" Jesus Second Coming"

[Guest]

Just a clarification retro on a small point: Not everyone says there is a 7 year tribulation, though that is very common to be sure. I used to be one of them, then I noticed in Matt 24, that Jesus said "THEN there will be great tribulation", the 'then' being at the midpoint, of the assumed by many, 7 years/70th week of Daniel. So for many years, my opinion was that the tribulation was 3-1/2 years. More recently however, I have come to realize, that the tribulation is not a period of time at all, but an even,t a happening within a period of time. A subtle difference perhaps, but I think it is not quite accurate to give the tribulation a specific length, and from my perspective, it would be more accurate to say that within the second half of Daniels 70th week, there will be great tribulation.

Of course, this idea is tossed out for everyone, not really to you retro, but your comment gave me opportunity to make this small point.

[Miss Agapelove]

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

I have checked the scriptures and you are correct, It does not say secret ? I did say at the bottom of the thread that I had copied it from Gotquestions.org....So thank you for pointing this out....

I think it was ment in a way that God has not revield this to us, so its his secret timing ?

1 Corinthians 15:50–54

Mystery and Victory

50 I tell you this, brothers: qflesh and blood rcannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. sWe shall not all sleep, tbut we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For uthe trumpet will sound, and vthe dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

There is nothing above that is secret. Notice what Paul actually said:

• Behold! I tell you a mystery. s
  
• We shall not all sleep, tbut we shall all be changed, 52
  
• in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For uthe trumpet will sound, and vthe dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
  

A mystery, is something not formerly revealed (3466 mystḗrion (the root of the English term, "mystery") – mystery. In the Bible, a "mystery" (3466 /mystḗrion) is not something unknowable. Rather, it is what can only be known through revelation, i.e. because God reveals it.) and here Paul is telling (revealing) it. What is the mystery he is revealing? That not everyone will die (sleep), but that some who are living, will be changed.

Compare that to the rapture passage you quoted:

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

What elements are described there?

Cor: We shall not all sleep, tbut we shall all be changed

Thess: and the dead (the sleeping ones) in Christ will rise first. hen we who are alive (the ones who will be changed) and remain will be caught up together with them

Cor:in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed

Notice that Paul also said that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

He has pointed out, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, giving us a reason why we MUST be changed.

Taking the idea of a necessary change with us to the thessalonian passage, why would we suppose the Christians caught up in the Rapture, are not changed? Of course, we assume they are which makes these to events seem pretty similar, if fact, they are the same event.

Nothing in the thessalonian chapter says a thing about before the tribulation, so why do we? Seriously WHY DO WE? Not one verse in the bible, contradicts the idea that the rapture is after the great tribulation, and not one verse in the bible, says that it is before the tribulation.

You mentioned Matt 24. Let's look at this verse about the rapture from 1 Thess:

for the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

and compare that with Matt 24:

“But immediately after the tribulation of those days . . . . . they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Notice the common elements in bold, and notice that the thessalonian passage says nothing about going to heaven at that time. I think that it is helpful to note, that Paul clarified some of this in 2nd thess where he said:

with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him

That sets the topic, and then he says:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

Don't you think this is describing what Jesus described in Matt 24?:

15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17“Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18“Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20“But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21“For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

It sure looks to me like Paul is poining out, the Jesus will not return until after this abominiation in the temple is revealed, just as Jesus said. This abomination is the signal, from which they are to flee, becuase:

"For then there will be a great tribulation"

.No where, are there two second coming mentioned. The passages that are said to be the rapture, share the same characteristics as the return of Christ after the tribulation.

If all that were not clear enough, we have the fact the Paul said of the rapture, that the dead in Christ are raised first, then the living are raptured. If we knew at what point the dead are raised, we would know could discover a point after which the rapture occurs. Fortunelty, we are given that information, in Rev 20:

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Notice, that these people are in the tribulation, becuase they would not accept the mark of the beast, and notice that they are killed for their testamony of Jesus, so we know these are Christians. Then it says:

This is the first resurrection.Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

So, the question becomes, if this is the first ressurection, and then those who are raptured are changes after the dead in Christ rise, and the first ressurrection occurs after the tribulation, how is it possible that any are raptured before the tribulation:

I have stuggled for years to learn why it is, that people refuse to accept the simple statements of scripture, to beleive concocted theories that complicate things bye reinterpreting tidbits torn from their contexts. I understant that many, have only heard one side preached at them or represented in movies and novels, but what ever happened to the concept of being a Berean?:

Now the Bereans were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Be a Berean!

