Evaluation of the Doctrine of Unconditional Eternal Security or OSAS

[other one]

Sanh, I personally don't think it's spiritually healthy not to try and answer that question.

[Sanh]

Sanh, I personally don't think it's spiritually healthy not to try and answer that question.

 

What I know is that our souls are at peace for as long as we do not interfere with the things that belong only to God.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Sanh

[MarkNigro]

 

 

 

Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved is Absolutely True.

 

There is a difference between eternal security and once-saved-always-saved.  Eternal security means that one is secure for eternity if, and only if, they remain in Christ.  OSAS states that no matter what you do after salvation, you are always saved, so if someone is saved and they go out to rape and kill, it doesn't matter because they are still saved.  Can you see the difference?

 

They are the same and true.

 

Jesus Chist said:

 

John 6:47

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

 

If you can lose it, you never had everlasting life, only the chance of it.

 

 

James, through the Holy Spirit, spoke in James 5:19-20

 

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul^[f] from death and cover a multitude of sins.

 

James was speaking to believers when he made this statement.  Notice how the above is worded.  It is possible for one who is saved to wander from the truth and if he is not turned back, he will suffer death because of the multiple of sins.

 

Jesus even said in Matthew 7:21

 

Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven

 

Notice the warning and requirement here also.

 

Now, care to answer me one question.  If a brother, someone who accepted Christ, does turn back to the world and becomes sexually immoral, dying before he repents, will he be allowed to live eternally with God or will he be cast into the lake of fire?

 

 

Matthew 7:21 does not refute salvation by faith only at all. It does refute salvation by merit or works.

 

Here is what Jesus Christ said.  So it is absolutely sure that all who believe in Jesus Christ the Lord have everlasting life.

 

John 3:14-18

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

Here is the full passage for that verse out of context.

 

Matthew 7:21-23

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

Notice in verse 21 it says, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.” It does not say, “Not everyone who believes on me.” So the verse quoted does not even refute what I said.

 

Now look at verse 22. When these people hear this terrible news, they immediately list WORKS that they had done that should have given them merit. Notice they do not say, “Lord have we not believed on you.” So the passage quoted does not even refute what I said.

 

Now the reason they are rejected is, because they trust in their own works, their faith does not count.

 

Romans 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

Now in verse Matthew 7:21, Jesus Christ mentions “he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Jesus Christ tells us exactly the will of the Father in heaven in the following passage. Notice the will of the Father is to just believe on Jesus Christ as I have been saying. The people in the verse quoted did not do this since their faith did not count because they trusted in their own works.

 

John 6:39-40

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

Finally in verse Matthew 7:23, Jesus says “ye that work iniquity.” The reason is simple. The following passage shows that the only work of God for salvation is to believe on Jesus Christ.  Any other work for salvation is evil. Also since their faith does not count, none of their sins are forgiven.

 

John 6:28-29

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

The verse quoted does not refute that all who believe in Jesus Christ are saved. It refutes what many believe, salvation by works.

 

In love, in Christ, in meekness,

Mark

[other one]

 

Sanh, I personally don't think it's spiritually healthy not to try and answer that question.

 

What I know is that our souls are at peace for as long as we do not interfere with the things that belong only to God.

 

When people are teaching things that could possibly cause someone to go to hell, I think God has made it our business to point it out to people.

[Sanh]

 

 

Sanh, I personally don't think it's spiritually healthy not to try and answer that question.

 

What I know is that our souls are at peace for as long as we do not interfere with the things that belong only to God.

 

When people are teaching things that could possibly cause someone to go to hell, I think God has made it our business to point it out to people.

 

 

 

But the "I think" theory is too risky for our soul considering that God is always beside us at all times and all it needs to take is for us to come to Him and ask God what He wants us to do. We have to learn the art of waiting for the Lord to respond to us so that we may not be resorting to those "I think" or "I believe" theories. God is not selfish for Him not to respond to us should we come to and call on in Him in the right way or in His own terms.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Sanh

[other one]

****sigh******

[OneLight]

Now, care to answer me one question.  If a brother, someone who accepted Christ, does turn back to the world and becomes sexually immoral, dying before he repents, will he be allowed to live eternally with God or will he be cast into the lake of fire?

 

We should refrain from playing to be God even for a time being, whatever job that belongs to God is God's that no man must intervene or butt in in any manner. God is not dead for God to teach us the truth should we come to Him in the right way, is God?

God has already given us this answer, so we are not "playing God" in this case, only agreeing with His words.

Revelation 21:1-8

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

We cannot be afraid to stand on His words. Satan likes to cause us to refrain from standing firm on scripture by getting us to believe we are playing God when we are only agreeing with what God wrote. On the other hand, when there is nothing in scripture to compare to, then that is playing God and we should refrain from this.

[OneLight]

Mark,

I notice that you are refusing to discuss what you disagree with. You claim Matthew 7:21 is often misunderstood and that it does refute salvation by merit or works. Let's look at the whole passage you provided so we are not taking anything our of context.

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

Let go with your premise, that all one need to do is believe in Christ to be saved forever. Those who do the above in His name have to believe in Him in order to do these things: prophesied in His name, cast out demons in His name, done many wonders in His name. Yet, Jesus claims He never knew them. Jesus then continues to explain what he means in the follow verses.

