New City Jerusalem

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, OneLight.

...

You fail to answer the question. How is the length, breadth and height equal at the top of a pyramid?

You're not being sensible. Don't think that this question is a "show stopper." First of all, it doesn't have to be. It just has to have the same height as its overall length and width. Second, don't think for one moment that a cube doesn't have the same problem!

Consider this carefully; it will require some thought, some imagination (or at least visualization using a globe), maybe a careful drawing, and some math:

IF the city was a TRUE cube, then the distance that one would travel across the earth's surface WILL BE DIFFERENT whether one is at the top of the cube or at the bottom of the cube! You've got to remember that the cube is even MORE susceptible to the curvature of the earth! We're still talking about a distance of 1,500 miles! Again, assuming that the dimensions of the New Earth will remain basically the same after the Fire, just as the present earth stayed basically the same as the antediluvian earth after the Flood, we are talking about a distance that covers 1,500 mi / 24,902 mi x 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees! Imagine a cut-away view of the earth with the city sitting on its surface. Then, we would have a pie wedge from the center of the earth to each side of the city (actually the center gates on opposite sides of the city) that measures 21.685 degrees at the center of the earth! THAT'S A HUGE ARC! If we were to connect the two points (the two gates) with a straight line, it would pass THROUGH the earth to a depth of 3963.3 mi - 3963.3 mi cos (10.8425 degrees) = 70.75 miles deep! So, you have to ask yourself: IS the city truly a cube dipping down into the earth until it is 70.75 miles deep in the middle? OR does the city's base follow the curvature of the earth?

Now, extend that wedge until it is 1,500 miles above the curved surface of the earth. The edges of this wedge would be perpendicular to the earth's surface at each gate, but the cube would be 10.8425 degrees slanted toward the city! Furthermore, the first foundation of the city would also slope downward into the earth (if it goes down to 70.75 miles below sea level) at that 10.8425 degrees from the "level" surface of the earth at those gates! Can you see the difficulty?

Let's assume for a moment that the city's base follows the curvature of the earth (which it probably should): Does that mean that the TOP of the cube also follows the curvature of the earth to keep the height consistent? If so, then how is it a "cube?!" Furthermore, how does one measure the height of the city if the wall is slanted by 10.8425 degrees? Does one measure staight up vertically and then over to the top or does one measure straight up the slanted side and ... then what? If the wall is perpendicular, then the top of the city is literally longer than the 1,500 miles! If the top of the city is held to 1,500 miles, then the bottom of the city is much shorter than the 1,500 miles, AND the shape would be more like a trapezoid with curved bases, being longer at the top, whichever is 1,500 miles!

Do you see the multiple problems with a "cube" that size on the surface of the earth?!

The pyramid must also face the same challenges of the curvature of the earth's surface, but it is FAR easier! One must simply allow the foundations to follow the curvature of the earth's surface. Y'know, the Scriptures never say it's exactly a pyramid, but it still makes better sense for the pinnacle to have the light that is the Lamb of God who rivals the sun in its brightness!

[OneLight]

Shalom, OneLight.

...

You fail to answer the question. How is the length, breadth and height equal at the top of a pyramid?

You're not being sensible. Don't think that this question is a "show stopper." First of all, it doesn't have to be. It just has to have the same height as its overall length and width. Second, don't think for one moment that a cube doesn't have the same problem!

Consider this carefully; it will require some thought, some imagination (or at least visualization using a globe), maybe a careful drawing, and some math:

IF the city was a TRUE cube, then the distance that one would travel across the earth's surface WILL BE DIFFERENT whether one is at the top of the cube or at the bottom of the cube! You've got to remember that the cube is even MORE susceptible to the curvature of the earth! We're still talking about a distance of 1,500 miles! Again, assuming that the dimensions of the New Earth will remain basically the same after the Fire, just as the present earth stayed basically the same as the antediluvian earth after the Flood, we are talking about a distance that covers 1,500 mi / 24,902 mi x 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees! Imagine a cut-away view of the earth with the city sitting on its surface. Then, we would have a pie wedge from the center of the earth to each side of the city (actually the center gates on opposite sides of the city) that measures 21.685 degrees at the center of the earth! THAT'S A HUGE ARC! If we were to connect the two points (the two gates) with a straight line, it would pass THROUGH the earth to a depth of 3963.3 mi - 3963.3 mi cos (10.8425 degrees) = 70.75 miles deep! So, you have to ask yourself: IS the city truly a cube dipping down into the earth until it is 70.75 miles deep in the middle? OR does the city's base follow the curvature of the earth?

