Tattoos

[Guest Zak_Lem]

Threads like these usually devolve pretty quickly before getting locked, so before that happens I'd just like to say our son and his wife are missionaries to the New Age/backpacker culture, and have served on the mission field in New Zealand, Australia, India, and now in Northern California.

They minister to folks no one else will touch, and they both have some very interesting tats they got nearly ten years ago (they told my wife and me we wouldn't believe how those things have been conversation starters, resulting in some of the people they talk to getting saved)....

Amen~! It Seems There Are Tats Galore On Many Of Our Brothers In The New Tribes Missions.... And Bones In The Nose And Feathers In The Hair Too... Jesus Didn't Seem To Mind....

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. John 13:34-35

[Pure_truth]

Hey, well i think God has made us Pure.

From the way i understood it and the way i feel it is right is that :

Whatever can mess up our systems we shall not take it.

This contains: drugs, contreception any type of addiction, alcohol, tattoos and piercings...and bad food and drink!

We shall stay pure! It is not easy but def. possible

[franciskelsey]

The Believer’s Freedom 1 Corinthians 10

23“Everything is permissible”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”^c

27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28But if anyone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience’ sake^d— 29the other man’s conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another’s conscience? 30If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

Welcome to the Worthy. I hope you too enjoy your time here with us, your brothers and sisters in love. God bless

[franciskelsey]

Paul's words need to be understood in context. Surely you would agree that not everything is permissible since believers are not permitted to murder, commit adultery or idolatry, steal, etc. Tattooing (defacing the exterior of Yahweh's holy temple - graffiti) is not permissible.

Thank you Joco for your question. I do understand what you are asking. I myself do not have any tatoos nor do I plan on getting any, and I also would not be the one to recommend that a Christian does so, as I see it raising more red flags more often then giving glory to God. However, I also will not condemn someone for doing so, as it has brought many to Christ. God uses each of us according to the way in which He made us. No Christian has a tatoo that God did not know was going to be there before they were born. I see many such things like this, such as casinos and an occasional drink. I think too often we focus on our brothers or sisters small things and neglect to look at the big things that block our relationship with God from being stronger. In saying that, let me address your concerns with scripture.

ROMANS 14

4Who are you to condemn someone else’s servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord’s help, they will stand and receive his approval.

5In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable. 6Those who worship the Lord on a special day do it to honor him. Those who eat any kind of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who refuse to eat certain foods also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God. 7For we don’t live for ourselves or die for ourselves. 8If we live, it’s to honor the Lord. And if we die, it’s to honor the Lord. So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9Christ died and rose again for this very purpose—to be Lord both of the living and of the dead.

10So why do you condemn another believer^a? Why do you look down on another believer? Remember, we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. 11For the Scriptures say,

“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,

‘every knee will bend to me,

and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.^b’”

12Yes, each of us will give a personal account to God. 13So let’s stop condemning each other. Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not cause another believer to stumble and fall.

So by this alone I see we should let each brother and sister grow in Jesus Christ their own wy, thus, working out their own salvation. The laws which were in the OT have been replaced by something better. While it is true we should not murder, steal and live immoral lives, we no longer live by the OT laws, but instead, through Jesus Christ alone, which through His holy Spirit, we live above the law. You see, even the OT saints on occasion broke the law and it was not held against them. Was David wrong to fib to the priest to get him and his men food? It did cost the whole priest family their lives! Was David held accountable for murder? The bible never speaks anything bad against David for this, and in fact, Jesus justifies it in His ministry.

It has always been more about the heart than to the letter of the law, which was strictly enforced in Jesus day, by none other than those who hated what was good and loved what was evil!

COLOSSIANS 2

16Therefore, let no one judge you because of what you eat or drink or about the observance of annual holy days, New Moon Festivals, or weekly worship days. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body [that casts the shadow] belongs to Christ.

20If you have died with Christ to the world's way of doing things, why do you let others tell you how to live? It's as though you were still under the world's influence. 21People will tell you, "Don't handle this! Don't taste or touch that!" 22All of these things deal with objects that are only used up anyway. 23These things look like wisdom with their self-imposed worship, [false] humility, and harsh treatment of the body. But they have no value for holding back the constant desires of your corrupt nature.

Galatians 5

13For you have been called to live in freedom, my brothers and sisters. But don’t use your freedom to satisfy your sinful nature. Instead, use your freedom to serve one another in love. 14For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”^c 15But if you are always biting and devouring one another, watch out! Beware of destroying one another.

