Limited Atonement

[Bold Believer]

The elect PROVE themselves by responding to the call. The MANY are called (all people), but few are chosen. The chosen show themselves so by responding favorably to the call. We don't know WHO the chosen are, therefore we must give the call to all as God leads. The reprobate show themselves for what THEY are by their response as well. The 'whomsoever believes' of John 3:16 are the responding elect. The reprobate are the rejectors.

[Guest shiloh357]

The elect PROVE themselves by responding to the call. The MANY are called (all people), but few are chosen. The chosen show themselves so by responding favorably to the call. We don't know WHO the chosen are, therefore we must give the call to all as God leads. The reprobate show themselves for what THEY are by their response as well. The 'whomsoever believes' of John 3:16 are the responding elect. The reprobate are the rejectors.

That presupposes that someone is "elect" before they respond to the call. There is no election of who will or will not be saved. I also don't see any dichotomy bewteen the chosen and the elect.

The whosoever in John 3:16 is everyone. Whosoever is an all inclusive term that doesn't refer to a specific group of "elect." If God had meant for John 3:16 to refer to a specific group of people, He would have worded it that way. You are trying to pencil in a meaning to that verse that it doesn't contain. The Gospel is for every man and woman, not a select pre-chosen group called "the elect."

You become the "elect" when you are saved. The term "elect" is always used in terms of a redeemed community, not in reference to unbelievers who have not come to Christ.

[Bold Believer]

The elect PROVE themselves by responding to the call. The MANY are called (all people), but few are chosen. The chosen show themselves so by responding favorably to the call. We don't know WHO the chosen are, therefore we must give the call to all as God leads. The reprobate show themselves for what THEY are by their response as well. The 'whomsoever believes' of John 3:16 are the responding elect. The reprobate are the rejectors.

That presupposes that someone is "elect" before they respond to the call. There is no election of who will or will not be saved. I also don't see any dichotomy bewteen the chosen and the elect.

The whosoever in John 3:16 is everyone. Whosoever is an all inclusive term that doesn't refer to a specific group of "elect." If God had meant for John 3:16 to refer to a specific group of people, He would have worded it that way. You are trying to pencil in a meaning to that verse that it doesn't contain. The Gospel is for every man and woman, not a select pre-chosen group called "the elect."

You become the "elect" when you are saved. The term "elect" is always used in terms of a redeemed community, not in reference to unbelievers who have not come to Christ.

The elect are written in the Book of Life from before time. The thing is that WE don't know who they are. The Gospel is available to be heard by all. Read Romans 9, then tell me you don't believe that God has chosen His elect. Man has NO ability to receive the gift on his own, because man is dead in sins. The Spirit enlightens and man responds.

[gdemoss]

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

[gdemoss]

The passage was written to those "In Christ" Gary, (Eph 1:1) Believers have all spiritual blessings in Heavenly places available to them, not the unsaved.

What about those not saved yet?

There is no scripture that supports any God picking and choosing who gets born again and avoids hell. God's will is that "NOBODY" perishes.

Jesus Is Lord.

Mike, I simply quoted a verse. You chose to believe what you wanted about my motive for doing such. Amazing isn't it. The verse I quoted simply shows that God did chose some before the foundation of the world for his purpose and those some were the ones that Paul was directly speaking about. I wasn't wishing to imply that it was all encompassing in any way, shape or form. The crux of the matter is seen in perfect versus permissive will of God as many have testified to there being two. The controversial topic one must deal with is 'if God can stop something from happening but doesn't, does that make God responsible for not stopping it?' I don't have an answer. This type of question is too great for me. If a man sitting in a restaurant with a gun in his jacket watches a thief come in and rob the place, killing two patrons in the process but holds his peace and finishes his meal before walking out, is he responsible for allowing the crime to be committed? Should he be held accountable for not doing something when he clearly could have? What if it could be proven that he had an absolute clear shot at the criminal prior to the killing of the patrons without any possibility that the criminal would accomplish his mission? Should such a man be demonized?