Love ya all

Dearest Brother....

Thank you for a brilliant exsplanation and exspressing the second coming much better than I did....God Bless you Brother.....

God placed on my heart to post this here, and we can only learn from each other, I already have a picture in my heart what will take place, And I cant WAIT !

Thank you everyone for writting your thoughts here....Lets hope that between us we can help others find hope in Jesus coming home..... :-)

Love & Blessings to you all......sis tina x

Thank you so much Sister Tina for your timely posting this topic and also to you Omegaman for your contribution. I've always been a bit intimidated trying to understand the second coming and have been studying it more lately and this thread has helped me a lot.

Dearest Sister JanieC

I am so pleased that you are starting to feel a little more relaxed about "Jesus second coming" ....I felt the same as you to be perfectly honest, I am very sure that we are not

the only ones !

I shall pray, and I shall return with a lighter opening page that will open more hearts to "Jesus second coming" I am going to join hearts with others and together we shall respond soon.....

Love & Blessings sis tina x

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Brother Mike.

Retrobyter

What if there ISN'T a period of "seven years of Tribulation?" Everyone who says that there is such a period makes the ASSUMPTION that the "tribulation" is the same time period as the "70th Seven of Dani'el.

Jesus said that time will be shortened else no flesh will survive it. Some events in tribulation remove 1/3 of the Earths population. It's a supernatural and dreadful time. Shortened means it's on a time frame and specific series of events that occur.

As for Danial and what others have seen. Seven years is what is consistent between most all bible scholars. This in the Pre-Trib camp and those in the Post Trib camp see the same thing in this time period. I know wrong is always wrong no matter how early the finding is, but I also trust the Holy Spirit to direct the body as a whole in giving us this information. So many can't be wrong and it's not a split thing, it's a majority thing that it is a defined period of seven years.

Many camps are split on tongues, split on prosperity gospel, split on healing doctrine.... They are split............

Not many are split on the fact that Jesus is Lord and the only way to have eternal life. We all believe in the Power of the Blood.

Not many are split on this seven year period............ just a few oddballs out there that think they got some great personal revelation, and it's wrong.

Jesus Is Lord.

That I'm an oddball I won't dispute. However, consider the evidence: Yeshua` was speaking directly to His talmudiym, His students, His disciples, when He said,...

Matthew 24:4-6, 9, 15-21

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

...

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

...

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

KJV

So when did this "great tribulation" or "terrible pressure" begin? Not in the future, it began in the PAST! On the other hand, when will it end?

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

KJV

So, the "tribulation of those days" or the "pressure of that time period" will be yet in our future, for these great events haven't happened, yet. Preterists try to explain this away and will even declare that the Son of man has already come "spiritually" in the first century, often linking it with the stoning of Stephen, but the truth is that Yeshua` has NOT yet come back and sent out His messengers to gather His chosen ones from the four winds (four compass directions) with the loud sound of a trumpet!

Also, there is not a single verse that suggests that this "tribulation," this "pressure," is any different between verses 21 and 29! Thus, one may conclude that the pressure that His students felt in the first century was an ON-GOING pressure that would continue even into our future when the Messiah returns. That would make it more like a 2000-year tribulation (roughly speaking) rather than a "seven-year tribulation."

Now, look at verse 22, sandwiched neatly between verses 21 and 23:

Matthew 24:20-23

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

KJV

So, the reason why Yeshua` said "those days should be shortened" was for "the elect's sake!" That word "elect," Greek "eklektous," means "chosen ones." Thus, the words "there should no flesh be saved" is concerned primarily with the "elect," with the "chosen ones," and through 1 Peter 2:9, a quotation from Deuteronomy 7:6 and 14:2,

1 Peter 2:4-10

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

KJV

Deuteronomy 7:6

6 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

KJV

Deuteronomy 14:1-2

14 Ye are the children of the Lord your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

2 for thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

KJV

this Greek word "eklektous" is directly linked as a translation word for the Hebrew word "baachar," but more importantly, these "elect" are directly linked to the "chosen" seed of Isra'el! These Goyim, Gentiles, to whom Peter was talking have become part of the peculiar people, the chosen seed, the holy nation! They had not obtained mercy in the past, but now they HAVE obtained mercy! They didn't used to be a people, but now they are the people of God!

