Sevenseas Posted December 11, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 11, 2012 ON a side note and not directed to anyone in particular, it is my observation that people are quick to defend that which they practice themself and quick to disagree with what they find is threat because it is not in agreement with what they believe Shoot me...that's fine I'm actually a bit of an impartial observer myself....I suppose that is disagreeable also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted December 11, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Author Share Posted December 11, 2012 First, Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to post. I have enjoyed reading through all your posts. 2nd, sevenseas, yes, you do know the thread I was referancing in my first post. I know others have tried to, but I think I get what your trying to say. Would you mind trying to explain the difference between new revelation and illumination a little more. How it affects the gifts in operation a little more. Thank you 3rd, Most everyone keeps telling me the canon is closed. No new revelation. I think the No new revelation has greater conseguence than people are realizing. ( Or I just don't understand). No new revelation means no prophecy, no dreams or visions. Besides Isn't the bible the rule of thumb. I mean, God put so much in the word. All of it important. But not the canon is closed. Why was that left out? What scripture.....Where in the bible does it say that the canon is closed? Is this scripture or is this opinion? I've posted responses to some verses being used. I have yet to get a response to all of it. take post #21 for example. Where in the bible does it say the canon is closed. If it's not in the bible, then why do we say, the canon is closed? Thank you again to all and may God Bless you Firestormx Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted December 11, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 11, 2012 3rd, Most everyone keeps telling me the canon is closed. No new revelation. I think the No new revelation has greater conseguence than people are realizing. ( Or I just don't understand). No new revelation means no prophecy, no dreams or visions. Besides Isn't the bible the rule of thumb. I mean, God put so much in the word. All of it important. But not the canon is closed. Why was that left out? What scripture.....Where in the bible does it say that the canon is closed? Is this scripture or is this opinion? I've posted responses to some verses being used. I have yet to get a response to all of it. take post #21 for example. Where in the bible does it say the canon is closed. If it's not in the bible, then why do we say, the canon is closed? Thank you again to all and may God Bless you Firestormx Joseph Like the numbering Joseph. From personal study and a course I took… Source: Lea, Thomas D., and David Alan Black. The New Testament: Its Background and Message. Second Edition. Nashville: Broadman and Holman, 2003. I. TERMS A. “Bible” from Greek biblos (“book”) B. New “Testament” = New “Covenant” C. “canon” from Greek kanon (“rod,” “ruler,” “rule”) II. CANONIZATION OF THE NT A. God guided it. B. The process was slow. 1. Communication was slow 2. Many non-canonical writings to test 3. Some canonical writings were slow to be accepted C. Canonization was informal--the church approved what godly Christians accepted. D. Three informal tests of inspiration: 1. Apostolicity (eyewitness) 2. Orthodoxy (sound doctrine) 3. Universality (wide application) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenEagle Posted December 11, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 764 Topics Per Day: 0.18 Content Count: 7,626 Content Per Day: 1.81 Reputation: 1,559 Days Won: 44 Joined: 10/03/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 11, 2012 3rd, Most everyone keeps telling me the canon is closed. No new revelation. I think the No new revelation has greater conseguence than people are realizing. ( Or I just don't understand). No new revelation means no prophecy, no dreams or visions. Besides Isn't the bible the rule of thumb. I mean, God put so much in the word. All of it important. But not the canon is closed. Why was that left out? What scripture.....Where in the bible does it say that the canon is closed? Is this scripture or is this opinion? I've posted responses to some verses being used. I have yet to get a response to all of it. take post #21 for example. Where in the bible does it say the canon is closed. If it's not in the bible, then why do we say, the canon is closed? Thank you again to all and may God Bless you Firestormx Joseph (Cont.) III. THREE EVIDENCES OF A DEVELOPING CANON A. Early Christian writers using the canonical writings B. Opinions of church councils or individual Christians about canonical writings 1. heretic Marcion’s canon, AD 140 2. Muratorian canon, AD 170 3. Eusebius in Church History, AD 320 4. Athanasius letter, AD 367 5. 3rd Council of Carthage, AD 397 6. Council of Hippo, AD 419 C. Contents of certain ancient manuscripts. 