Living by the Spirit’s Power

16So I say, let the Holy Spirit guide your lives. Then you won’t be doing what your sinful nature craves. 17The sinful nature wants to do evil, which is just the opposite of what the Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are the opposite of what the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, so you are not free to carry out your good intentions. 18But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.

19When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, 20idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, 21envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

22But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things!

24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there. 25Since we are living by the Spirit, let us follow the Spirit’s leading in every part of our lives. 26Let us not become conceited, or provoke one another, or be jealous of one another.

===================================================================================

The bottom line my brother, is as Christians, we live now by Gods Holy Spirit and He directs us in all of our paths. The OT laws could never do this. Even Paul writes that where the law was, sin was, as it was human nature to get as close to the line as possible with out going over, therefore the intentions were fueled by desires and the law made it permissible by its letter, but wisdom never did. Thus God always has looked at our hearts and desires more than the old letter of the law.

Soo, if one wants a tatoo, I will not condemn them for it, but would suggest they seek Christ first, and ask thmselves what their purpose is and what their motivation is in getting a tatoo. If it is not to further the Kingdom of God, if it is for self flattery or attention, than it is sin in the very making, in the very start.

So let us all, most certainly me of all, focus on the very heart of God, and to store up on this earth things that will never be destroyed, things of God, things of heaven. We too often focus on this hotel we are in, and bying all sorts of luggage that we can never bring with us. Let us store things up in heaven so we will not be without when we get to our true home. This is one lesson God has bee teaching me very strongly in these last months.

God bless you all

[franciskelsey]

<< Leviticus 19 >>

New International Version 1984

Various Laws

1The Lord said to Moses, 2“Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: ‘Be holy because I, the Lord your God, am holy.

3“‘Each of you must respect his mother and father, and you must observe my Sabbaths. I am the Lord your God.

4“‘Do not turn to idols or make gods of cast metal for yourselves. I am the Lord your God.

5“‘When you sacrifice a fellowship offering^a to the Lord, sacrifice it in such a way that it will be accepted on your behalf. 6It shall be eaten on the day you sacrifice it or on the next day; anything left over until the third day must be burned up. 7If any of it is eaten on the third day, it is impure and will not be accepted. 8Whoever eats it will be held responsible because he has desecrated what is holy to the Lord; that person must be cut off from his people.

9“‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. 10Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the Lord your God.

11“‘Do not steal.

“‘Do not lie.

“‘Do not deceive one another.

12“‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.

13“‘Do not defraud your neighbor or rob him.

“‘Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight.

14“‘Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the Lord.

15“‘Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

16“‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.

“‘Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the Lord.

17“‘Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt.

18“‘Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord.

19“‘Keep my decrees.

“‘Do not mate different kinds of animals.

“‘Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

“‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

20“‘If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. 21The man, however, must bring a ram to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting for a guilt offering to the Lord. 22With the ram of the guilt offering the priest is to make atonement for him before the Lord for the sin he has committed, and his sin will be forgiven.

23“‘When you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden.^b For three years you are to consider it forbidden^c; it must not be eaten. 24In the fourth year all its fruit will be holy, an offering of praise to the Lord. 25But in the fifth year you may eat its fruit. In this way your harvest will be increased. I am the Lord your God.

26“‘Do not eat any meat with the blood still in it.

“‘Do not practice divination or sorcery.

27“‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

28“‘Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.

29“‘Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.

30“‘Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the Lord.

31“‘Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God.

32“‘Rise in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere your God. I am the Lord.

33“‘When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

35“‘Do not use dishonest standards when measuring length, weight or quantity. 36Use honest scales and honest weights, an honest ephah^d and an honest hin.^e I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt.

37“‘Keep all my decrees and all my laws and follow them. I am the Lord.’”

=

===============================================================================================

Can you tell me why these laws were given or what purpose they served? Basically, though all moral laws still apply, it was seperation from the practices of surrounding nations that did many of these things for wicked purposes and of worship of other Gods or satan.

Between we are free from the law or we are still under the law. If we are still under the law, Jesus died for nothing. Further more, we must obey all of the OT laws, which no one ever in history of mankind could do.

Could you maintain your position if the only book you had was the NT?

Again, I would never personally advise one to do this (tatooing) as my personal belief is it takes away who God made us and distracts from our natural design and beauty. However, I also cannot not tell someone based on an OT law for the Israelites coming out of Egypt, that they are subject to this law, is it countradicts all NT teachings and makes Jesus death into something that never had to be done. You will notice in all repeated laws (keep in mind no one could ever keep the laws as they were) Jesus ups them (9 out of 10, minus the Sabbath keeping) as to in no way apart from living by and through the Holy Spirit and the blood of Christ could we keep them. We are holy through Jesus Christ alone. Jesus teaches always on the very heart of the matter.

