Do we really go to heaven just as soon as we die?

[Massorite]

Going to Heaven

The early church did not believe in any way, shape, or form, the idea of going to heaven as soon as we die and if one would do some biblical research one would find that there is not one single scripture that speaks of going straight to heaven on the day we die and if the Bible doesn’t speak of it, then it is not. When we die we either go to the place of burning or we go to paradise and both of these realms exist in Hades.

“We maintain that after life has passed away you still remain in existence and anticipate a Day of Judgment. (In the Judgment), according to your deserts, (deeds) you are assigned to misery or to bliss. Either way, it will be forever. To be capable of this, your former substance must return to you the matter (body) and memory of the very same human being. For if you were not endowed with that sensitive bodily organization, you could fell neither good nor evil. And there would be no grounds for judgment without the presentation of the very person to whom the sufferings of judgment were due. Origen.

Another gifted Christian writer was considered to be one of the greatest Christian theologians of his time and before. His name was Origen and he was born in 185 or 186 A.D. Origen was not quit seventeen when a Christian persecution was begun by the Roman Emperor Septimius Severus. Origen lived during a turbulent time when there were periodic Christian persecutions during the reigns of Emperors Severus, Maximin, and Decius. Also during his time the Roman Empire was threatened with destabilization because of the barbarian invasions that were sweeping across Europe. He was born into great Christian persecution and he died sometime in 254 or 255, while still living under great Christian persecution. In Origin’s time, Christianity had not yet established a system of theological beliefs as a basis of orthodoxy so consequently there were several different sects and each one claiming to posses the truth about the Christian faith. The largest of the different sects were the Gnostics and it is the Gnostic doctrine that Origen fought hardest against. Since there were no non-Gnostic theological systems that were as successful as the Gnostics in his day, Origen formulated one. Because of Origin’s his works and the works of many other wise theologians like him, much of what we believe today is a direct result of their efforts to keep paganism and false doctrinal teachings out of the body of Christ. However after these dedicated men had all passed away and the church became organized, there were several false doctrinal beliefs and many pagan rituals that crept back into the church. Men like Origen were instrumental in the fight against pagan worship and left field concepts like Gnosticism.

Like several other early church theologians Origen also wrote “Ignorant men (uneducated believers) and unbelievers suppose that our flesh is destroyed after death to such a degree that it retains no relic at all of its former substance. However, we who believe in its resurrection understand that only a change has been produced by death…. It will again be raised from the earth. And after this it will advance to the glory of a spiritual body according to the merits of the indwelling soul. We are to believe, then, that all this bodily substance will be brought into this condition. This will be when all things will be re-established into a state of unity and when God will be “all in all” And this result must be understood as being brought about, not suddenly but slowly [in process of time] and gradually.” It also seems that Origen contradicts himself. “The apostolic teaching is that there is to be a time of resurrection from the dead, when the body which now is sown in corruption will rise in incorruption; and when that which “is sown in dishonor will rise in glory.” We know now that the flesh will not rise from the grave just as it went into the grave and even if it did, changing into the glorified body on the way up to heaven accomplishes the same task. Anyway believing that the flesh will rise from the grave just before it changes into the glorified body is not eternally significant.

This belief shows that the believers of the early church not only did not believe in the ascension to heaven at the moment of death but also believed we went into the earth and stayed there until we will be called by Jesus to come forth from the grave. Again the early church got it right because there is not one single word in the bible that tells us that we will go to heaven immediately after the moment of death.

“We therefore believe that the body also rose. For even if it decays, it is not in the least bit destroyed. That is because the earth that receives its remains, will preserve them. They become like seed and are wrapped up in the richer part of the earth. Thereafter, they spring up and bloom. However, the body is not raised the same thing as it is now. Rather, it becomes pure and no longer corruptible. And to everybody, its own proper soul will be given again. But the unrighteous will receive their bodies unchanged. They will not be freed from suffering and disease. They will be unglorified, with all the ills in which they died. Hippolytus.

Today we know that when we die our body turns back into the dust from which God made it from and our spirit or breath of life which animates the body goes back to God where it came from. But what of the soul? What happens to the soul when our body is no longer function able and the spirit of life leaves the body? First of all the bible doesn’t speak one single word about what happens to the soul when we die and yet salvation is all about the soul. The soul is what will rise from the dead and stand before the throne of God as a multitude that no man can count and the living will change from the flesh to the glorified body and will also stand among the multitude.

Hippolytus was correct when he stated that the unrighteous will still suffer all of the pain and disease which the body suffers while still in the flesh but after one has been judged to be unworthy for the glorified body it will be the soul that suffers these things because the body dies daily and will not last forever but the soul can and will suffer for eternity. The Parable of the rich man and Lazarus is proof of that concept.