1. Codex Sinaiticus (AD 350) 2. Codex Vaticanus (AD 325) IV. TIME FRAME A. 1st century - Canon is open. 1. All NT books & epistles written 2. No concrete list yet. 3. Patristics quoted from NT writings, beginning with 1 Clement in AD 95. B. 2d–3d century - Canon is open 1. Much of NT quoted by Patristics early 2d century 2. Canon of Marcion, AD 140 3. Tatian’s Diatessaron (Gospel harmony) AD 170 C. 4th century - canon closed 1. Church historian Eusebius (270-340), Church History gave 4 groupings. 2. 367 AD - an Easter letter by Athanasius, lists all 27 books. 3. Council of Carthage (AD 397) & Council of Hippo (419) confirmed the 27 canonical books. V. ACCURACY OF THE NT A. NT has smallest % of textual errors of any ancient writing. 1. About 200,000 textual variants. 2. Scholars estimate it is ½ of 1% (.5%) of the NT. 3. So small as to be negligible. 4. None of this involves a doctrinal or historical truth. B. Most of the differences are in spelling, word order, & less important features. Hope this helps. God bless, GE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted December 11, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Author Share Posted December 11, 2012 3rd, Most everyone keeps telling me the canon is closed. No new revelation. I think the No new revelation has greater conseguence than people are realizing. ( Or I just don't understand). No new revelation means no prophecy, no dreams or visions. Besides Isn't the bible the rule of thumb. I mean, God put so much in the word. All of it important. But not the canon is closed. Why was that left out? What scripture.....Where in the bible does it say that the canon is closed? Is this scripture or is this opinion? I've posted responses to some verses being used. I have yet to get a response to all of it. take post #21 for example. Where in the bible does it say the canon is closed. If it's not in the bible, then why do we say, the canon is closed? Thank you again to all and may God Bless you Firestormx Joseph (Cont.) III. THREE EVIDENCES OF A DEVELOPING CANON A. Early Christian writers using the canonical writings B. Opinions of church councils or individual Christians about canonical writings 1. heretic Marcion’s canon, AD 140 2. Muratorian canon, AD 170 3. Eusebius in Church History, AD 320 4. Athanasius letter, AD 367 5. 3rd Council of Carthage, AD 397 6. Council of Hippo, AD 419 C. Contents of certain ancient manuscripts. 1. Codex Sinaiticus (AD 350) 2. Codex Vaticanus (AD 325) IV. TIME FRAME A. 1st century - Canon is open. 1. All NT books & epistles written 2. No concrete list yet. 3. Patristics quoted from NT writings, beginning with 1 Clement in AD 95. B. 2d–3d century - Canon is open 1. Much of NT quoted by Patristics early 2d century 2. Canon of Marcion, AD 140 3. Tatian’s Diatessaron (Gospel harmony) AD 170 C. 4th century - canon closed 1. Church historian Eusebius (270-340), Church History gave 4 groupings. 2. 367 AD - an Easter letter by Athanasius, lists all 27 books. 3. Council of Carthage (AD 397) & Council of Hippo (419) confirmed the 27 canonical books. V. ACCURACY OF THE NT A. NT has smallest % of textual errors of any ancient writing. 1. About 200,000 textual variants. 2. Scholars estimate it is ½ of 1% (.5%) of the NT. 3. So small as to be negligible. 4. None of this involves a doctrinal or historical truth. B. Most of the differences are in spelling, word order, & less important features. Hope this helps. God bless, GE Yes it does, thank you. I understand and agree that everything must line up to the word of God. Line upon line and precept upon precept. The Lord gave us his word so we would have a authority to look at. If something doesn't match up to the word, then we are to cast it away. We are to ignore it, and not accept it. If I said Jesus told me that we are only to use the bathroom 3 times a day. ( once everyone got done laughing) I would be told, that it is false doctrine and it does not line up to the word of God. I would be rebuked for teaching false doctrine and rightfully so. Because no such thing is found in scripture. So if it is not found anywhere in scripture that there is no new revelation, that the canon is closed, is this bible or tradition? That's where I'm at. People keep using the verses in Duet. , But if God said in Duet. not to add to scripture then we never should have had a book of joshua or any book that followed it. You can't say that those verses mean No scripture will ever be added, when after it was spoken and written in Duet. more scripture was added. Thats what I just can't seem to get around. Thanks for your concern and taking the time to post. Firestormx Joseph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Most everyone keeps telling me the canon is closed. No new revelation. I think the No new revelation has greater conseguence than people are realizing. ( Or I just don't understand). No new revelation means no prophecy, no dreams or visions. Besides Isn't the bible the rule of thumb. I mean, God put so much in the word. All of it important. But not the canon is closed. Why was that left out? What scripture.....Where in the bible does it say that the canon is closed? Is this scripture or is this opinion? I've posted responses to some verses being used. I have yet to get a response to all of it. take post #21 for example. Where in the bible does it say the canon is closed. If it's not in the bible, then why do we say, the canon is closed? I think