Matthew 7:24-27

“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

“But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

His condition is found in the beginning of each paragraph:"whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them" are those He knows and "everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them" are those whom He will claim He never knew them.

The truth is just the opposite of what you claim. We have to hear and do, not just believe. Again, a study of the parables in Matthew 25 prove this three different times.

Salvation is a gift from God, freely to those who will accept it, not by works. This I agree with. Out initial salvation is just that, which is found in Ephesians 2:8-9.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Yet, the scriptures do not end there. It continues!

Ephesians 2:10

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

God explains "why" we were created, and after we accept His salvation offered to us through the death of His Son, we must continue in His will to do the good works He has prepared for us beforehand. Not to do so would be rejecting to do the will of the Father or to follow the teaching of Jesus.

To end your belief with faith alone is only half the truth. If one dies at the moment of salvation, they have nothing to be concerned about. Their faith has saved them. To have the faith to be saved, but then to continue to live in sin, will not produce the salvation they once had. We can see this in Philippians 2:12-13.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, according to Paul who spoke and taught by the leading of the holy Spirit.

Do not be mislead that all you have to do is believe once and then you are safe forever. This scripture is a continuing belief, not a one-time-forever-belief. One has to continue in this faith in order for it to remain a saving faith.

[MarkNigro]

Mark,

I notice that you are refusing to discuss what you disagree with. You claim Matthew 7:21 is often misunderstood and that it does refute salvation by merit or works. Let's look at the whole passage you provided so we are not taking anything our of context.

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

Let go with your premise, that all one need to do is believe in Christ to be saved forever. Those who do the above in His name have to believe in Him in order to do these things: prophesied in His name, cast out demons in His name, done many wonders in His name. Yet, Jesus claims He never knew them. Jesus then continues to explain what he means in the follow verses.

Matthew 7:24-27

“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

“But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

His condition is found in the beginning of each paragraph:"whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them" are those He knows and "everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them" are those whom He will claim He never knew them.

The truth is just the opposite of what you claim. We have to hear and do, not just believe. Again, a study of the parables in Matthew 25 prove this three different times.

Salvation is a gift from God, freely to those who will accept it, not by works. This I agree with. Out initial salvation is just that, which is found in Ephesians 2:8-9.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Yet, the scriptures do not end there. It continues!

Ephesians 2:10

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

God explains "why" we were created, and after we accept His salvation offered to us through the death of His Son, we must continue in His will to do the good works He has prepared for us beforehand. Not to do so would be rejecting to do the will of the Father or to follow the teaching of Jesus.

To end your belief with faith alone is only half the truth. If one dies at the moment of salvation, they have nothing to be concerned about. Their faith has saved them. To have the faith to be saved, but then to continue to live in sin, will not produce the salvation they once had. We can see this in Philippians 2:12-13.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, according to Paul who spoke and taught by the leading of the holy Spirit.

Do not be mislead that all you have to do is believe once and then you are safe forever. This scripture is a continuing belief, not a one-time-forever-belief. One has to continue in this faith in order for it to remain a saving faith.

The verses from Matthew 24 do not mention hell or heaven at all. Just something in this life.

 

The Ephesian 2:10 verse says "should" not "must" so they are not required.

 

The Philippians 2:12-13 passage just is about how to live after salvation. It does not say work for your salvation or to maintain your salvation.

 

As Paul wrote "not of works"

 

In love, In Christ. in meekness,

Mark

[OneLight]

The verses from Matthew 24 do not mention hell or heaven at all. Just something in this life.

 

The Ephesian 2:10 verse says "should" not "must" so they are not required.

 

The Philippians 2:12-13 passage just is about how to live after salvation. It does not say work for your salvation or to maintain your salvation.

 

As Paul wrote "not of works"

 

In love, In Christ. in meekness,

Mark

Shalom Mark,

Who was talking about Mathew 24? I have been talking about Matthew 25, which indeed does talk about the afterlife.

As for Ephesians 2:10 not using the word "must", I see you are playing with semantics. The meaning of the phrase "we should walk" is based on the word peripateō (G4043), which means:

1. to walk

...A. to make one's way, progress; to make due use of opportunities

...B. Hebrew for, to live

......1. to regulate one's life

......2. to conduct one's self

......3. to pass one's life

It indeed is instructing us to walk in the works that are set before us, but like everything, we have a choice to obey or disobey, which is my point from the beginning. We can choose to disobey and give up our standing in Christ to the point where He will say "I never knew you."

Again, you are not truly looking at the scripture of Philippians 2:12-13, but defending your stance of not ever having to do anything after salvation, using semantics as your defense. These verses do, in fact, tell us to "work out our salvation". This is an ongoing work for us. There is no going around this fact, no matter how much one tries to ignore it. The phrase "work out" derives from the word katergazomai (G2716), which means:

1) to perform, accomplish, achieve

2) to work out i.e. to do that from which something results

...a) of things: bring about, result in

3) to fashion i.e. render one fit for a thing

As you can see, it is an action we have t perform.

You are intelligent, which comes through by your posts, but I can see a deeper word study would benefit you greatly. There is a vast difference between how someone spoke 2000 years ago and how we speak today. The meaning of words do lose it's value in translation at times.