk. 9:36-37; Mt. 18:6; Lk. 1:15; 9:48; Jer. 1:5; Isa. 40:11; 1Ki. 15:14; Rom. 9:11; Ex. 32:23; Rev. 3:5.

Psalms 22:29

29 All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

(The word "keep" here indicates that you are not born with your soul dead. You can not keep something alive if it is already dead and was never alive to start with.)

Romans 2:13

13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

(This is speaking here of God's law, not the law of Moses. What part of God's law have the babies and little children broken?)

Romans 5:14

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offense, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

(This is speaking about physical death, and not the second death of the soul.)

Numbers 14:28

28 Say unto them, [As truly as] I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:

29 Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,

30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, [concerning] which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.

32 But [as for] you, your carcasses, they shall fall in this wilderness.

( These verses indicate that there is an age of accountability. I do not suggest that such an age is as shown above. But we see here that God did not punish the young ones even though some probably did also murmur against God. Clearly, here an age did play a part in the decision the Israelites made for which God was punishing them. The young people under 20 years of age were not allowed to choose whether to obey God and enter into the land or to Disobey and not enter into the land. If a little child is not able to make a choice, are they to be found guilty? The verse above would say no.)

1 Corinthians 7:14

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

(The children are called holy. Question: Could they be called holy if they were already condemned to hell?)

Romans 9:11

11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Jeremiah 1:5

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

This is God calling Jeremiah, ala Romans 9. Jeremiah knew neither good nor evil, but God CHOSE him. It didn't depend on Jeremiah.

1 John 2:12

12. I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

John was not referring to real children here, but to believers. The term 'little children' here is one of endearment, as is the term 'fathers' which is referring to more mature believers.

The fact that Jesus blessed little children has nothing to do with whether or not they are born sinful. It has everything to do with their IGNORANCE of evil. They have no idea what evil is, yet they are perfectly capable of doing it without realizing its eventual consequences. Do babies sin? You bet. Do they have any idea they're doing it? Nope. All that caterwauling for attention is called SELFISHNESS. In its sinful little mind, baby is the center of the universe. Everything revolves around IT. Baby doesn't get want it wants, it squalls until it does (diapers notwithstanding).

Little children are disobedient. If they do something wrong, they will lie to cover it up. They'll take a toy from another child. They want a candy bar in the store or see something at WalMart and pitch an absolute hissy-fit til they get what they want. (Or until Mom or Dad decides to exercise parental responsibility and whacks em on their heiney, horror of horrors.)

Those of you who quote Romans 9 are leaving out the fact of the matter. Neither Jacob nor Esau had DONE any evil while they were in the womb. God CHOSE to love Jacob and chose to HATE Esau before either one was humanly guilty. If you are a Believer, it's because GOD CHOSE TO LOVE YOU. If you're a non-believer, but you're here, the fact that God is drawing you to look at His goodness MIGHT mean he has chosen you. If you reject God's sacrifice, it is proof that God HAS NOT CHOSEN YOU.

Salvation is not by the will of man. (John) Man IS born in sin. (Psalms)

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Born a sinner, yes. We all are.

Are we all capable of evil from birth, or is it something we "grow into" through life's circumstances?

I am not sure.

For instance if identical twins were raised in different homes, one Christian and loving and one a crack den, would the outcome be different for either?

I am not sure, there are so many permutations.

Because anything is possible with God.

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