allofgrace Posted December 15, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 158 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/30/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 15, 2012 (edited) I don't see that logic being scriptural at all, or don't understand your reasoning. As I read that reasoning, God doesn't know everything before it happens. Ps 139:13 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.And in Your book they all were written,The days fashioned for me,When as yet there were none of them. God would not be omniscience if He did not know everything, nothing ever occurs to God, like this verse says, He knows before it happens. That does not mean we are living a scripted life, it just means His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts because His ways and thoughts are much higher than ours. The just live by faith, not by our own understanding. God tells us to ask in faith in prayer for our needs even though scripture says He know our needs before we ask. Everything that He said would happen before the world began happened just as He says. Edited December 15, 2012 by allofgrace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayyycuuup Posted December 15, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,384 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 155 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/20/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1996 Share Posted December 15, 2012 I don't see that logic being scriptural at all, or don't understand your reasoning. As I read that reasoning, God doesn't know everything before it happens. Ps 139:13 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.And in Your book they all were written,The days fashioned for me,When as yet there were none of them. God would not be omniscience if He did not know everything, nothing ever occurs to God, like this verse says, He knows before it happens. That does not mean we are living a scripted life, it just means His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts because His ways and thoughts are much higher than ours. The just live by faith, not by our own understanding. God tells us to ask in faith in prayer for our needs even though scripture says He know our needs before we ask. Everything that He said would happen before the world began happened just as He says. If this was so then this would take away from the aspect of God being all knowing. How could He warn me of something before it occurs if He is not on the other side of my life, watching a re-run so to speak. Nothing is unknown to God. God knew us before we were even in the womb !!! Why does it appear that an all knowing God would not know our lives, having it laid out before His eyes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayyycuuup Posted December 15, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,384 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 155 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/20/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1996 Share Posted December 15, 2012 You took what I said and went out of context my friend Mike, I did not say that God directed everything in our lives I said He knows our lives, very big difference so please don't add something to what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allofgrace Posted December 15, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 158 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/30/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 15, 2012 (edited) I don't see that logic being scriptural at all, or don't understand your reasoning. As I read that reasoning, God doesn't know everything before it happens. Ps 139:13 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.And in Your book they all were written,The days fashioned for me,When as yet there were none of them. God would not be omniscience if He did not know everything, nothing ever occurs to God, like this verse says, He knows before it happens. That does not mean we are living a scripted life, it just means His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts because His ways and thoughts are much higher than ours. The just live by faith, not by our own understanding. God tells us to ask in faith in prayer for our needs even though scripture says He know our needs before we ask. Everything that He said would happen before the world began happened just as He says. If this was so then this would take away from the aspect of God being all knowing. How could He warn me of something before it occurs if He is not on the other side of my life, watching a re-run so to speak. Nothing is unknown to God. God knew us before we were even in the womb !!! Why does it appear that an all knowing God would not know our lives, having it laid out before His eyes? I must not have made it clear, that was my reason for not agreeing with the post above mine. The verse I used shows that God knew what was going to happen in the psalmist life before his substance was even formed. allofgrace I don't see that logic being scriptural at all Ps 139:13 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.And in Your book they all were written,The days fashioned for me,When as yet there were none of them. Please re-read what I said. Your ways, being a Spirit Filled believer that hears God better always follow and know his ways for your life. You better have his wisdom as it's freely given to all men. That scripture was written to a backward and unsaved people. You don't want to put yourself in their shoes, not for a second. Everything that He said would happen before the world began happened just as He says. Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: I think the scripture already covers that, I never mentioned what he declared, yet you bring it up?? your friend Jacob If this was so then this would take away from the aspect of God being all knowing. How could He warn me of something before it occurs if He is not on the other side of my life, watching a re-run so to speak. Nothing is unknown to God. God knew us before we were even in the womb !!! Why does it appear that an all knowing God would not know our lives, having it laid out before His eyes? There was never a scripture that says God is all knowing, that was my point of what I posted. God defines very clearly what he knows, and very clearly what he did not. There is no scripture that says our lives are laid out before him. We make a lot of things up, that are not scripture. What God did know was us before we were even conceived. He knows all about our heart, He knows every thought, He could pinpoint us in less than a nano second if he need to find us, He knows how many grains of sand, how many stars, how many hairs on your head. What he said he knows, for his Word never fails, and always comes to pass. He see's the snare of the fowler to get us (Psalm 91), he knows Satan's Plans for us. He sets up safety nets far into the future for us, The Holy Spirit warns us of things to come, danger ahead. He directs us to people that seem innocent, but through them years later many lives are made better, his wisdom and understand surpasses our comprehension. yet, as I pointed out he Told Eli of his plan. A plan to make his family the priesthood, a great plan that was the best plan. It would have blessed Eli's family for generations, and God spent time to train and raise up this family of priest that Eli was in charge of. God has never made a bad plan, never made a bad choice. Yet. 1Sa 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed. What God said and planed, did not happen because of mans choice to not honor him. God does not set things up, plan, and purpose things for failure. To say God knew Eli would not honor him, is to say God on purpose makes bad choices, and it's his will that people not obey him. That thinking is contrary to so many scriptures. That is the point I was trying to make when we talk about Limited Atonement for only people God has picked and chosen. There is more about our Father in heaven that Religion has covered up. We made our Father to be like we think a god is, and in reality, He is far different than what we say He is. For he Has told us several times that He never planed failure, nor considered it, and always has responded to mans actions with faith, hope, and Mercy that man will obey and do as He says. Jesus Is Lord. I will let it rest. Edited December 15, 2012 by allofgrace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 15, 2012 Share Posted December 15, 2012 The elect PROVE themselves by responding to the call. The MANY are called (all people), but few are chosen. The chosen show themselves so by responding favorably to the call. We don't know WHO the chosen are, therefore we must give the call to all as God leads. The reprobate show themselves for what THEY are by their response as well. The 'whomsoever believes' of John 3:16 are the responding elect. The reprobate are the rejectors. That presupposes that someone is "elect" before they respond to the call. There is no election of who will or will not be saved. I also don't see any dichotomy bewteen the chosen and the elect. The whosoever in John 3:16 is everyone. Whosoever is an all inclusive term that doesn't refer to a specific group of "elect." If God had meant for John 3:16 to refer to a specific group of people, He would have worded it that way. You are trying to pencil in a meaning to that verse that it doesn't contain. The Gospel is for every man and woman, not a select pre-chosen group called "the elect." You become the "elect" when you are saved. The term "elect" is always used in terms of a redeemed community, not in reference to unbelievers who have not come to Christ. The elect are written in the Book of Life from before time. The thing is that WE don't know who they are. The Gospel is available to be heard by all. Read Romans 9, then tell me you don't believe that God has chosen His elect. Man has NO ability to receive the gift on his own, because man is dead in sins. The Spirit enlightens and man responds. Where in Scripture does it say that the elect are written in the Book of Life from before time? God knows who will and will not receive Him. But God doesn't choose to save a certain group. It is one thing to say that God knows who will or will not receive Him. It is another thing to argue that God chooses who will be the elect and then ables ONLY them to receive them. The Bible nowhere claims that God has elected some to be saved. The clear and unambiguous language of Scripture with respect to salvation is always inclusive never exclusive in terms of who may or may not be saved. Limited Atonement, Unconditional Election are doctrines that do not reflect authentic, biblical Christianity and are anti-thetical to the character and opertions of God in Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted December 15, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Share Posted December 15, 2012 The elect PROVE themselves by responding to the call. The MANY are called (all people), but few are chosen. The chosen show themselves so by responding favorably to the call. We don't know WHO the chosen are, therefore we must give the call to all as God leads. The reprobate show themselves for what THEY are by their response as well. The 'whomsoever believes' of John 3:16 are the responding elect. The reprobate are the rejectors. That presupposes that someone is "elect" before they respond to the call. There is no election of who will or will not be saved. I also don't see any dichotomy bewteen the chosen and the elect. The whosoever in John 3:16 is everyone. Whosoever is an all inclusive term that doesn't refer to a specific group of "elect." If God had meant for John 3:16 to refer to a specific group of people, He would have worded it that way. You are trying to pencil in a meaning to that verse that it doesn't contain. The Gospel is for every man and woman, not a select pre-chosen group called "the elect." You become the "elect" when you are saved. The term "elect" is always used in terms of a redeemed community, not in reference to unbelievers who have not come to Christ. The elect are written in the Book of Life from before time. The thing is that WE don't know who they are. The Gospel is available to be heard by all. Read Romans 9, then tell me you don't believe that God has chosen His elect. Man has NO ability to receive the gift on his own, because man is dead in sins. The Spirit enlightens and man responds. Where in Scripture does it say that the elect are written in the Book of Life from before time? God knows who will and will not receive Him. But God doesn't choose to save a certain group. It is one thing to say that God knows who will or will not