You could say we still should not try to go against the OT laws, but the morals of these laws are what we live by through Gods holy Spirit, and not the letter of, as Paul really questions the faith of those who still try to hold on to and obey the law.

God bless brother

Remember, we live through Jesus Christ, and He came to fullfill the law, not to add onto the law. Could you truly live by the standards of the OT laws my good brother? Thankyou Jesus for your sacrifice.

Edited September 22, 2012 by franciskelsey

[Fez]

Topic has been moved to general forum. If you wish to continue the discussion please do it there.

Blessings.

[Sevenseas]

I guess if u are going to keep part of the law you might as well keep all of the law. Otherwise, why even bother

I don't think it makes sense to state part of something and state well God said that, so don't do it, then go out and eat a pork chop

That being said, no tattoo for me...never did and never will...my personal opinion is that it is not wise to copy what the world

considers the latest thing and 'Christianize' it...I think that does not necessarily make sense or a good witness

I am expressing my opinion so kindly do not serve me up hard to swallow verses with a side

of 'scripture' gravy...

fine print: considering what scripture actually does state, if I did want one, I would probably not get one unless I sat down

with myself and found scriptures that I thought might back up my own desires

hope that was clear..........

[j102]

Hey, well i think God has made us Pure.

From the way i understood it and the way i feel it is right is that :

Whatever can mess up our systems we shall not take it.

This contains: drugs, contreception any type of addiction, alcohol, tattoos and piercings...and bad food and drink!

We shall stay pure! It is not easy but def. possible

remember what jesus said to the self rightous Pharisees "it is not what goes into the mouth that makes one unclean, but rather what comes out of the heart that makes a man unclean" may those with ears to hear hear.

[franciskelsey]

Hey Joco. Sorry for the slow response. I will try to reply fully tonight. I would like to be able to perswade you to live in the freedom of Christ instead of th yoke of the law. If I had to follow the "law" I would have failed long ago, as every one does, and as far is the intent of he law, bad thoughts sometimes appear in my head daily, and my daily actions are not often with the right motive, despite me wanting them to be. It seems Paul had this same issue, as I believe we all do. If no one could keep the OT laws, how on earth could we keep the intent or heart of the law in all our thoughts and actions everyday?

I am not saying through the Holy Spirit we can not be blameless (through the blood) and live productive fruitful lives, but rather our thoughts and ations on daily bases I believe fall very short of the glory of God and from where He would like us to be. Growing in Jesus Christ is a very long process indeed.

I got saved as a kid but gave up on God because I could not hold up to the standard of perfection I thought was required, kind of like obeying the OT laws. It was not until later in life, after I had done many stupid things, that God brought me back to Himself. That was 14 years ago. The second time God showed me things I missed the first time. We do not become saved and perfect except through the blood of Jesus Christ. We do not and we can not live out perfect lives. You say when you break a "law" you repent and are forgiven, but do you and can you really obtain how many laws, and further more, the intents of the law concerning a pure heart, that you break everyday of your life. I believe it is written "for who can count all my misdeeds".

I know I cannot live up to perfect standards and I do not try. I live instead by the Holy Spirit and through Him alone with the word of God. When I feel convicted of something or directed to do something, and I refuse to heed, then I know in fact, I am in sin.

God bless brother and I wll try to get to all your quetions later on tonight.

[Fez]

I guess if u are going to keep part of the law you might as well keep all of the law. Otherwise, why even bother

I don't think it makes sense to state part of something and state well God said that, so don't do it, then go out and eat a pork chop

That being said, no tattoo for me...never did and never will...my personal opinion is that it is not wise to copy what the world

considers the latest thing and 'Christianize' it...I think that does not necessarily make sense or a good witness

I am expressing my opinion so kindly do not serve me up hard to swallow verses with a side

of 'scripture' gravy...

fine print: considering what scripture actually does state, if I did want one, I would probably not get one unless I sat down

with myself and found scriptures that I thought might back up my own desires

hope that was clear..........

It was clear to me. I agree. I also like the point about "Christianize it"!

BTW, I would not eat a pork chop either

joco, just about every person answering your posts has told you that they think you live under the law, and have not yet experienced living in the Grace our Lord Jesus Christ freely gave.

I would be very interested to know which church you attend, and what denomination you are if you are comfortable with answering?