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Limited Atonement


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Guest shiloh357
Here is the issue I have with these types of discussions. We all have set in ideas about God, that have counter scriptures or no scriptural backing. I know we don't mean to do this, but it helps to practice, that we only go line upon line, and discount any idea that is not in scripture.

Some have no ability to do that, they can't learn, nor be taught. My hope is that one day they become teachable.

There is absolutely no scripture that says God knows who will choose him ahead of time. God lives outside of time. God saw us as a child and grow up. God is Sovereign.

God is omniscient and knows the future and what people will do. He foretells not only what He will do but how mankind will respond to what he does. God knew that Pharoah would not let the children of israel go. He knew that Pharoah would reject His word and would have to be broken. Jesus foretold how the world would reject the gospel and persecute those who preached it. He foretold human choices all of the time. He foretold that many would choose the road of destruction and few would choose the path that leads to life.

For you to say to that God doesn't know who will or will not choose Him, demonstrates that you don't know God or the Scriptures.

The scriptures are very clear on what God knows, for he knows all things about the heart, and a heart can change for bad or good.

God is Sovereign is not even in the bible.

The Bible demonstrates the Sovereignty of God in many places. Romans 9 is all about the sovereignty of God and Paul uses the analogy of the "sovereignty" of the potter over the clay to do with it as he chooses. The Bible is replete with passages about how God's will always triumphs over human agenda. You need to read the Bible better.

God always operates in perfect harmony with his eternal word that he has exalted above his very name. If he said he is no respecter of persons, if he said it's his will that none perish, then bless God he meant it.

You need to distinguish between the perfect and permissive aspects of God's will. God's revealed will in Scripture is that people not murder, yet He permits murder to occur. God's permissive will allows a lot of things that are not in line with His perfect will. It is God's perfect will that no one perish and that all come to repentance, but if a person chooses to reject the Gospel and remain in a state of continued separation from God.

So God does not fathom anyone not making it because a faith God speaks those things that are not, as though they were. He called you saved, and its best to get into agreement with him and what He provided.

A "faith God?" God is sovereign control and does not operate by faith. There is no divine referent in faith. We are commanded to operate by faith in God. There is nothing in Scripture that claims that God operates by faith. That sounds like something from the Word of Faith movement, which is a movement of false prophets and false teachers.

God never considered the Blood of the Lamb would not work for everyone. Failure is not in his vocabulary and he only thinks good thoughts, not thoughts of evil or someone roasting in hell. (Jer 25:11)

It works for those apply it. It doesn't "work" for those who choose to come to God another way.

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Exactly whom would God have faith IN? That's just a bunch of hooey. God swears by Himself because he can swear by no other. When YOU are the object of faith, you don't need faith.

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Guest shiloh357
]Mar 11:22 And Jesus answering saith to them, `Have faith of God;

Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Mark 11:22 say, "have faith in God." There is NO Greek manuscript that supports a reading like, "have the faith of God." That is a perversion of Scripture. Secondly Heb. 11:3 simply means that it is our faith that informs our understanding of how God created the worlds. It is NOT saying that God used faith to create the world.

Who made the worlds? Who used who's faith? need more scriptures?

God calls those things that be not as though they were, faith being a substance of something not seen?

I would not put down other denominations, and I would study a bit more about God, his faith, and where we get faith. Also Sovereign God is not in the bible, so lets do the study with bible terms.

God does not have faith. God does not use faith. In Scripture, faith only has a human referent. Faith is not a force. Faith is the human response to God's word. For you to argue that God has faith shows that you are not using Bible terms.

The Sovereignty of God is demonstrated all throughout Scripture. God is in sovereign control of all that happens in this world. That is biblical truth and anything to contrary is false teaching.

i am not putting down another denomination. I am exposing a cult, called "The Word of Faith Movement."

Oh and by the way, When you end your posts with "Jesus is Lord," it might interest you to know that the concept of "Lord" in Scripture implies sovereignty. "Lord" in both Greek and Hebrew is a title that indicates the absolute sovereign rule of the one to whom it is applied.

So if you don't believe God is sovereign, you should not call Him "Lord."

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Not that I agree that God acts in faith Himself, which I do not find in Scripture, for why and how would He have faith in Himself seems foolish. But there are those that have translated that phrase, faith of God. But we can see that they explain it is having faith in God's ability to do whatever is ask of Him. Here are just a few from biblos.com

Barnes' Notes on the Bible

Have faith in God - Literally, "Have the faith of God." This may mean, have strong faith, or have confidence in God; a strong belief that he is able to accomplish things that appear most difficult with infinite ease, as the fig-tree was made to wither away by a word.