Now, extend that wedge until it is 1,500 miles above the curved surface of the earth. The edges of this wedge would be perpendicular to the earth's surface at each gate, but the cube would be 10.8425 degrees slanted toward the city! Furthermore, the first foundation of the city would also slope downward into the earth (if it goes down to 70.75 miles below sea level) at that 10.8425 degrees from the "level" surface of the earth at those gates! Can you see the difficulty?

Let's assume for a moment that the city's base follows the curvature of the earth (which it probably should): Does that mean that the TOP of the cube also follows the curvature of the earth to keep the height consistent? If so, then how is it a "cube?!" Furthermore, how does one measure the height of the city if the wall is slanted by 10.8425 degrees? Does one measure staight up vertically and then over to the top or does one measure straight up the slanted side and ... then what? If the wall is perpendicular, then the top of the city is literally longer than the 1,500 miles! If the top of the city is held to 1,500 miles, then the bottom of the city is much shorter than the 1,500 miles, AND the shape would be more like a trapezoid with curved bases, being longer at the top, whichever is 1,500 miles!

Do you see the multiple problems with a "cube" that size on the surface of the earth?!

The pyramid must also face the same challenges of the curvature of the earth's surface, but it is FAR easier! One must simply allow the foundations to follow the curvature of the earth's surface. Y'know, the Scriptures never say it's exactly a pyramid, but it still makes better sense for the pinnacle to have the light that is the Lamb of God who rivals the sun in its brightness!

That's the trouble with what you are saying, "it will require some thought, some imagination (or at least visualization using a globe), maybe a careful drawing, and some math". I prefer to stick with what scripture says and not try to complicate it with an imagination, a visualization, a drawing or math. Your whole assumption is based on your own understanding, not scripture. The same God who can take a person from point A to point B in an instant, Who can hold up the sides of a sea while His people pass through, Who can raise the dead, Who can feed thousands with a meal for one, can make this work perfectly as He states.

By the way, equal means equal ... top, bottom, side to side, makes no difference.

[gdemoss]

But, When ones puts all in or around 70 AD; It definately can be proved false. One MUST make Scripture anything but literal. When red is red, it is red. When 1000 years is 1000 years, it is 1000 years. When 1/4 of the earths population is destroyed, 1/4 is destroyed. When 1/3 of the earths population is destroyed, 1/3 is destroyed. Whenthe locust from the abyss last 5 months, they last 5 months.

In Christ

Montana Marv

How is one supposed to know when they are to understand something literally rather than spiritually? I have had issues with my understanding because of this very problem. How to explicitly know when the sea is simply water in large basins as opposed to the sea of humanity that knows not God? How do I know if the world to come will not have large bodies of water as in there was no more sea or if that text is actually saying that the whole earth is filled with the knowledge of God and there be no more living who has not this knowledge? I personally have difficulty discerning the two. When is wheat simply food that grows out of the ground and not the elect of God? Oil is oil instead of the anointing? Wine only wine instead of the Holy Spirit of God? When is a bow a bow of peace as in the rainbow and not a bow of war?

I have certain inner convictions about these things that lead me to believe a certain train of events is on the horizon and coming to pass in short order. I also understand that God himself said that he will send a delusion that those who love not the truth would believe a lie instead and be damned. All of these things like the New City Jerusalem are a part of that which is spoken of. Many times through out the bible Jerusalem is spoken of as the inhabitants themselves and not the land. One must have a concrete way of discerning when it is one or when it is the other. The New City Jerusalem being labeled a bride for her husband seems to speak to me as it does with personification. It is spoken of to have had a certain foundation and all that but even we as people have been called precious stones in Gods temple. Gold, silver and precious stones yet in Jerusalem the streets are paved with gold.

So what key do you use to understand the when what is what in the scripture?

