MATTHEW 5:48

[allofgrace]

The only question needing answered is how does God see the believer? As they are in truth is what he sees.

Rom 3:21-22 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;

This answers that question, just like 1Cor1:30-31 also said, the righteousness of the God is revealed through faith in Jesus Christ, He is the believers only righteousness according to God.

'Is your interpretation of what you believe 1 Cor:30-31 correct?' would be a better question. It is interesting what you try to make it say. Of course the scriptures are correct, that is a silly question. Our understanding of them is what ends up flawed. You haven't shown what I have said to be false. Imputed righteousness is a good topic and it is clear as to whom will receive such in Romans 4.

Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.

Try as you might, you cannot divorce works from faith as works define faith. Whatever it means to 'walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham' is required for imputed righteousness according to what Paul wrote. Verse 11 covers the context that we are talking about imputed righteousness.

But the question is about how God sees us, not about imputed righteousness. If God is going to judge whether our faith is genuine, he must, by his own standard, look at who we are in truth and not ignore that which we do.

Peace in Christ.

I only quoted the 1 Cor 1:30-31 verses, it was the Holy Spirit who inspired Paul to write them. I let them stand on their own merit, I have no righteousness apart from the imputed righteousness of Christ through faith in Him. But as your explanation of the Rom 4:12 verse shows you try to put the cart before the horse. One cannot walk in the faith until after they have exercised faith in Jesus Christ and received His righteousness through the forgiveness which salvation brings. No one has any righteousness before conversion so there can be no good works prior to salvation, good works are evidence of salvation, for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works(Eph 2:10). And this statement from you:( But the question is about how God sees us, not about imputed righteousness) As both passages I quoted state, He is the one that answered that for you Himself, 1Cor1:28-31 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

If one is in Christ this verse applies to them and is the only reason they have the righteousness of God in them, its because of who gave it to them by faith in His Son, the Lord our Righteousness. Jer 23:6 In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Jer 33:16, You hinted that I gave the 1 Cor 1:30-31 passage wrong, but as usual you did not say how it should be explained. You only give your standard reply and jump to another verse which doesn't even show how the person is declared righteous in the first place. I have shown you how God declares one righteous and it is never because of their good works, it is always by grace through faith in His Son Jesus Christ which frees them from the law of sin and death and being sealed with the Holy Spirit then they can produce good works and that because it is God working in them to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil 2:13.

[gdemoss]

When God looks upon us, ask yourself if He is seeing us or is He seeing Christ in us? Christ is the only perfection we will even have in our lives. We, as human, will never be perfect. Only He in us is perfect.

Can you provide scripture that shows that when God looks at us that he sees Christ even if we are being disobedient to Christ? I would like to understand this doctrine better. I only see the scripture saying that God sees me as me. That if I put on Christ and walk in him then God sees me as Christ, the cleft of the rock that I have hidden myself in as I am conformed to his death by picking up my cross, denying myself and walking in him. If I come out of the rock and walk in disobedience, it appears that scripture says that the wrath of God abides upon me being a child of disobedience. How is it you say he sees me as Christ still when I am not truly walking in Him? Where is my scriptural reference that guides me to understand this to be true?

Who is "me" if not a human washed in the blood of Christ? If God does not see the blood, am I His? He does not see us as Christ for we can never be Christ. He sees His Son covering us. Do I have scripture for it ? Not at the moment. I will try and put it together for you, but chances are, we are both looking at the same scripture, but coming out with different understandings.

If you reread my statement, I said we will never be perfect.

Thanks for getting back to me, Alan. I am in full agreement with you that we cannot be Christ, as there is but one. And your most likely spot on that we are seeing something different when looking at the same scriptures. My desire, and I know yours too, is to simply understand it for what it says.

allofgrace: I don't do well with large blocks of text as I get lost in them and simply move on. Paragraphs break things up and make them easier to read. As Alan pointed out above, we see the same texts but understand them differently. I don't think you and I are too far off in what we actually believe. The belief that nobody ever did anything good before knowing Christ is error. God wrote his law upon our hearts and before I ever knew Christ, I had upon occasion been guided by pricks of conscience but God still gets credit because he is the one who wrote it upon my heart. Fair warning though, if you write huge blocks of text, I will probably read the first three lines and move past the rest, lest God give me the ability to deal with it and he hasn't yet.

Hi Brother Mike.

[AlexanderJ]

Christians find their righteousness and perfection in Christ - but not in themselves.

If the question is: "Can a Christian find perfection in himself and in so doing live perfectly?" the answer is, of course, no. On the other hand, if the question is: "Can a Christian find perfection in Christ and, in so doing, live perfectly?" the answer is yes.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him (Christ), not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death....

A believer on this earth has (and will have, until his/her physical death) two principles in him/her-self, the Flesh, and the Spirit of God. A believer can always find the essence of both perfection and imperfection in him/her-self.

[Guest]

AlexanderJ

Christians find their righteousness and perfection in Christ - but not in themselves.

We can do nothing of ourselves (Jesus said that) so that is true. Would you say that this Righteousness is just handed to us from day one, or is it something that may come later if we are diligent in the things of God?