Therefore, it is for the chosen ones' sakes that the days are shortened. But, what does that mean? It doesn't refer to the time period being shorter, because it's been going on for almost 2000 years now! It is about the actual days of "pressure" or "tribulation" suffering DURING that time period. Being addressed primarily to the Jewish believers who were standing or sitting right there in front of Yeshua` that day on the mountain, this was addressed to the Jewish people as well as Gentile believers who were also grafted in. This suffering would be given periods of relief - reprieves - that allowed them to survive down through the centuries! So much so that we now can label the various subsections of the time period of "tribulation" or "pressure" into things like "Roman persecutions," "Crusades," "Inquisitions," "Pogroms," "Exiles," and even the "Holocaust!" These were all subsegments of the "tribulation" down through the last 2000 years in which true believers and Jews suffered at the hands of wicked men! Even believing Arabs didn't escape many of these persecutions!

Now, I'm not denying the predictions of Yeshua` penned with the hand of Yochanan (John) in the book of His Revelation, but these are just the ENDING of the days of "pressure," not the whole thing.

Lastly, the first half of the last Seven of Dani'el 9 was to be seen in Yeshua`s first coming; the second half will occur when He returns and offers Himself again as Isra'el's King. This time, they will LEAP at the chance, gladly accepting Him as their Rescuer, as their Deliverer!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Brother Mike.

Retrobyter

Right, I see your point. The Jewish people have suffered since, and if your Pre-Trib camp the Jews are the elect or chosen as God's people.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

That verse there though and the one I posted from Danial above show something occur in this earth man has never seen or experienced. We have verses talk about the Wrath of God, and Jesus telling the seventh Church they continue to do well, they will escape the trial that is to come on the Whole earth. While we can see that things are pretty bad, and the Jews have gone through bad things, it's nothing compared to what is going to take place during the Tribulation.

First, a minor point: Hebrew names are Hebrew phrases that mean something: Dani'EL, means "God is Judge." "Dan" means "judge," and "El" means "God." The "El" portion is spelled alef-lamed with a tsere vowel pointing under the alef giving the "ay" sound. The alef is the small explosive sound sometimes made in the words "egg" or "umbrella" at the beginning of those words and is often represented by an acute accent mark or a closing quote symbol, " ' ", when transliterated into English. So, the point is it is "Daniel," not "Danial." (I know, just a typo, right?)

Second, at the time that the Messiah was here during His first Advent, had ANYONE ever expected a 2,000-year-long "tribulation?!" Wouldn't that qualify as a "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to that time?"

Third, I'm not really sure to which Scripture verse or passage in Dani'el you are referring, but know this: Majority is NOT always right! To the contrary, "narrow is the way that leads to life" and "broad is the way that leads to destruction." Furthermore, are you going to tell me that the majority belief that "if my good deeds outweigh my bad deeds," I'd be okay in God's judgment? Or, how about the common belief that the "world is flat" in the 1400s? "Let God be true and EVERY MAN A LIAR!"

Fourth, Dani'el's 70 Sevens of years, the prophecy actually given through Gavri'el (Gabriel), was about the Messiah: The "prince that shall come" is part of a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE and is thus OUTSIDE of the core sentence structure in Dani'el 9:26. He cannot be the antecedent for the word "he" in verse 27. That is especially true in Hebrew. In Hebrew grammar, it is the second noun in a noun construct state and therefore cannot be the subject for the verbs which follow. The antecedent for the word "he" in verse 27 MUST go back to the "Mashiach" in verse 26, the "Messiah!" And, as I pointed out earlier, Yeshua` haMashiach, Jesus the Christ, IS the One who well fits the verbs of verse 27.

I DO agree that things will get worse, but there is NO CONNECTION between the verses about the "tribulation" and the verses about the "seventy Sevens" of years. Thus, there is NO CONNECTION between "tribulation" and a "seven-year period" because that is the ONLY reference that some suggest makes such a connection!

