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MISCONCEPTION: The Seven Year Tribulation


rollinTHUNDER

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More alien space bats theories. It is impossible to separate a period of 7 years (the last portion of Daniel's 70th week) into two periods of time with 2000 plus years in between. It defies logic, and if God is anything, He is a God of logic. Everything God does makes sense to Him, and He is the only one to whom He has to make sense.

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I'm very wary of anyone who claims "new revelations."

I certainly can't blame you for feeling that way. It caught me by surprise when I first read it, too. But it was my editor who wrote the teaser on the back cover. I wasn't even allowed a say in that. New revelations sounds a little strong, but I do believe it's an accurate description nevertheless, because of a major discovery of something that has been completely overlooked for many centuries. And then there are several other nuggets hidden in the parables that have been missed as well.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it.

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More alien space bats theories. It is impossible to separate a period of 7 years (the last portion of Daniel's 70th week) into two periods of time with 2000 plus years in between. It defies logic, and if God is anything, He is a God of logic. Everything God does makes sense to Him, and He is the only one to whom He has to make sense.

Impossible, that's a stretch if I've ever seen one. Just because someone may not be able to understand a particular concept, does not mean that it is impossible.

Daniel 9:25-27

Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

[26]And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

It's very easy to see that Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks (483 yrs) in verses (25 & 26) above. But in verse (27) another possibility opens up. If the Messiah was cut off after 69 weeks and the Romans came some forty years or so later and destroyed the city and santuary, then who is the (he) in verse (27) confirming another covenant for seven years? It sure wasn't Christ, because He never made a seven year covenant with anyone. The covenant He made with those of us who believe is an everlasting eternal covenant. So who is the (he) in verse (27)?

Do you think it's possible that Christ might have given hints that someone else would be coming in His place?

Matthew 24:23-26

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

[25] Behold, I have told you before.

[26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

John 5:43

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

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What seven year covenant? The length of the covenant is never stated. That is where gross errors enter in, when people insert things into the text that are not there. The 'He' is Jesus. The covenant confirmed was I believe the New Covenant (Heb 8:10 and 10:16), the covenant made after those days by which he would remember their sins no more.

Jesus was being facetious in Jn 5:43. Jews considered a name authority, So when Jesus says he comes in His Father's name, He means God's authority. So when Jesus says if 'another' were to come in his own (human) authority, the Jews would receive Him, that's an indictment upon their faithlessness.

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Don't new revelations come to us through mankind? God used human prophets and apostles in His book.

I do not know rollinTHUNDER nor anything about him except that from all appearance he is a Christian, so

I believe it is entirely possible that God might use him as a vessel to reveal His Word.

From time to time we do seem to get some more advanced information that helps our understanding.

Could this be one of those moments?

Has anyone here read his book? I am curious as to its contents.

Perhaps one day I will be able to read this book and the one written by Leonard, both are Worthy authors.

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More alien space bats theories. It is impossible to separate a period of 7 years (the last portion of Daniel's 70th week) into two periods of time with 2000 plus years in between. It defies logic, and if God is anything, He is a God of logic. Everything God does makes sense to Him, and He is the only one to whom He has to make sense.

I would agree in a certain sense, God is a God of logic, however, there is a serious problem with pushing this sort of reasoning because human logic and reasoning is flawed by sin. So, in essence, what you would be saying is "God conforms to my (possibly flawed) viewpoint of Him", which is not a good attitude to have. When you say "It defies logic", it would be more correct to say "It defies my logic or my way of looking at things". There are many, I repeat, many aspects of the spiritual world and God that we with all our human logic and understanding cannot fully comprehend while still in this mortal form:

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

1 Corinthians 13:12

God may not (and often will not) make sense to us, but that is simply because of our flawed natures. That is why, as believers, servants, and students of the Most High we should look to God as such - "Not to what I think you are but to what you know yourself to be".

Edited by AlexanderJ
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What seven year covenant? The length of the covenant is never stated. That is where gross errors enter in,

[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

that one week is 7 years long

Well, I see where you have made one of your mistakes Daniel, an easy one to make. It is the week that is a seven, not the covenant. The covenant's length and purpose are not mentioned. Only that Messiah will confirm it during the one week. Messiah causes sacrifice and oblation to cease at the halfway point of the 70th week. How? By his atoning death and subsequent resurrection. The sacrifices and oblations no longer are efficacious (effective against sin) because the actual has come to replace forever the type and shadow.

You also write:

"This thread is misleading and false. Daniel's 70th week is the final 7 years before Christs return to earth. You say the thread is misleading and false, then add your own falsehood to it, compounding the problem. Daniel's 70th week is not the final 7 years. There was much to come after it.

