Evaluation of the Doctrine of Unconditional Eternal Security or OSAS

[MarkNigro]

 

The verses from Matthew 24 do not mention hell or heaven at all. Just something in this life.

 

The Ephesian 2:10 verse says "should" not "must" so they are not required.

 

The Philippians 2:12-13 passage just is about how to live after salvation. It does not say work for your salvation or to maintain your salvation.

 

As Paul wrote "not of works"

 

In love, In Christ. in meekness,

Mark

Shalom Mark,

Who was talking about Mathew 24? I have been talking about Matthew 25, which indeed does talk about the afterlife.

As for Ephesians 2:10 not using the word "must", I see you are playing with semantics. The meaning of the phrase "we should walk" is based on the word peripateō (G4043), which means:

1. to walk

...A. to make one's way, progress; to make due use of opportunities

...B. Hebrew for, to live

......1. to regulate one's life

......2. to conduct one's self

......3. to pass one's life

It indeed is instructing us to walk in the works that are set before us, but like everything, we have a choice to obey or disobey, which is my point from the beginning. We can choose to disobey and give up our standing in Christ to the point where He will say "I never knew you."

Again, you are not truly looking at the scripture of Philippians 2:12-13, but defending your stance of not ever having to do anything after salvation, using semantics as your defense. These verses do, in fact, tell us to "work out our salvation". This is an ongoing work for us. There is no going around this fact, no matter how much one tries to ignore it. The phrase "work out" derives from the word katergazomai (G2716), which means:

1) to perform, accomplish, achieve

2) to work out i.e. to do that from which something results

...a) of things: bring about, result in

3) to fashion i.e. render one fit for a thing

As you can see, it is an action we have t perform.

You are intelligent, which comes through by your posts, but I can see a deeper word study would benefit you greatly. There is a vast difference between how someone spoke 2000 years ago and how we speak today. The meaning of words do lose it's value in translation at times.

 

I believe I am correct about the meaning of the 2 verses in question. Since they could not be considered clearly stating otherwise, they could not be used as doctrine.

 

There are well over 200 passages with salvation just by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood, which also show OSAS. 

[OneLight]

The choice is your to continue to grow in understanding or remain where you are.

The issue never has been the moment of salvation, and if you go back and read my posts, you will see that I agree that our initial salvation is by grace through faith and not by works. Yet, to maintain our salvation, we have to allow Christ to change us through the Holy Spirit so we can perform the works God has for us to do. To refuse is quenching the Spirit and taking the Lord off the throne of our lives, in other words, being disobedient.

The doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved is not supported in scripture and is false. Eternal Salvation to those who continue in Christ is supported and the truth. There is a difference and I pray that you learn the difference.

[Guest shiloh357]

Mark,

I notice that you are refusing to discuss what you disagree with. You claim Matthew 7:21 is often misunderstood and that it does refute salvation by merit or works. Let's look at the whole passage you provided so we are not taking anything our of context.

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

Let go with your premise, that all one need to do is believe in Christ to be saved forever. Those who do the above in His name have to believe in Him in order to do these things: prophesied in His name, cast out demons in His name, done many wonders in His name. Yet, Jesus claims He never knew them. Jesus then continues to explain what he means in the follow verses.

 

 

The fact that they are appealing to their works and not to the grace of God, shows that they were not believers at all, coupled with the fact that Jesus said that He never (at any time) knew them.   So these were not people who were doing anything in Jesus' Name, despite their claim.  

[OneLight]

 

Mark,

I notice that you are refusing to discuss what you disagree with. You claim Matthew 7:21 is often misunderstood and that it does refute salvation by merit or works. Let's look at the whole passage you provided so we are not taking anything our of context.

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

Let go with your premise, that all one need to do is believe in Christ to be saved forever. Those who do the above in His name have to believe in Him in order to do these things: prophesied in His name, cast out demons in His name, done many wonders in His name. Yet, Jesus claims He never knew them. Jesus then continues to explain what he means in the follow verses.