Gary

Gary

What do you mean by Spiritually? A life lesson! Or some other factor. Just because someone does not know what the Scripture means, does not nesecerily mean it is literal or spiritual. We are unaware to a degree about God/Christ, that is why we must be given down to earth examples of what God/Christ is like (a rock, a good sheppard, a tree of life, a mother hen, the Father, a cleft in a rock, the cornerstone, the creator, the absolute authority)

Now back to being literal; if there are specific descriptions; location, time reference, numbers relating to something or other adjetives; I call this something literal. [Jonah being is the belly of a great fish for 3 days and 3 nights] If it a medipor, a word without a descriptions, this could still be literal or mediphor. If there is action put to a word, I would call the word literal before anything else.

The word "beast" could be a kingdom, or a person, or animals of the field. It all depends on the context of the subject matter. If it says 1/4 of all mankind are to die, I take this as literal (1/4, mankind, die). If it says that 1/3 of the sea turns to blood (or like blood), I take this as literal. If it says an army of 200 million come out of the East (army, 200 million, east), I take them all as literal. When they cross over the Euphrates River on dry land, I take this as literal. Christ will be coming down from heaven to earth on a White Horse, Literal.

Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike the nations, Mediphor. But it could be literal. His spoken Word.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Hi Marv,

When I speak of the various ways to interpret scripture, I speak of the same words meaning more than one thing or simply being metaphorical at times while literal other times. Abraham had a literal wife and concubine. We read about these literal lives of these two individuals. Later we learn that their lives were also allegory for the two covenants. I see many scriptures do this very same thing prophetically and many having spiritual or metaphorical meanings. I don't believe all of it will be fulfilled literally either. The rub lies in understanding which is the correct view or views of any given scripture. The only true way of understanding is through the Holy Spirit. May we all sanctify the Lord God in our hearts....

Gary

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, OneLight.

...

That's the trouble with what you are saying, "it will require some thought, some imagination (or at least visualization using a globe), maybe a careful drawing, and some math". I prefer to stick with what scripture says and not try to complicate it with an imagination, a visualization, a drawing or math. Your whole assumption is based on your own understanding, not scripture. The same God who can take a person from point A to point B in an instant, Who can hold up the sides of a sea while His people pass through, Who can raise the dead, Who can feed thousands with a meal for one, can make this work perfectly as He states.

By the way, equal means equal ... top, bottom, side to side, makes no difference.

And your assumption is based on ... ? What? Some "gut feeling?" Absurd. God gives us a brain for a reason! USE IT!

[Fez]

Shalom, OneLight.

...

That's the trouble with what you are saying, "it will require some thought, some imagination (or at least visualization using a globe), maybe a careful drawing, and some math". I prefer to stick with what scripture says and not try to complicate it with an imagination, a visualization, a drawing or math. Your whole assumption is based on your own understanding, not scripture. The same God who can take a person from point A to point B in an instant, Who can hold up the sides of a sea while His people pass through, Who can raise the dead, Who can feed thousands with a meal for one, can make this work perfectly as He states.

By the way, equal means equal ... top, bottom, side to side, makes no difference.

And your assumption is based on ... ? What? Some "gut feeling?" Absurd. God gives us a brain for a reason! USE IT!

Firstly, OneLight makes no assumption, he makes a statement that equal means equal, which is the same definition I have as equal.

Secondly, and far more importantly, you have just violated the TOS and directly insulted him, and you should apologize for your outburst.

[Montana Marv]

Rev 11:16 - The city was laid out like a square as long as it was wide. (This is the foundation, square) ; He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stradia in length, and as wide and high as long.

Only two conclusions: One, a pyramid. or Two, a cube. A pyramid is more stable.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Fez.

Shalom, OneLight.

...

That's the trouble with what you are saying, "it will require some thought, some imagination (or at least visualization using a globe), maybe a careful drawing, and some math". I prefer to stick with what scripture says and not try to complicate it with an imagination, a visualization, a drawing or math. Your whole assumption is based on your own understanding, not scripture. The same God who can take a person from point A to point B in an instant, Who can hold up the sides of a sea while His people pass through, Who can raise the dead, Who can feed thousands with a meal for one, can make this work perfectly as He states.

By the way, equal means equal ... top, bottom, side to side, makes no difference.

And your assumption is based on ... ? What? Some "gut feeling?" Absurd. God gives us a brain for a reason! USE IT!