Jesus Is Lord.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:4-5

[allofgrace]

We can do nothing of ourselves (Jesus said that) so that is true. Would you say that this Righteousness is just handed to us from day one, or is it something that may come later if we are diligent in the things of God?

You asked if this Righteousness is just handed to believers from day one, where does the Righteousness come from that brings salvation, and is it there from day one or does salvation comes later? When is the person sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of Redemption, from day one or is it something that comes later if you are diligent in the things of God. Which would make it depend on works if its not there in the beginning, wouldn't it? Whose righteousness gives the sinner the righteousness of God?

[franciskelsey]

Everything that Jesus did and had is now availible to us. It is possible for a Christian to live a perfect life but because of the desires of the flesh it is highly unlikely.

So far only Jesus has been able to do that.

Can you show one verse that shows this outside of the wrongly perceived idea of perfection? It seems Paul was more humble about his own sin the closer his earthly life drew to an end more so than any other time. Thanks Mass

OneLight, on 20 January 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

When God looks upon us, ask yourself if He is seeing us or is He seeing Christ in us? Christ is the only perfection we will even have in our lives. We, as human, will never be perfect. Only He in us is perfect.

Can you provide scripture that shows that when God looks at us that he sees Christ even if we are being disobedient to Christ? I would like to understand this doctrine better. I only see the scripture saying that God sees me as me. That if I put on Christ and walk in him then God sees me as Christ, the cleft of the rock that I have hidden myself in as I am conformed to his death by picking up my cross, denying myself and walking in him. If I come out of the rock and walk in disobedience, it appears that scripture says that the wrath of God abides upon me being a child of disobedience. How is it you say he sees me as Christ still when I am not truly walking in Him? Where is my scriptural reference that guides me to understand this to be true?

My dearest brother Gary, it is not that God sees Christ when He looks at us but rather the blood of Christ. In other words of course, Jesus is God, thus He cannot look upon Himself when looking on us, however, He looks on what the blood has done for us. Before He died, as you know, we could not stand before God. Our sin or disobedience separates us from God. In Hebrews it is clear that turning back to the world after we are giving the Holy Spirit can be a fatal thing to do as Christ blood cannot be shed twice. Hebrew states that if God did not put up with the sins of people of the past that had not the blood and Holy Spirit, how much less will He put up with those that disobey on continual bases after the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Point being. We are called to obedience, and in this obedience we are made perfect or better put mature. God looks at the blood, and Christ looks and judges us based on what we did with His blood that made us Holy. God cannot look at us without condemning us without looking through His Son's blood.

Have a blessed day my family

[OneLight]

OneLight, on 20 January 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

When God looks upon us, ask yourself if He is seeing us or is He seeing Christ in us? Christ is the only perfection we will even have in our lives. We, as human, will never be perfect. Only He in us is perfect.

Can you provide scripture that shows that when God looks at us that he sees Christ even if we are being disobedient to Christ? I would like to understand this doctrine better. I only see the scripture saying that God sees me as me. That if I put on Christ and walk in him then God sees me as Christ, the cleft of the rock that I have hidden myself in as I am conformed to his death by picking up my cross, denying myself and walking in him. If I come out of the rock and walk in disobedience, it appears that scripture says that the wrath of God abides upon me being a child of disobedience. How is it you say he sees me as Christ still when I am not truly walking in Him? Where is my scriptural reference that guides me to understand this to be true?

Are or are we not covered by His blood? Are we or are we not filed with His Spirit? Is our righteousness like filthy rags or not? If God looked and saw us, in His justified judgment, would we be allowed in His presence?

[gdemoss]

Are or are we not covered by His blood?

If we walk in the light, then yes.

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Are we or are we not filed with His Spirit?

We are to check our own selves by examining our works.

2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Is our righteousness like filthy rags or not?

Not after we begin to follow him by picking up our cross and dying to ourselves. At that point it is no longer our righteousness that we do but his. At that point we are clothing ourselves with his garments having shed our old filthy rags which are referred to as dead works in another place.

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

[OneLight]

Is our righteousness like filthy rags or not?

Not after we begin to follow him by picking up our cross and dying to ourselves. At that point it is no longer our righteousness that we do but his. At that point we are clothing ourselves with his garments having shed our old filthy rags which are referred to as dead works in another place.

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Thanks for showing that it is Him God sees, for it is not us doing anything , but Him through us. All we can do is say that we humbled ourselves before God. He does the work.

[gdemoss]

Is our righteousness like filthy rags or not?

Not after we begin to follow him by picking up our cross and dying to ourselves. At that point it is no longer our righteousness that we do but his. At that point we are clothing ourselves with his garments having shed our old filthy rags which are referred to as dead works in another place.

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Thanks for showing that it is Him God sees, for it is not us doing anything , but Him through us. All we can do is say that we humbled ourselves before God. He does the work.

Now I see your perspective. That makes things a bit more clear. You are simply saying that it is Christ in us the hope of glory and since we are dead and our life is hid in Christ as we walk in him that God sees him and not us. That is if I understand you correctly. And if so, then that which I say applies equally as well, if we come out of the cleft of the rock and simply walk in the flesh, then God sees us, the children of disobedience and not Christ since we are not walking in him.