 

 

The fact that they are appealing to their works and not to the grace of God, shows that they were not believers at all, coupled with the fact that Jesus said that He never (at any time) knew them.   So these were not people who were doing anything in Jesus' Name, despite their claim.  

 

 

That does not negate the fact that they believed that they were following the Lord or believed in the Lord.  They just refused to follow the Lord as the Lord set forth by following the commandments of the Lord.  They probably believed that were all set because they could use His name to cast out demons and prophesy.  Continue in Matthew 7, verses 24-27, and see how Christ explains the difference of hearing and obeying and hearing and not obeying.

 

Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works, but that is not the end all of our walk in Christ, but only the beginning.  We have a partnership with God in allowing Him to change us to be like Christ, or not and remain in the flesh.  That is our choice and if we choose to remain in the flesh, it is like the seed that fell on the wayside or among the thorns.  Neither bear fruit and a tree that does not bear fruit gets cut down and burned.

[MarkNigro]

 

 

Mark,

I notice that you are refusing to discuss what you disagree with. You claim Matthew 7:21 is often misunderstood and that it does refute salvation by merit or works. Let's look at the whole passage you provided so we are not taking anything our of context.

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

Let go with your premise, that all one need to do is believe in Christ to be saved forever. Those who do the above in His name have to believe in Him in order to do these things: prophesied in His name, cast out demons in His name, done many wonders in His name. Yet, Jesus claims He never knew them. Jesus then continues to explain what he means in the follow verses.

 

 

The fact that they are appealing to their works and not to the grace of God, shows that they were not believers at all, coupled with the fact that Jesus said that He never (at any time) knew them.   So these were not people who were doing anything in Jesus' Name, despite their claim.  

 

 

That does not negate the fact that they believed that they were following the Lord or believed in the Lord.  They just refused to follow the Lord as the Lord set forth by following the commandments of the Lord.  They probably believed that were all set because they could use His name to cast out demons and prophesy.  Continue in Matthew 7, verses 24-27, and see how Christ explains the difference of hearing and obeying and hearing and not obeying.

 

Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works, but that is not the end all of our walk in Christ, but only the beginning.  We have a partnership with God in allowing Him to change us to be like Christ, or not and remain in the flesh.  That is our choice and if we choose to remain in the flesh, it is like the seed that fell on the wayside or among the thorns.  Neither bear fruit and a tree that does not bear fruit gets cut down and burned.

 

Salvation is just by faith and forever. You cannot earn or lose it. If you can earn it, it is not a gift. If you can lose it, it wasn't a gift or salvation.

[OneLight]

 

 

 

Mark,

I notice that you are refusing to discuss what you disagree with. You claim Matthew 7:21 is often misunderstood and that it does refute salvation by merit or works. Let's look at the whole passage you provided so we are not taking anything our of context.

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"

Let go with your premise, that all one need to do is believe in Christ to be saved forever. Those who do the above in His name have to believe in Him in order to do these things: prophesied in His name, cast out demons in His name, done many wonders in His name. Yet, Jesus claims He never knew them. Jesus then continues to explain what he means in the follow verses.

 

 

The fact that they are appealing to their works and not to the grace of God, shows that they were not believers at all, coupled with the fact that Jesus said that He never (at any time) knew them.   So these were not people who were doing anything in Jesus' Name, despite their claim.  

 

 

That does not negate the fact that they believed that they were following the Lord or believed in the Lord.  They just refused to follow the Lord as the Lord set forth by following the commandments of the Lord.  They probably believed that were all set because they could use His name to cast out demons and prophesy.  Continue in Matthew 7, verses 24-27, and see how Christ explains the difference of hearing and obeying and hearing and not obeying.

 

Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works, but that is not the end all of our walk in Christ, but only the beginning.  We have a partnership with God in allowing Him to change us to be like Christ, or not and remain in the flesh.  That is our choice and if we choose to remain in the flesh, it is like the seed that fell on the wayside or among the thorns.  Neither bear fruit and a tree that does not bear fruit gets cut down and burned.

 

Salvation is just by faith and forever. You cannot earn or lose it. If you can earn it, it is not a gift. If you can lose it, it wasn't a gift or salvation.