receive Him. It is another thing to argue that God chooses who will be the elect and then ables ONLY them to receive them. The Bible nowhere claims that God has elected some to be saved. The clear and unambiguous language of Scripture with respect to salvation is always inclusive never exclusive in terms of who may or may not be saved. Limited Atonement, Unconditional Election are doctrines that do not reflect authentic, biblical Christianity and are anti-thetical to the character and opertions of God in Scripture. Rev 17:8 indicates that there are those who were NOT written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. There is an implication here that there are those whose names have been written in the Book of Life from the creation of the world. Romans 9 also makes it very plain that salvation is not of the will of man, but of God, as does John in John 1:13 and surrounding verses. The problem lies not with God, but with us as men. We have difficulty with the idea of a God who is sovereign and does as HE wills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allofgrace Posted December 15, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 158 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/30/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 15, 2012 (edited) You are quoting Rev 13:8 and he quoted 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. KJV I post that just for info, knowing you just overlooked that by mistake. Edited December 15, 2012 by allofgrace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Believer Posted December 15, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 121 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,931 Content Per Day: 0.35 Reputation: 126 Days Won: 8 Joined: 01/22/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/13/1955 Share Posted December 15, 2012 Wiggle all you like gentlemen. The fact of the matter remains: There is ONE Book of Life. The righteous are written in it and the wicked are not. Were the wicked erased from it? Yes. When all is said and done, on the LAST DAY, the only ones remaining in that book will be the elect. The wicked won't be there because their sins are not forgiven, because they failed to believe on the Name of the only Son of God. Sovereign means sovereign. God is sovereign and does as He wills. Satan has never had that power. He is always subject to God. God is subject to no one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted December 16, 2012 Share Posted December 16, 2012 Rev 17:8 indicates that there are those who were NOT written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. There is an implication here that there are those whose names have been written in the Book of Life from the creation of the world. But you are running from the assumption that this is referring to those who God chose to be saved. All you have is conjecture and implication and no clear doctrinal platorm from which to make a dogmatic theological statement. You are applying this one verse to a context it was not meant to address. That is a sloppy exegiesis. Romans 9 also makes it very plain that salvation is not of the will of man, but of God, Romans 9 is not about salvation, but about God sovereignty in how He uses people good and bad to accomplish His plans and agenda. Romans is not about God choosing who will or will not be saved, but choosing who He uses and for what purpose, hence he refers to the to vessels of honor and dishonor. The potter can take a lump of clay and make a beautiful show piece or he can take the same lump of clay and make a cereal bowl. It is up to the potter. That is the analogy Paul draws to explain God's sovereignty to use Israel as He did in order to bring about His plan. The problem lies not with God, but with us as men. We have difficulty with the idea of a God who is sovereign and does as HE wills. I have no problem with God's sovereignty. I have a big problem with your mishandling of that doctrine to teach a false gospel that has God choosing who will or will not be saved, as the Bible makes no such claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allofgrace Posted December 16, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 158 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/30/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 16, 2012 There is absolutely no scripture that says God knows who will choose him ahead of time. God lives outside of time. God saw us as a child and grow up. God is Sovereign. Then in the 2nd sentence from there, you finish with this statement: God is Sovereign is not even in the bible. The word itself may not be, just like the word Trinity is not, but the principle for both is clearly there. What does sovereign mean to you? Is there anyone more powerful, more knowing than God? 1 Tim 6:13-16 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen. The NKJ I use has a note for Potentate to also mean Sovereign. Here is the meaning of potentate from the 1828 Webster dictionary; PO'TENTATE, n. A person who possesses great power or sway; a prince; a sovereign; an emperor, king or monarch. Exalting him not only above earthly princes and potentates, but above the highest of the celestial hierarchy. There is no sovereign like the Lord our God and no one does anything that He does not allow, He is Sovereign over all things whether or not anyone disputes that or not. The principle is taught throughout scripture on that. God never considered the Blood of the Lamb would not work for everyone. Failure is not in his vocabulary and he only thinks good thoughts, not thoughts of evil or someone roasting in hell. (Jer 25:11) Then why is it that we see scripture like this: John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God". Granted I would agree with you that He does not compel some to not believe if that be your point but He knew full well that there would be those who would not receive the Lord and He states here that those who do not believe are condemned already. And other scriptures tell us that unbelievers will spend eternity in torment so that would let us know that He indeed knew that there would be many in the lake of fire. After all He created all things and places. Maybe should do like you said: We need to just stick with the Word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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