Besides, if everybody goes to heaven as soon as they die and all of the graves are empty, Who will Jesus raise from the grave if the graves are empty?

[AlexanderJ]

First of all the bible doesn’t speak one single word about what happens to the soul when we die and yet salvation is all about the soul.

Salvation is not "all about the soul". Our bodies, souls, and spirits all need to be saved and sanctified because they have all been tainted by sin.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23

The spirit can be saved:

....that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5:5

The body must be saved:

...Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Ephesians 5:23 (See also, Romans 8:23, Philippians 3:21)

The soul must be saved:

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Hebrews 10:39

Salvation is triune, just as God is triune. To say that one facet of salvation is more important than another would be like saying that a certain member of the Godhead is more important than another.

An interesting thing to note is that our present body, is as Paul puts it, "soulish", and that our ressurected self will be "spiritual" implying that while our present body is dominated by our soul, our ressurected body will be dominated by our spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural (Gr. psuchetikon, or "soulish") body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (again, Gr. psuchetikon, or "soulish"); and afterward that which is spiritual.

[Guest]

Besides, if everybody goes to heaven as soon as they die and all of the graves are empty, Who will Jesus raise from the grave if the graves are empty?

Amen~!

[Tim7]

2Cr 5:6 KJV - Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Cr 5:7 KJV - (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

2Cr 5:8 KJV - We are confident, [i say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

To say we dont go to heaven when we die is to say Jesus died for noting, but Jesus died to give us access to heaven when we pass from this body. Paradise was only a temporary holding area for all those who followed after God from the beginning of time up till Jesus fulfilled His obedience on the cross. When He died He spent three days and three nights in the belly of the earth to bring them out and lead them to heaven...that fulfilled the prophetic word about hell enlarging itself. Another verse in the new testament speaks how He shall come back with those dead in Christ...meaning that they are asleep in the body but they are very much alive in the Spirit in the presence of Jesus in heaven. The exciting part comes when all the spirits of the dead in Christ shall be reunited with their bodies at the sounding of that great trumpet.

Mat 12:40 KJV - For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Eph 4:9 KJV - (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Eph 4:10 KJV - He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Isa 5:14 KJV - Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

1Th 4:13-18 KJV - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Blessings, Tim

Edited November 28, 2012 by Tim7

[Guest shiloh357]

Besides, if everybody goes to heaven as soon as they die and all of the graves are empty, Who will Jesus raise from the grave if the graves are empty?

He is raising their bodies from the grave, not their spirits. So their graves are not empty as their bodies remain in the ground. Where did you get the idea that the graves are empty if everyone goes to heaven when they die?

You are operating from the fallacy that earlier doctrines mean more accurate. There is a erroneous notion among some that the closer you get to the ancient apostles and to the early church, the closer you get to the original "correct" theology or doctrinal views that is simply not true. Heresies abounded in the early church and this is recorded among the early church historians. You really cannot turn to the early church fathers for correct doctrine, as they held to many heresies and persecuted the Jews as well.

Jesus, in dealing with the Saducees on the issue of the after life quotes from Exodus 3 where God told Moses "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." He did not say, "I WAS the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, meaning that God is the God of the living. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still alive according to Jesus, proving that their spirits were not in the grave but were alive and animate. Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus and talked with Jesus on the Mount of Tranfiguration, meaning that they were still alive and their spirits were not in their graves.

[allofgrace]

Why did Paul make these statements in this passage? What does he mean when in v23 he says he has a desire to depart and be with Christ? Is Christ in the grave or in heaven? Phil 1:21-23 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

What does Paul mean by this passage when he concludes that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Again, is Christ in the grave or in heaven. In both of these passages I've shown that Paul desires to go be with Christ, so the point is, where is Jesus now? 2 Cor 5:6-8 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Not to mention, Jesus has promised that He will never leave us nor forsake us, if the believer does not directly to heaven, do you suppose that Jesus is with them in the grave? Now I ask you, show some passages that says the believer does not go to be with the Lord when they die.

And to say that the early NT believers did not believe that the saved went directly to be with the Lord is proven incorrect because the scripture teaches contrary to that idea. The verses I have shown tells us the Holy Spirit had Paul to tell all believers that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. That is early enough for me. And in 1 Thess 4:13-18 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. The principle is always the same, the saints will be with the Lord.

[OldShep]

For me I have Faith that once this body has passed, I will be with the Lord!.

I choose to believe the word of God found in the Bible.