the problem here is with what revelation is. The Bible is God's self-disclosure. It is His revelation of Himself. When we speak of revelation, we need to understand that the biblical concept of revelation has to do revealing who God is. It is the revealing of God's character and operations. People make use the word "revelation" in a generic sense to mean "spiritual knowledge/information." When you learn something new, when you gain fresh insight from Scripture, that is not revelation. That is "illumination." Revelation is the act of God revealing Himself to man and in the Old Testament God's means of self-disclosure was His prophets. In the New Testament, Jesus is the Revelation of who God is and how God operates. Everything you need to know about God is found in the Person of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the fullest possible expression/revelation of who God is and what God does. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (Heb 1:1-4) And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. (Mat 17:1-5) In both of these places, Jesus is shown to be God's final word to mankind. In these last days (that's today), has chosen to speak to us through His Son. In Matthew, when Jesus was on the Mount of Transfiguration, He was accompanied by Moses (who represented the law) and by Elijah (who represents the prophets). Peter wanted to make shrines for Jesus, Moses and Elijah, but God the Father spoke and commanded that we hear Jesus. Jesus is the fullfilment of the law and the prophets and He is the One to whom Moses and Elijah pointed. Jesus is the final revelation of God from God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted December 11, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Author Share Posted December 11, 2012 Most everyone keeps telling me the canon is closed. No new revelation. I think the No new revelation has greater conseguence than people are realizing. ( Or I just don't understand). No new revelation means no prophecy, no dreams or visions. Besides Isn't the bible the rule of thumb. I mean, God put so much in the word. All of it important. But not the canon is closed. Why was that left out? What scripture.....Where in the bible does it say that the canon is closed? Is this scripture or is this opinion? I've posted responses to some verses being used. I have yet to get a response to all of it. take post #21 for example. Where in the bible does it say the canon is closed. If it's not in the bible, then why do we say, the canon is closed? I think the problem here is with what revelation is. The Bible is God's self-disclosure. It is His revelation of Himself. When we speak of revelation, we need to understand that the biblical concept of revelation has to do revealing who God is. It is the revealing of God's character and operations. People make use the word "revelation" in a generic sense to mean "spiritual knowledge/information." When you learn something new, when you gain fresh insight from Scripture, that is not revelation. That is "illumination." Revelation is the act of God revealing Himself to man and in the Old Testament God's means of self-disclosure was His prophets. In the New Testament, Jesus is the Revelation of who God is and how God operates. Everything you need to know about God is found in the Person of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the fullest possible expression/revelation of who God is and what God does. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (Heb 1:1-4) And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. (Mat 17:1-5) In both of these places, Jesus is shown to be God's final word to mankind. In these last days (that's today), has chosen to speak to us through His Son. In Matthew, when Jesus was on the Mount of Transfiguration, He was accompanied by Moses (who represented the law) and by Elijah (who represents the prophets). Peter wanted to make shrines for Jesus, Moses and Elijah, but God the Father spoke and commanded that we hear Jesus. Jesus is the fullfilment of the law and the prophets and He is the One to whom Moses and Elijah pointed. Jesus is the final revelation of God from God. Thank you for your post. I find myself agreeing with what you said. However, As we draw closer to Christ, building our releationship with him, isn't more and more about him and who he is revealed to us. Isn't this still revelation about God as we draw closer and closer to Christ? What's the difference? If there is no more new revelation, wouldn't drawing closer to Christ be fuitle, since nothing about him or the father would ever be revealed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlessedByTheBest Posted December 11, 2012 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 631 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 2 Joined: 10/24/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 11, 2012 there is no scriptural support that specifically states the 66 books of the bible as canon is closed. the bible isn't one book, it's a series of them, and no particular book within it as a whole explicitly approves or denies any other. you are not going to find it. what you can know for sure, is that no matter how much attempted destruction or subversion evil theologians have