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

Have faith in God - Εχετε πιϚιν θεου is a mere Hebraism: have the faith of God, i.e. have strong faith, or the strongest faith, for thus the Hebrews expressed the superlative degree; so the mountains of God mean exceeding great mountains - the hail of God, exceeding great hail, etc.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

And Jesus answering, saith unto them,.... To all the disciples; for what Peter said, he said in the name of them all; and according to Matthew, the disciples said, "how soon is the fig tree withered away?" To which this is an answer; though the Arabic version renders it, "to him"; as if the words were directed particularly to Peter:

have faith in God; or "the faith of God", so the Vulgate Latin, Syriac, Persic, and Ethiopic versions; that is, exercise, and make use of that faith which has God for its author, which is the work of God, and of his operation, a free grace gift of his; and which has God for its object; and is supported by his power, and encouraged by his goodness, truth, and faithfulness: and so the Arabic version renders it, "believe in God"; not only that such things may be done, as the drying up a fig tree, but those that are much greater.

Geneva Study Bible

And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have {e} faith in God.

(e) The faith of God is that assured faith and trust which we have in him.

Edited by allofgrace
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if you don't believe God is sovereign, you should not call Him "Lord."

:thumbsup:

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It's ignorance that says God don't need faith, as he relies on nobody. No, God is the author of faith, and we need his faith which is produced by the word.

Now God also believes, for he believed Saul would make a great King, and believed Eli would be faithful making the promise to his family. The nature of God is to believe, as God is love, and it's written that Love thinks the best, hopes the best and takes no thought of wrong done to it.

If God has no faith, plans everything, knows mans choices from start to finish. Then there is no preaching of the gospel, for what difference can I make who goes against a all knowing creator.

For even God knowing everything, putting the spirit of man, in man. Knowing the mans out come whom he sent that spirit to. Would not say it's his will none should perish.

So, saying God does not have faith, God does not hope the best, and think the best of his creation, is to say man never had a choice. Then the election doctrine must be sound, and without fault.

I will let each determine what is ignorant. But all one has to do is read the scriptures to know that God did not think Saul would be a good king. Nor did He want anyone other than Himself to be recognized as King over all His people. He is the King of Kings and there is no other true King. As you said, we should stick with what thus says the Lord, so let all you is interested in truth read what the Lord says in:

1 Sam 8:10-21 So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who asked him for a king. 11 And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. 12 He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. 14 And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. 16 And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. 17 He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. 18 And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the Lord will not hear you in that day.”

19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us, 20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.”

21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he repeated them in the hearing of the Lord. 22 So the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed their voice, and make them a king.”

And Samuel said to the men of Israel, “Every man go to his city.”

Edited by allofgrace
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Guest shiloh357
God is sovereign is not a scripture.

Yes it is in Scripture. You simply don't know the Scriptures.

No reason to mention things the Word does not,
Then you should stop saying that God has faith, because the Bible doesn't say that God has faith.

and God's Sovereignty has a different definition depending on who you ask.

No it doesn't. Some people have different views about how far God's sovereignty extends in relation to the free will of man, but no one is operating under a different definition.

The Greek should read "Have God kind of faith" That is the most accurate translation.
Wrong. the Greek doesn't support that. The ONLY people who claim that Mark 11:23 should say "have the God kind of faith" are people like Kenneth Copeland and Kenneth Hagin and NEITHER one of them ever knew Greek. Neither of them know what they are talking about.

Have faith in God, have God's faith, are both acceptable. It gets translated depending on a belief system.

No, it is NOT translated according to belief system. The Word of Faith movement has come in and tried to change what the Bible says in order to accomodate their demonic doctrines like claiming that God has faith. That is a perversion of Scripture. The Bible NOWHERE says that God has faith.

God calls those things that be not as though they were.
That is not faith.

For faith is a substance of things, and without that substance, nothing was made.

The Bible never says that faith was used to create the worlds/universe. That is a WoF perversion. The Bible does not call that faith. The WoF Movement has its own definition of faith and tries to foist it upon the Bible. The Bible knows nothing of "the God kind of faith." That is false teaching.

First you comments come of prideful. The WOF movement, the Baptist Movement, Certain Pentecostal movements, the Nazarene Movement all believe Jesus is Lord, but have different revelations about the bible. I would not call them cults, or wrong. The judgement thing bothers me.