The OP. is..from the book:

The Jerusalem Church: Learn Not the Way of the Heathen

By Robert Cook

[Massorite]

2Cr 5:6 KJV - Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Cr 5:7 KJV - (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

2Cr 5:8 KJV - We are confident, [i say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

To say we dont go to heaven when we die is to say Jesus died for noting, but Jesus died to give us access to heaven when we pass from this body. Paradise was only a temporary holding area for all those who followed after God from the beginning of time up till Jesus fulfilled His obedience on the cross. When He died He spent three days and three nights in the belly of the earth to bring them out and lead them to heaven...that fulfilled the prophetic word about hell enlarging itself. Another verse in the new testament speaks how He shall come back with those dead in Christ...meaning that they are asleep in the body but they are very much alive in the Spirit in the presence of Jesus in heaven. The exciting part comes when all the spirits of the dead in Christ shall be reunited with their bodies at the sounding of that great trumpet.

Mat 12:40 KJV - For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Eph 4:9 KJV - (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Eph 4:10 KJV - He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Isa 5:14 KJV - Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

1Th 4:13-18 KJV - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Blessings, Tim

First of all I see that no one has been able to show any scripture that tells us that we will go to heaven as soon as we doie.

"We are confident, [i say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord". The words "Willing Rather" mean just what they say. Which is to say that we would be "willing rather" to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord and has nothing to do wth telling us that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" as so many miss quote and take out of context just as You have done.

"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him." This verse actually says that "those who sleep in Jesus" is present tence as in "those who sleep in Jesus as of the time of the writing of this scripture" which was some 64 years after the death of Christ. Which means that those who sleep in Christ whom Paul was speaking of had not gone o heaven but were still sleeping in Christ doing just as Christ had done which was to first decend. So to say that we go to heaven as soon as we die is at oods with this verse because we would no longer be sleeping in Jesus but would enjoying the pleasures of heaven.

You should re-read what I said. I said that we don't go to heaven as soon as we die. I never said that we will never go to heaven. Please don't put into my mouth what I didn't say.

" Paradise was only a temporary holding area for all those who followed after God from the beginning of time up till Jesus fulfilled His obedience on the cross." Please show me some scripture that says Paradise was closed down or emptied". Because there are none.

When He died He spent three days and three nights in the belly of the earth to bring them out andWhen He died He spent three days and three nights in the belly of the earth to bring them out and"When He died He spent three days and three nights in the belly of the earth to bring them out and lead them to heaven." Show me some scripture that says " Jesus lead all who were in Paradise back to heaven with him when he acended into heaven. Because Acts ch. 1 say that only Jesus acended into heaven when he went and there is no scripture that I could find that says any different.

[Massorite]

First of all the bible doesn’t speak one single word about what happens to the soul when we die and yet salvation is all about the soul.

Salvation is not "all about the soul". Our bodies, souls, and spirits all need to be saved and sanctified because they have all been tainted by sin.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:23

The spirit can be saved:

....that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1 Corinthians 5:5

The body must be saved:

...Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

Ephesians 5:23 (See also, Romans 8:23, Philippians 3:21)

The soul must be saved:

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.Hebrews 10:39

Salvation is triune, just as God is triune. To say that one facet of salvation is more important than another would be like saying that a certain member of the Godhead is more important than another.

An interesting thing to note is that our present body, is as Paul puts it, "soulish", and that our ressurected self will be "spiritual" implying that while our present body is dominated by our soul, our ressurected body will be dominated by our spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural (Gr. psuchetikon, or "soulish") body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural (again, Gr. psuchetikon, or "soulish"); and afterward that which is spiritual.

While we are alive and walking on this earth we have a soul and a spirit and a body. But according to scripture when we die the spirit "breath of life" goes vback to God where it came from and our bodies turn back to the dust from which it came from. So the only part of us that lives on forever is our Soul which is everything that we are.

"An interesting thing to note is that our present body, is as Paul puts it, "soulish", and that our ressurected self will be "spiritual" implying that while our present body is dominated by our soul, our ressurected body will be dominated by our spirit." I never run down the road of "the bible implies this or the scripture leads us to believe this or the bible appears to say this or that"

because that kind of quoting in my humble opionion is a very inacurate way to interpret the word of God and can lead to some very bad false doctrinal teaching. Besides having a spiritual body is also what the glorfied body is. But we will still be able to feel pleasure or pain depending on where go when we are judged.

"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.Hebrews 10:39". Just as the scripture says "Salvation is all about the soul."

[Massorite]

For me I have Faith that once this body has passed, I will be with the Lord!.

I choose to believe the word of God found in the Bible.

The OP. is..from the book:

The Jerusalem Church: Learn Not the Way of the Heathen

By Robert Cook

And there is no reason to believe that when we die we won't be in the presents of the Lord. I am simply saying that we will not be going straight to heaven the moment we die but will go to heaven when Jesus come to raise us from the grave. Read the Parable of Lazorus and the rich man.