Firstly, OneLight makes no assumption, he makes a statement that equal means equal, which is the same definition I have as equal.

Secondly, and far more importantly, you have just violated the TOS and directly insulted him, and you should apologize for your outburst.

Firstly, he DID make an assumption! He assumed that the city was in the shape of a cube! Apparently, you have, too! The Scriptures do not SAY that, however; therefore, it is an ASSUMPTION!

Secondly, I have NOT violated the TOS. I have simply said that he HAS a brain, but has chosen not to use it in this instance! We ALL do the same thing from time to time. He GAVE UP on the math; that's all! As a math teacher, I would have done the same thing to ANY of my students! Sometimes, people just need to be shown that they HAVE given up, but that the work is NOT outside of their reach! They just need to REACH! Once they realize that "it's easy," then they excel in ways that they didn't know was possible! I CARE about OneLight, just like I CARE about you! That's why I type so much! If I didn't care, I'd just give up, but I'm not willing to leave ANYONE behind who is seriously seeking the Truth!

Look, some things will be easy when it comes to understanding the Scriptures; some things will be harder to understand. All I'm asking is that someone give an EFFORT to understand when they're a little tougher, and not hide behind the statements, "God will reveal it all in due time" or "the Holy Spirit did not tell me that, so it must be false" or "I prefer to stick with what scripture says and not try to complicate it with an imagination, a visualization, a drawing or math." These are "COP OUTS," EXCUSES one makes to oneself and others when the going gets tough!

I don't believe that the visualization is out of the reach of ANYONE on this forum: Just make a "V" in the center of a sheet of paper and put a square in it about half the size of the "V" so that it is touching the "V" with two of its corners. Then, just make sure while you're drawing the square that it's fairly "level" with respect to the point of the "V" so that the distance from the point of the "V" to one of the square's touching corners is the same as the distance from the point of the "V" to the square's other touching corner. Then, if you have a compass, put the needle end of the compass on the point of the "V" and the pencil end of the compass on one of the touching corners of the square and drag it across to the other touching corner, making an arc.

What you've just drawn is a representation of the cross section of the earth and the cube city with respect to the earth's surface. It doesn't matter if it's accurate; a sketch will do! The point of the "V" represents the center of the earth, the New Earth; the arc represents the surface of the earth; the lines of the "V" represent the direction for "down" at the points where the arc crosses the "V"; and "down" is toward the point of the "V."

I wasn't even making anybody do the math! I did the math for whoever could receive it!

If one doesn't have a compass, a string tied to one's pencil (as close to the point of the pencil as possible) and held to the point of the "V" with one's finger will do. Just pinch down the string to the point of the "V" so that the string doesn't move away from the point or slip when one is pulling the string taut. Put the point of the pencil on one of the touching corners of the square, hold the pencil as straight up and down as possible, and draw the arc to the other touching corner, keeping the string taut all the time.

Now, for the pyramid that has the same height as the length, simply draw two more lines: Find the center of the top of the square by either measuring the width of the square at the top and dividing it by two and measuring out to the middle, or "guestimate" the center of the line, if you're good with with mentally dividing a distance in half. Then, draw a straight line from this center point down to one of the touching corners of the square. Finally, draw a second, straight line from the center of the top to the other touching corner of the square. The triangle that you've just formed represents a cut-away view of the pyramid. The triangle's height is the same as the length of the bottom of the square, and that is ALL that the Scriptures give us about the height or the shape!

Montana Marv is right on both accounts. The two basic shapes that fit the facts are the pyramid and the cube. And, a triangle is ALWAYS more stable than a square! Squares can be "pushed over" into the shape of a rhombus, but you can't do that to a triangle without breaking one of its sides. That's why so many triangles are incorporated into buildings and bridges. Even a gate will have a cross beam that divides the rectangle of the gate into two more stable triangles.

Thirdly, English versions of a passage are nebulous and varied; some do a good job of translating the Greek, others not so much. So, here is the Greek of this one verse:

Apokalupsis 21:16

16 Kai hee polis tetragoonos keitai kai to meekos autees hoson kai to platos. Kai emetreesen teen polin too kalamoo epi stadioon doodeka chiladoon, to meekos kai to platos kai to hupsos autees isa estin.