attempted in their ploys and word-play trickery, the Word of God is absolute. no matter how many false gospels arose, and will arise, there will be men and women filled with the Holy Spirit to discern that which is of the Spirit, and that which is not. the early Church was proof of this. there are no conflicts in the canon and doctrines accepted from those times. honestly, what more is there to say after the hero of this planet, Jesus Christ? He will return, those who believe in Him will be victorious when He does. with that said, let us not rely on our own understanding or wisdom. we are to lean on Him, under the shade of history's greatest teacher. is the Comforter not convicting you of any doubts you may have concerning Scripture right now? our God is big like that. (quote-worthy) The Divine Author has Divine Authority. let us be reminded. could the Holy Spirit say the following and allow for the possibility of God's word to not be organized and sealed? 2 Timothy 3 3 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was. 10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. no, God's Holy Word goes beyond "common consensus". 2 Peter 1:16-21 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. be at peace brethren. His Word is True, and His Promises are Everlasting. love to you and God bless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 11, 2012 Share Posted December 11, 2012 Most everyone keeps telling me the canon is closed. No new revelation. I think the No new revelation has greater conseguence than people are realizing. ( Or I just don't understand). No new revelation means no prophecy, no dreams or visions. Besides Isn't the bible the rule of thumb. I mean, God put so much in the word. All of it important. But not the canon is closed. Why was that left out? What scripture.....Where in the bible does it say that the canon is closed? Is this scripture or is this opinion? I've posted responses to some verses being used. I have yet to get a response to all of it. take post #21 for example. Where in the bible does it say the canon is closed. If it's not in the bible, then why do we say, the canon is closed? I think the problem here is with what revelation is. The Bible is God's self-disclosure. It is His revelation of Himself. When we speak of revelation, we need to understand that the biblical concept of revelation has to do revealing who God is. It is the revealing of God's character and operations. People make use the word "revelation" in a generic sense to mean "spiritual knowledge/information." When you learn something new, when you gain fresh insight from Scripture, that is not revelation. That is "illumination." Revelation is the act of God revealing Himself to man and in the Old Testament God's means of self-disclosure was His prophets. In the New Testament, Jesus is the Revelation of who God is and how God operates. Everything you need to know about God is found in the Person of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the fullest possible expression/revelation of who God is and what God does. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. (Heb 1:1-4) And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. (Mat 17:1-5) In both of these places, Jesus is shown to be God's final word to mankind. In these last days (that's today), has chosen to speak to us through His Son. In Matthew, when Jesus was on the Mount of Transfiguration, He was accompanied by Moses (who represented the law) and by Elijah (who represents the prophets). Peter wanted to make shrines for Jesus, Moses and Elijah, but God the Father spoke and commanded that we hear Jesus. Jesus is the fullfilment of the law and the prophets and He is the One to whom Moses and Elijah pointed. Jesus is the final revelation of God from God. Thank you for your post. I find myself agreeing with what you said. However, As we draw closer to Christ, building our releationship with him, isn't more and more about him and who he is revealed to us. Isn't this still revelation about God as we draw closer and closer to Christ? What's the difference? If there is no more new revelation, wouldn't drawing closer to Christ be fuitle, since nothing about him or the father would ever be revealed? No, that would not be revelation. That would be illumination. You are talking about greater insight into what has already been revealed. Revelation about God is given to corporate humanity. Greater insight and wisdom into what has been revealed is what we call "illumination." Paul talks about the eyes of our hearts being enlightened. That is what happens when we learn more about God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firestormx Posted December 11, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,113 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 442 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/06/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/17/1975 Author Share Posted December 11, 2012 I thank all of you for your posts. I just find myself stuck it seems. Post #52 states where if your curious. I will continue to seek the lord on this and look forward to reading all of your posts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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