Daniels 70th week is a 7 year time period (correct) with a 7 year peace treaty with Israel and her enemies that guranteees peace & security for Israel (utterly false, the covenant is never said to be a peace treaty, nor is there any mention of peace and security in the text) and the midpoint in that 7 year period the man of sin, son of perdition , the man of lawlessness breaks the treaty and starts killing Jews in the area of Judea ,,which is why scricpture tells them to flee to the wilderness /mountains and do not spend time going to get things from their houses ,,if they do they will die ,,it is that urgent, it takes place by surprise, the son of perdition , the man of lawlessness goes into the temple stops the sacrifices , proclaims to the world that he is messiah , he claims to be God and demands that all people worldwide worship him , he sets up an image that can be accessed worldwide; if they refuse to woirship him they will be executed and die ...shortly after this begins the wrath of God takes place , the last half of the 7 year period is Great tribulation leading into Gods wrath on all inhabitants of earth for rejecting Christ and refusing to accept Christ as savoir , so bad that if Jesus did not return then all flesh would die ,(For God's sake man, l wish you would learn proper English. This run on nightmare makes no sense at all. The man of sin is never mentioned here, at all. Period. It's not in the text. You have inserted it, making a mess of the text.

but at the very end of the 7 year period Jesus does return to save Israel from total destruction and destroys all of Israels enemies , Jesus starts his 1000 year reign ,,,the saints that return with Jesus are His Kingdom that rule and reign with Him for the 1000 year time period , during the 1000 years satan is bound in the pit totally unable to deceive the nations , then near the end of the 1000 years he is loosed to deceive the nations and all that satan is able to deceive and follow him get thrown into the lake of fire forever,,,then the restoration of all things happens and the planet becomes like the Garden of Eve and only followers of Christ are on earth and are Gods family and thus begins all things new for eternity ,,sin will never again exist for Gods family , God will once again walk on earth with his family because sin will no longer separate God from his family

More mish-mash and confusion. None of the things you write here are in the text. They are not even alluded to in the text. When you comment on a text...STICK TO THE TEXT.

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BB

You stated above: Quote: Well, I see where you have made one of your mistakes Daniel, an easy one to make. It is the week that is a seven, not the covenant. The covenant's length and purpose are not mentioned. Only that Messiah will confirm it during the one week. Messiah causes sacrifice and oblation to cease at the halfway point of the 70th week. How? By his atoning death and subsequent resurrection. The sacrifices and oblations no longer are efficacious (effective against sin) because the actual has come to replace forever the type and shadow.

You state that the covenant's length and purpose are not mentioned, YET, you say HOW; By his atoning death and resurrection. (Which is the Purpose) If it's purpose is not given, How do you back up what you said. There is no Scriptural evidence that Christ made any covenant immediately after His Baptism, and thus 3 1/2 years later he died. And thus one cannot tie Christ to the "He shall confirm a covenant", it is not there.

You also state the the covenants length is not mentioned; But then you say that it is to Replace Forever. You are contridicting yourself.

Scripture says: he shall confrim a covenant with may FOR (how long) One Seven. The two are tied together. This "he" does not refer to Christ, for He made no such covenant. Then if He did, which part of His ministry did He make it and what specific Scripture will back up this covenant. For it better fall within your timeline.

In Christ

Montana Marv

Edited by Montana Marv
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What seven year covenant? The length of the covenant is never stated. That is where gross errors enter in,

[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

that one week is 7 years long

Well, I see where you have made one of your mistakes Daniel, an easy one to make. It is the week that is a seven, not the covenant. The covenant's length and purpose are not mentioned. Only that Messiah will confirm it during the one week. Messiah causes sacrifice and oblation to cease at the halfway point of the 70th week. How? By his atoning death and subsequent resurrection. The sacrifices and oblations no longer are efficacious (effective against sin) because the actual has come to replace forever the type and shadow.

You also write:

"This thread is misleading and false. Daniel's 70th week is the final 7 years before Christs return to earth. You say the thread is misleading and false, then add your own falsehood to it, compounding the problem. Daniel's 70th week is not the final 7 years. There was much to come after it.

Daniels 70th week is a 7 year time period (correct) with a 7 year peace treaty with Israel and her enemies that guranteees peace & security for Israel (utterly false, the covenant is never said to be a peace treaty, nor is there any mention of peace and security in the text) and the midpoint in that 7 year period the man of sin, son of perdition , the man of lawlessness breaks the treaty and starts killing Jews in the area of Judea ,,which is why scricpture tells them to flee to the wilderness /mountains and do not spend time going to get things from their houses ,,if they do they will die ,,it is that urgent, it takes place by surprise, the son of perdition , the man of lawlessness goes into the temple stops the sacrifices , proclaims to the world that he is messiah , he claims to be God and demands that all people worldwide worship him , he sets up an image that can be accessed worldwide; if they refuse to woirship him they will be executed and die ...shortly after this begins the wrath of God takes place , the last half of the 7 year period is Great tribulation leading into Gods wrath on all inhabitants of earth for rejecting Christ and refusing to accept Christ as savoir , so bad that if Jesus did not return then all flesh would die ,(For God's sake man, l wish you would learn proper English. This run on nightmare makes no sense at all. The man of sin is never mentioned here, at all. Period. It's not in the text. You have inserted it, making a mess of the text.

but at the very end of the 7 year period Jesus does return to save Israel from total destruction and destroys all of Israels enemies , Jesus starts his 1000 year reign ,,,the saints that return with Jesus are His Kingdom that rule and reign with Him for the 1000 year time period , during the 1000 years satan is bound in the pit totally unable to deceive the nations , then near the end of the 1000 years he is loosed to deceive the nations and all that satan is able to deceive and follow him get thrown into the lake of fire forever,,,then the restoration of all things happens and the planet becomes like the Garden of Eve and only followers of Christ are on earth and are Gods family and thus begins all things new for eternity ,,sin will never again exist for Gods family , God will once again walk on earth with his family because sin will no longer separate God from his family

More mish-mash and confusion. None of the things you write here are in the text. They are not even alluded to in the text. When you comment on a text...STICK TO THE TEXT.