We have beast coming out of smoking pits in the Tribulation... It's not copters or modern armor as they are kept in Hangers and on battleships. So, the Tribulation is the Wrath, and we have yet to see anything like it yet.

I know some believe this Tribulation has already started... I still have to go with what the Pre and Post tribbers have agreed on.. That is a seven year defined period of God's Wrath.

Have you ever noticed how the plagues of Revelation are in conjunction with the arrival of the Messiah? All of the vial or bowl plagues happen in rapid succession with His arrival! Indeed, the whole thing from the start of the fifth shofar (trumpet) onward are part of the three woes!

The locusts that come out of "tou freatos tees abussou," "the bottomless pit," or "the unsounded pit," are just that - a race of LOCUSTS! They are not helicopters; they are not demons; they are large LOCUSTS with stingers in their abdomens and those abdomens are elongated like the cephalothoraxes of scorpions. They have a king instead of a queen, like ants and bees have, and the name of the king is "Abaddown" in Hebrew and "Apolluon" in Greek. Both words mean "destruction" (not "destroyer"), indicating that when the king dies, the species dies. The species only lasts for five months.

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Danielzk.

The 7 year tribulation I believe is really misundertsood presentation,, the Great Tribulation last 3 1/2 years ,, but the 70th week is 7 years ,...a peace treaty for 7 years years ,, tribulation as we now have it will continue but when the man of sin desecrates the temple by sitting in the throne claiming to be god and sending out orders to kill all Jews in Judea starts the Great trib,,, Bride of Christ is caught up into the clouids to be with Jesus at the time when the son of perdition is revealed at the start of the 70th week ,,, people somehow started calling it a 7 year trib ,,

Actually, most people who study the book of Revelation are stuck in this concept that the 70th Seven is the Tribulation, and that the last half of the Seven is the Great Tribulation. And being stuck, they misread Revelation when it talks about the "42 months," or "the time, times and half a time," or "a thousand two hundred and threescore days":

Revelation 11:1-13:10

11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

KJV

Here, the phrase "42 months" was only bold-faced; the phrase "1,260 days" was bold-faced and underlined; and the phrase "time, times, and half a time" was only underlined. The three were given in different ways of telling time because they are three different time periods! They are NOT the same!

A Jewish month always started with the sighting of the first sliver of a moon in its cycle, a "new moon." They would carefully watch for it because it was how they would judge when their holidays (holy days) would occur, and the lunar cycle is roughly 29.5 days. Sometimes, the sky would be overcast and the moon would not be visible on that day or even on the next. If that occurred, they would estimate when the new moon occurred by calculation, but they preferred actually being able to see the "new moon," and that day it was seen was itself a holy day, "ro'sh chodesh," the "holy head" of the month. Thus, 42 months = AT MOST 42 months x 29.5 days/month = 1,239 days, and because Jewish time-keeping allows for any portion of a time period as being counted as another of that time period, 42 months could also = AT LEAST 1 day + 40 months x 29.5 days/month + 1 day = 1,182 days! It would NEVER be a full 1,260 days!

Regarding the "time, times, and half a time" phrase, I would assume that Yochanan (or Yeshua` or a messenger) used this phrase to link with Dani'el 7:25:

Daniel 7:24-25

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

KJV

So, such a quotation would link the Greek word "kairos," translated "time" (NT:2540), to the Aramaic word "`iddan," also translated "time" (OT:5732), for Daniel 7 was written in Aramaic. The Aramaic of Dani'el 7:25 is...