16 Kai = 16 And

hee = the

polis = city

tetragoonos = four-cornered

keitai = lies-outstretched

kai = and

to = the

meekos = length

autees = of-it

hoson = like/as

kai = also

to = the

platos. = width.

Kai = And

emetreesen = he-measured

teen = the

polin = city

too = with-the

kalamoo = reed

epi = upon

stadioon = stadii/furlongs

doodeka = twelve

chiladoon, = thousands,

to = the

meekos = length

kai = and

to = the

platos = width

kai = and

to = the

hupsos = height

autees = of-it

isa = equal

estin. = are.

16 And the city four-cornered lies-outstretched and the length of-it like/as also the width. And he-measured the city with-the reed upon stadii/furlongs twelve thousands, the length and the width and the height of-it equal are.

16 And the city lies outstretched four-cornered and the length of it as also the width. And he measured the city with the reed down to (or just over) twelve thousand stadii or furlongs, the length and the width and the height of it are equal.

And just one more little tidbit: The "golden reed" (Greek: kalamos chruseos) used to measure this city is NOT a yardstick or some other sort of measuring stick; it's a THEODOLITE or surveyor's TRANSIT! You wouldn't really expect someone to measure 1,500 MILES with a yardstick, would you, especially UPWARD?

[Fez]

And your assumption is based on ... ? What? Some "gut feeling?" Absurd. God gives us a brain for a reason! USE IT!

Firstly, he DID make an assumption! He assumed that the city was in the shape of a cube! Apparently, you have, too! The Scriptures do not SAY that, however; therefore, it is an ASSUMPTION!

I find your tone argumentative and sarcastic. Capitals denote shouting on any forum, something you well know.

You violated the TOS, please don't do it again.

[Bold Believer]

Retro, I've always understood/been taught that pyramids are occultic. The Egyptians used them; they were certainly no paragons of correct religion. That's one reason I don't buy the pyramid, in fact, it's THE reason. The cube analogy makes more sense. But, since the cube is actually descriptive of the New Jerusalem, and in Scripture, Jesus speaks of believers as being a city set on a hill (like Jerusalem on Mt. Zion) that's how I understand New Jerusalem...as the resurrected Believers of all ages.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Fez.

And your assumption is based on ... ? What? Some "gut feeling?" Absurd. God gives us a brain for a reason! USE IT!

Firstly, he DID make an assumption! He assumed that the city was in the shape of a cube! Apparently, you have, too! The Scriptures do not SAY that, however; therefore, it is an ASSUMPTION!

I find your tone argumentative and sarcastic. Capitals denote shouting on any forum, something you well know.

You violated the TOS, please don't do it again.

I've been wrestling with this for a while now, and the Ruach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) will not give me peace about this until I've made this right. You are right; I was being too argumentative and sarcastic. Although I will often use capitals for emphasis, I admit that it could have been mistaken for shouting, and had I been talking to OneLight in person, I may have raised my voice in reality, too. What's worse is that I was treating a brother in a condescending way and treating the Ruach haQodesh within him the same way in the process.

I did this publicly in this thread; so, I make this apology publicly in this thread as well:

...

You fail to answer the question. How is the length, breadth and height equal at the top of a pyramid?

That's the trouble with what you are saying, "it will require some thought, some imagination (or at least visualization using a globe), maybe a careful drawing, and some math". I prefer to stick with what scripture says and not try to complicate it with an imagination, a visualization, a drawing or math. Your whole assumption is based on your own understanding, not scripture. The same God who can take a person from point A to point B in an instant, Who can hold up the sides of a sea while His people pass through, Who can raise the dead, Who can feed thousands with a meal for one, can make this work perfectly as He states.

By the way, equal means equal ... top, bottom, side to side, makes no difference.

I have quoted your post with hopes of getting your attention only.

Shalom, OneLight.

I do apologize for being rude to you and the Holy Spirit within you. I apologize for insulting you and for "shouting" at you. I'm truly sorry for mistreating you as a brother in the Messiah, and I'll do my best not to do it again, not to you or to anyone else.

Shalom, again, Fez.

And, to you, too, brother, I apologize for being sarcastic and combative and for violating the TOS in this way, too. I am sorry, and I won't do it again with the LORD'S help.