 

 

That is where you fall short on this, a gift can be rejected.  If this was not the case, everyone would be saved because"God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son", but scripture does not end there.  It continues to include "whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."  This encompasses a choice each of us have to make, and this same choice has to be continued until we pass into the next life.

 

Once we accept Christ as savior, we do not become puppets or a computer program where we do everything we are told.  We continue to make choices.  Not everyone will  choose to continue to follow Christ, or scripture would not warn us about falling away.  The easiest cop out is to say that they were never saved in the first place.  That is a comfortable thought, but unrealistic.

[Sanh]

 

God has already given us this answer, so we are not "playing God" in this case, only agreeing with His words.

Revelation 21:1-8

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

We cannot be afraid to stand on His words. Satan likes to cause us to refrain from standing firm on scripture by getting us to believe we are playing God when we are only agreeing with what God wrote. On the other hand, when there is nothing in scripture to compare to, then that is playing God and we should refrain from this.

 

 

By "playing to be God," to me,  simply means answering hypothetical questions which only belongs to God, no more, no less.  If I may ask you, when did God give you the answer to what you are saying, what is that "what?"

Edited August 19, 2013 by Sanh

[OneLight]

 

 

God has already given us this answer, so we are not "playing God" in this case, only agreeing with His words.

Revelation 21:1-8

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”

And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

We cannot be afraid to stand on His words. Satan likes to cause us to refrain from standing firm on scripture by getting us to believe we are playing God when we are only agreeing with what God wrote. On the other hand, when there is nothing in scripture to compare to, then that is playing God and we should refrain from this.

 

 

By "playing to be God," to me,  simply means answering hypothetical questions which only belongs to God, no more, no less.  If I may ask you, when did God give you the answer to what you are saying, what is that "what?"

 

 

I'm sorry ... your question makes no sense to me.  Can you reword your question? I don't know what you mean when you ask "If I may ask you, when did God give you the answer to what you are saying, what is that "what?""

 

If you mean the words that are underline above, they are found in scripture, Revelation 21:6-8.  I copied and pasted the verses.

[Sanh]

 

 

 

I'm sorry ... your question makes no sense to me.  Can you reword your question? I don't know what you mean when you ask "If I may ask you, when did God give you the answer to what you are saying, what is that "what?""

 

If you mean the words that are underline above, they are found in scripture, Revelation 21:6-8.  I copied and pasted the verses.

 

 

So, Revelation 21:6-8 are verses found in the book of the bible and God did not give it to you/us personally as an answer, do you/we now agree? About playing to be God, I do hope it is now clear to you that it plainly refers to whatever answer that anyone will dare respond to the question previously posted.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Sanh

[MarkNigro]

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry ... your question makes no sense to me.  Can you reword your question? I don't know what you mean when you ask "If I may ask you, when did God give you the answer to what you are saying, what is that "what?""

 

If you mean the words that are underline above, they are found in scripture, Revelation 21:6-8.  I copied and pasted the verses.

 

 

So, Revelation 21:6-8 are verses found in the book of the bible and God did not give it to you/us personally as an answer, do you/we now agree? About playing to be God, I do hope it is now clear to you that it plainly refers to whatever answer that anyone will dare respond to the question previously posted.

 

Here is the passage you refer to:

 

Revelation 21:6-8

 

⁶ And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

⁷ He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

⁸ But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

Notice in verse 8 it mentions "unbelieving." That is because this does not refer to anyone that has believed the gospel of the Lord jesus Christ and trusted in His blood payment for their sins. 

 

The saved have their sins paid for and forgiven by the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

 

Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles, wrote the following. From verse 16, all who believe the gospel of Jesus Christ have salvation. It would not be salvation if there were any possibility of damnation after the moment of salvation.  

 

Romans 1:15-17

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

From verse 25 of the passage below, all those that are saved have all their sins paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

Romans 3:21-26

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

They have all their sins forgiven.

 

Colossians 1:14

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

 

Ephesians 1:7

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

 

Those that are saved are not under the law of sin unto damnation.

 

Romans 6:14

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.