Daniel 7:25

25 Uw-miliyn l-tsad `Ilaa'aah ymallil uwlqadiysheey `Elyowniyn yvalee' v-yicbar l-hashnaayaah zimniyn v-daat v-yityahavuwn biydeeh `ad `iddaan v-`iddaaniyn uw-flag `iddaan:

JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh

25 Uw-miliyn = 25 And-words

l-tsad = to/for-against

`Ilaa'aah = [the]-most-High

ymallil = he-shall-speak

uwlqadiysheey = and-to-holy-ones

`Elyowniyn = of-[the]-most-High

yvalee' = he-shall-afflict

v-yicbar = and--he-shall-hope

l-hashnaayaah = to-alter

zimniyn = appointed-occasions

v-daat = and-decrees/laws

v-yityahavuwn = and-they-shall-be-delivered

biydeeh = in-his-hand

`ad = until

`iddaan = a-time

v-`iddaaniyn = and-times (dual)

uw-flag = and-half

`iddaan: = a-time:

The interesting thing about this word "`iddaan" is that it can refer to any cycle! The Hebrew equivalent "`eed" is used for the "menstrual cycle!" However, if we assume that it is referring to the whole holiday cycle being a full year, then we are talking about the Jewish SOLAR year, because it is based on the SEASONS, not the lunar months! And, the solar year, like EVERYONE'S year, is 365.2422 days long on average! So, now we are talking about a time period of 3.5 years x 365.2422 days/year = approximately 1,278.3477 days!

So, we are talking about three different time periods such that...

"a time, times, and half a time" (1278.3477 days) > "1,260 days" > "42 months" ([1182,1239] days).

We can see that these time periods are close to each other, but they are not identical, and I believe that there's a reason why they were identified the way they were.

[gdemoss]

Just as in the case as having 4 different books called gospel of Christ , each book refers to the same Christ , not various ones, each author offers a viewpoint that offers some new view from thier own perspective,, as in John offers info that the others do not, but it still refers to the same Christ ..likewise the scriptures from various books speak of the same 2nd coming of Christ , not 3 different times, as we see in real world events as the time draws near , there will be a 7 year covenant treaty that guarentees Israel peace and security for 7 years , this will be confirmed by the man of sin, then at the mid point , 3 1/2 years into it ,he breaks the convenant and demands to be worshipped , he sends out the order to kill Jews in Judea and ravage the people , shortly after this begins, Gods wrath of the inhabitants of earth begins , to punish those who have rejected Christ , but will permit those who do repent and ask for Christs salvation to spend eternity in the LORDS Kingdom

God bless you Daniel in all wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of his plan. The question is who is Israel? If you believe that Israel is solely that little nation of Jews in the middle east then you will miss the covenant agreement when it is made. If you understand that the Israel of God are they who are Gods people scattered throughout the nations.

Hsa 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, [that] in the place where it was said unto them, Ye [are] not my people, [there] it shall be said unto them, [Ye are] the sons of the living God.

Is that little country consisting of our brothers, the Jews, a people that cannot be measured nor numbered as the sand of the sea? Spiritual concepts must be spiritually discerned, they are meat and not milk. Milk is literal while meat is spiritual. God has called all his people by his name though a single country in the world retains the honor of being called by that name. Joseph had two sons while in Egypt. Jesus had two sons while in the world, Peter and Paul. God spoke to us by the prophets, who gave us the scriptures, in similitudes by sovereignly guiding each life spoken of to be a picture that explains what is to come.

Hsa 12:10 I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Let him who has ears to hear, hear.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[rjp34652]

I have pretty much always held to all the same beliefs as you state here....except for one...

When you say the rapture will be secret and instant.

What leads you to believe it will be secret? Wouldn't such a thing be instantly noticeable by the rest of the world?

What makes you think it will happen at all as you've been told to believe?

Do you know what the ideology of the rapture is and where it came from? Perhaps if you did, you'd have second thoughts about its veracity.

Millenialism, as multiple arguments or points has existed since very early in the history of Christianity. Principally it existed only in the west, being a minor point of discussion among the orthodox groups (Russian, Greek, Coptic, etc.). As a discussion of western dogma, then it went through several iterations each time morphing into something scripture did not intend.

In the mid-nineteenth century John Nelson Darby published his work on Dispensationalism. Originally it was meant as a textual and graphic representation of the history of the Judeo-Christian faith; again focusing only on western traditions.

Has it occurred to you yet that something has been lost in the translation of this argument down through the ages?

Has it occurred to you that millennialism in all its forms ISN'T a universal dogma or ideology throughout Christendom?

What does this tell you about the importance or Biblical relevance of it?

Darby's work was published to focus upon the dispensations of grace in history, but something odd happened along the line. Darby also intended to make smooth and clear the riled and muddy waters of millennial doctrine. Instead he made it worse by implying, for the first time, that the rapture was also a major point. It wasn't and isn't, but the debate continues.