Here you are again showing your lack of knowledge and understanding but yet trying to criticize me ,,,,

You have a very serious problem with comprehending the simplicity of reading this very clear scripture

27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

that one week is 7 years long notice the key words ,then the same scripture goes on to say that in the midst of that week.....you simply do not understand what scripture plainly teaches

the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate

it is just as if you sign a lease and confirm it for 36 months ,,,plain as day

the covenant IS established for one week,,,a 7 year period ,,you need some serious study since you are unable to grasp what this simple phrase means ,

The rest is bible scripture , how many times does it take in proving you wrong before you begin to learn and understand ,,I have provided scipture that proves what I said is true and accurate many many times and you are always shown the error of your false thinking,,,

You cannot at all prove what I say wrong ,,it is your inability to see clearly

Every time I prove what I say to be correct, supported by scripture...proving you wrong ,,you simply vanish because you are not able to answer the questions I ask of you without admitting that what I show is accurate

You told me that when I said the term "man of sin" that it was not scripture that it was not even in the bible ,you claim I made it up ,,but when I proved to you that you are wrong and provided scripture proof , your pride got bent,,,you simply will not accept scripture proof , nor admit when you are wrong, even when scripture is given to you

You simply have a false teaching a false understanding,,,and too much pride to acknowledge your flawed thinking

Shall we do it again??

1. When I use the term 'the text' I mean whatever portion of Scripture is being spoken of, not the whole Bible. The term man of sin is not in Daniel 9:22-28, which is the body of text we're discussing.

2. I am pretty familiar with Daniel 9:22-28. It is a key eschatological Scripture.

3. All you are doing Daniel, is quoting the teachings of the pre-trib/pre-mil guys, not Scripture. You filter EVERYTHING through their teaching. Most people who believe in your understanding do just that. No offense, but you all sound like parrots. LaHaye, van Impe, and those guys say something, and everyone who believes their teaching quotes it. That's fine...IF you trust them. Personally, I've been there and after comparing their teaching to SCRIPTURE, they come up short. I don't trust their teaching, IT DOESN'T MATCH SCRIPTURE.

4. I suggest (after you learn to express yourself in English without half a page of run on sentence) that you learn to study FOR YOURSELF and not through J. N. Darby's (and Cy Scofield, and Harry Ironside, and Tim LaHaye, et al) filter. You will find that while I may not be 100% right, they are definitely incorrect as well...SERIOUSLY SO.

The original poster and I have disagreements as well, but he's right, the tribulation was NOT seven years. It WAS 3.5 years, 1260 days on a 360-day year calendar.

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BB

You stated above: Quote: Well, I see where you have made one of your mistakes Daniel, an easy one to make. It is the week that is a seven, not the covenant. The covenant's length and purpose are not mentioned. Only that Messiah will confirm it during the one week. Messiah causes sacrifice and oblation to cease at the halfway point of the 70th week. How? By his atoning death and subsequent resurrection. The sacrifices and oblations no longer are efficacious (effective against sin) because the actual has come to replace forever the type and shadow.

You state that the covenant's length and purpose are not mentioned, YET, you say HOW; By his atoning death and resurrection. (Which is the Purpose) If it's purpose is not given, How do you back up what you said. There is no Scriptural evidence that Christ made any covenant immediately after His Baptism, and thus 3 1/2 years later he died. And thus one cannot tie Christ to the "He shall confirm a covenant", it is not there.

You also state the the covenants length is not mentioned; But then you say that it is to Replace Forever. You are contridicting yourself.

Scripture says: he shall confrim a covenant with may FOR (how long) One Seven. The two are tied together. This "he" does not refer to Christ, for He made no such covenant. Then if He did, which part of His ministry did He make it and what specific Scripture will back up this covenant. For it better fall within your timeline.

In Christ

Montana Marv

The purpose and length of the covenant aren't mentioned IN THIS TEXT. Notice: he confirms a covenant. He doesn't make a covenant. The covenant is already established. Where? IN ANOTHER TEXT, specifically Jeremiah 31:34.

Furthermore, the Book of Hebrews tells us that Christ was the one who confirmed the new covenant in Heb 12:24, which I will give here to clarify:

It is written:

..."to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel."

Now look if you will at the word Mediator; it is the word mesites which means:

one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant

I cite also Heb 9:14 through chapter end, specifically verse 18, where it is written:

Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood.

It is the death of Christ which confirms the covenant. So when Daniel speaks of One who confirms a covenant, he is most definitely referring to the New Covenant, spoken of by Jeremiah.

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