Now that I have said all that and opened up a can of worms, I must also say that there is much we do not know about righteousness, justice and God that keeps me from saying that I have an answer to all of it. God has said in his word that his people had limited the Holy One of Israel. God has shown that Satan can move him against one of his own without a cause (but of course you seem to find one when you read it and pin it on Job's fear). I simply don't have enough information to understand these things. They are to great for me. I simply have to conclude that God is righteous and just, and that in the end we will all understand much better than we do today. Either God could not save those from going to hell that do or he did not choose to save them. It is clear to me either way that God knew before he ever created anything that some would ultimately be lost.

The bible is clear that the blood of Christ is sufficient to pay the price for the sins of the whole world. It is equally as clear that Christ himself will judge who does and does not receive the atonement for sin and receive eternal life with him in glory. For this cause we each ought seek to have a good conscience before God and man as Luke wrote of Paul saying. With our limited understanding, let us seek to do good unto all and be made perfect in love that we might have boldness in the day of judgment as perfect love casts out fear.

[Guest ninhao]

.....Either God could not save those from going to hell that do or he did not choose to save them.

Hello Gary,

Or neither ?

Maybe God made the way clear for everyone to receive eternal life and left the choice to them. Maybe God made no choice in this matter.

It is clear to me either way that God knew before he ever created anything that some would ultimately be lost.

Yes this makes sense.

The bible is clear that the blood of Christ is sufficient to pay the price for the sins of the whole world. It is equally as clear that Christ himself will judge who does and does not receive the atonement for sin and receive eternal life with him in glory. For this cause we each ought seek to have a good conscience before God and man as Luke wrote of Paul saying. With our limited understanding, let us seek to do good unto all and be made perfect in love that we might have boldness in the day of judgment as perfect love casts out fear.

The atonement is sufficient for all but will only save those who apply the Blood of Christ through faith. ( applied the blood to their door posts ) . So Jesus did not apply this blood but the man did?

I hope this isn't incorrect.

[gdemoss]

.....Either God could not save those from going to hell that do or he did not choose to save them.

Hello Gary,

Or neither ?

Maybe God made the way clear for everyone to receive eternal life and left the choice to them. Maybe God made no choice in this matter.

What I said still stands. Though God made a way, he let people choose life or death. In doing so he chose not to save those who go to hell by allowing them to go by choice. It is a double edge sword that cuts both ways.

[Guest ninhao]

.....Either God could not save those from going to hell that do or he did not choose to save them.

Hello Gary,

Or neither ?

Maybe God made the way clear for everyone to receive eternal life and left the choice to them. Maybe God made no choice in this matter.

What I said still stands. Though God made a way, he let people choose life or death. In doing so he chose not to save those who go to hell by allowing them to go by choice. It is a double edge sword that cuts both ways.

Ok. By this logic you are saying God chooses even when he makes no decision? God chooses not to choose ?

Sorry this does seem a little strange.

Poor God receives the blame either way

[gdemoss]

.....Either God could not save those from going to hell that do or he did not choose to save them.

Hello Gary,

Or neither ?

Maybe God made the way clear for everyone to receive eternal life and left the choice to them. Maybe God made no choice in this matter.

What I said still stands. Though God made a way, he let people choose life or death. In doing so he chose not to save those who go to hell by allowing them to go by choice. It is a double edge sword that cuts both ways.

Ok. By this logic you are saying God chooses even when he makes no decision? God chooses not to choose ?

Sorry this does seem a little strange.

Poor God receives the blame either way

This is the thing I am wrestling with. Yes, it is strange. Can we simply choose not to choose in regards to salvation and be saved by not choosing or is not choosing still making a choice for us?

[Guest ninhao]

This is the thing I am wrestling with. Yes, it is strange. Can we simply choose not to choose in regards to salvation and be saved by not choosing or is not choosing still making a choice for us?

Sorry you lost me a few choices ago

Ok let me think. Yes there are times when making no choice decides an issue. If you are given an ultimatum and make no response then the conditions of the ultimatum will be effected anyway. So in this situation no decision is equal to deciding in the negative.