Forward in time to the beginning of the twentieth century when a series of conferences were held in the city of Niagara, NY. Ostensibly the conferences were meant to define fundamental Christian protestantism. Following the publication of a series of twelve 'tracts' (each one the size of the New York City phone book), they were generally titled The Fundamentals. From this body of work are those who believe its premise called Fundamentalists.

The Niagara Conference also addressed the ideology of the Rapture and as expected it became a very divisive subject. Most of the delegates to the conference eventually walked out in disgust. Those that remained were mostly Baptist. The conference therefore adopted the Rapture as a valid doctrine even though the quorum had long been lost. What does it mean in terms of legitimacy when the quorum of a committee is lost? It means that the authority of the passage of any resolution is suspect at best and illegal at worst.

In the first decade of the twenty first century an assembly of churches in South Africa determined that the rapture was unBiblical in that it was divisive, did not provide any efficacious content to the body of believers, that this was primarily an American aberration of Christian ideology, and that there was nothing man could do about it in the first place.

Endless argument continues to this day despite the fact that there is no logical support for rapture theory whatsoever. One can quote scripture from now until the second coming, but one of the pillars of doctrine is its logical construction. The rapture theories have none at all. It is little more than a tissue of fantasy, suitable only for Christian novelizations (the equivalent of Star Trek 'beaming out').

Good luck with your theory of nonsense. Christ will come and we will all see Christians still on the ground.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Danielzk.

Just as in the case as having 4 different books called gospel of Christ , each book refers to the same Christ , not various ones, each author offers a viewpoint that offers some new view from thier own perspective,, as in John offers info that the others do not, but it still refers to the same Christ ..likewise the scriptures from various books speak of the same 2nd coming of Christ , not 3 different times, as we see in real world events as the time draws near , there will be a 7 year covenant treaty that guarentees Israel peace and security for 7 years , this will be confirmed by the man of sin, then at the mid point , 3 1/2 years into it ,he breaks the convenant and demands to be worshipped , he sends out the order to kill Jews in Judea and ravage the people , shortly after this begins, Gods wrath of the inhabitants of earth begins , to punish those who have rejected Christ , but will permit those who do repent and ask for Christs salvation to spend eternity in the LORDS Kingdom

God bless you Daniel in all wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of his plan. The question is who is Israel?

Gary

Sometimes what makes these discussions more complicated than need be is to go beyond the stated point while not recognizing it.

When Jesus returns , it will be the same place he ascended from,, the Mount Olivet in Israel,,sometimes Israel in spoken of as a geographical location, sometimes spoken of as a people and a nation, sometimes spoken as a father to many peoples across the globe ,,, context is important to know when each is spoken of

but the man of sin will first be shown for who he really is , he confirms the 7 year covenant which is the 7 year peace treaty in the middle of the week , he claims to be G-D then sends out the order to kill Jews in Israel Judea just as Jesus spoke about ...,then demands the rest of the worlds people accept the Mark,, or be put to death

Sorry, but I've just gotta pipe up again. Where do you get this "7 year peace treaty" nonsense? And, don't say Dani'el 9:27 because that's NOT about the "Antichrist" but about the MESSIAH in verse 26! Do you have another location that suggests such a 7-year peace treaty? If so, let me know; if not, let it go!

[Montana Marv]

Roy

Daniel 9:24 - Seventy - sevens are decreed. v.25 - Know and understand this; from the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Annointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven sevens and sixty two sevens (69 sevens) v. 27 - He will confirm a covenant with many for "one seven", In the middle of the seven (half way into the one seven), he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him/it.

Go to Dan 12:11-13 - From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that cause desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days; Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. As for you (Daniel), go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of these days you will rise up to receive your alloted inheritance.

The 70 - sevens are all mentioned as whole sevens. 7 - sevens, 62 - sevens, and 1 - seven. Absolutley no mention of a seven being split and divided into two seperate parts. Scripture says in the middle of the seven (one seven). A one seven is 7 contineous years.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Miss Agapelove]

Let there be peace..... in your hearts..... Its just a matter of time before God shows up and shows out in a great great way....