The WoF movement is just that. It is not a denomination. It is a cultic movement and does not reflect authentic Christianity. It does not belong in a list of denominations, as it is not one.

What I get grieved about is that The Methodist for Example took a vote to allow Gay Pastors. That's a major denomination that is in such a dark place, that they even took a vote like that. That grieves me.
Yes, that is of the devil, as well.
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Guest shiloh357

Continued from above post...

]Faith.

I will try to make this real clear.

Faith is a substance of something not seen. These planets were "Framed" by the Word, out of that same unseen substance. There is a reason these scriptures are next to each other.

God did not take nothing, and make something. It was made from things that do not appear, or the Substance called faith.

That is not what the Bible says. The Bible does not say that God creating the worlds by His word is "faith." Faith only has a human referent in Scripture. The Bible never says that God did anything "by faith." Faith doesn't have a divine referent, therefore. Faith is our response to God's word. Faith is not a creative substance. That is WoF teaching, not anything that the Bible says. Sorry, but you are parroting demonic teaching.

God upholds everything by the Word of his power. Through that Word which causes faith in us, and framed everything, from the sun, the moon, and even the air we breath is a substance. God spoke, the Word framed, the substance holds it. There is no higgs particle. Faith is unseen.

The Bible teaches that faith is produced when we hear the Word of God. But it does not say the Word causes faith in God, nor does it EVER say that faith is a creative substance.

Now God also believes, for he believed Saul would make a great King, and believed Eli would be faithful making the promise to his family. The nature of God is to believe, as God is love, and it's written that Love thinks the best, hopes the best and takes no thought of wrong done to it.

This is very heretical. God doesn't "beleive" anything. God is omniscient and knows the end from the beginning. God knows this universe down to the last atom. He is eternal and knows all that can be known. He doesn't have faith, doesnt need faith. He is all knowing, all powerful and completely self-sustaining. To apply "faith" or "believing" to God is to rob God of His divine attributes and THAT is heresy. I am not using that as a pejorative, but as a theological concept. Heresy is anything that assaults the essential nature and character of God, and that is what you have done.

If God has no faith, plans everything, knows mans choices from start to finish. Then there is no preaching of the gospel, for what difference can I make who goes against a all knowing creator.

Wrong. it is because God DOES know everything and all of man's choices and it is becuase God is sovereign and is control of the universe that I can preach the Gospel with boldness. I have faith in a God who knows the end from the beginning. He knows the future because He is already there. He is omnipresent. He is the architect of the ages. Couple that with the fact that He is 100% faithful and immovable, unchanging and I have something to anchor my faith to.

For even God knowing everything, putting the spirit of man, in man. Knowing the mans out come whom he sent that spirit to. Would not say it's his will none should perish.

That is just wrong. God's perfect will is that none perish. But God's permissive will allows man to perish if that is what man wants to do. The same God who said, "you should not murder" is the same God who permits murder. Your understanding of sovereignty is very flawed.

So, saying God does not have faith, God does not hope the best, and think the best of his creation, is to say man never had a choice. Then the election doctrine must be sound, and without fault.

Actually that is not true. God doesn't have faith or hope. Neither of those are divine attributes of God in Scripture. There is not ONE place in the Bible where it says that God hopes or believes anything. Faith and hope are what come to us as the result of God's integrity and the integrity of His Word.

{{{ Removed personal attack please remember to respect each other in the love of God. Please remember to follow the ToS }}}

Edited by shiloh357
{{{ Removed personal attack please remember to respect each other in the love of God. Please remember to follow the ToS }}}
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God is sovereign is not a scripture. No reason to mention things the Word does not, and God's Sovereignty has a different definition depending on who you ask.

You don't think God is sovereign? You don't find this anywhere in scripture?

What do you believe being sovereign means?

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Thank you shiloh357

Your hung up on denominations now. The scripture does not say God knows the end from the beginning. That is a misquote from Isa. I am not clear on what the Word of Faith movement interprets Mark 11:22, what I have looked at was written by someone that studies Greek and is a Baptist.

I am not sure what you think everything was made from. I guess nothing, even though there is a science beyond understanding God uses.

And we have come down to finding every little thing possibly wrong that someone posted, it's pride, it's not God, and no reason to add to this.

The question was does God have a limited atonement, and I failed to introduce things as some seem to know everything, which I don't, so I am out.

Jesus Is Lord.

Brother, correcting a person error is not pride. Rejecting correction is based in pride. Nothing that Shiloh has presented is in error.

Nowhere does Shiloh point to a denomination, but a movement which has no denominational roots.

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