The Ten Commandments vs Modernity

[CAP73]

When did I insult the Hebrew deity?

Calling Jesus a dead man and disrespecting God... Surely you knew that would offend a Christian?

Edited January 9, 2013 by GoldenEagle
{{ Edited in red to reflect comment that was deleted/changed. }}

[GoldenEagle]

This thread is closed for review.

Edit: This thread has been revised, the posts toned down, and the posts now reflect the WCF ToS I believe. Please proceed by respecting God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the Bible. Please also respect each other in your posts or this thread will be closed again. Debate the subject not the person.

[thomas t]

Hello agooyers,

you have many thoughts, I'd like to pick up some out of the corrected version in case you didn't mind and think that these postings still provide a basis for discussion?

Having some knowledge of the Ten Commandments, I had to contradict him and argue that in my opinion not only are the Ten Commandments incomplete as a legal system, I believe the teachings of the entire Bible do not even come close to constituting a complete and functional modern system of laws, and I believe failing to explicitly forbid rape, slavery, and pedophilia for example (in fact endorsing these things when committed against rival tribes, and also encouraging genocide against rival tribes).

[coloured and bolded mine]

1) you didn't provide any scripture to give evidence to you claim that the Bible endorsed rape for example. It's absurd, I think.

2) Let's talk about terminology. "Genocide" (i) is the wrong expression for anything that God ordered. God is allowed to do whatever he wants. When people kill other nations without having received a direct commandment of God, that's genocide. The Bible, however left no doubt about the fact that God himself ordered the killing of the Kanaanites. Let me give you an analogy to get my point across. When the state collects taxes, is this called theft? No it isn't. However, when I'd take your purse, it is.

(i) according to the definition that is presented here: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007043

Edited January 9, 2013 by thomas t

[thomas t]

... now I'd like to go into more detail:

Commandment #6. Thou shalt not kill.

Needless to say, I have no problem with this one. It's a good one. Unfortunately, in my opinion much of the rest of the Bible doesn't really seem to think so. There are so many examples of God killing people with impunity and relish, often what seems to me for ridiculous or petty reasons, and so many examples of God proscribing murder, genocide, and wholly unwarranted capital punishment, it boggles my mind.

[bolded mine]

I think what you are doing here, even in the corrected version - and GE seemed to have had tons of work for monitoring this post - is nothing else than a slap into God's face, I think. When we accuse the Jew totally without any firm reason, It's called anti-semitism. I think what you did here with the remark "relish" is blasphemy. You don't have the slightest bit of evidence for that.

Commandment #1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

This first commandment simply does not gel with freedom of religion. In a modern society, we do not have any laws trying to force anyone to adhere to any specific deity. We do not have any law that says "Hindus may continue to call themselves Hindus, but the only deity they may worship is the Abrahamic deity Yahweh." And we are better for it. Religious freedom, including the right to have no religion or any belief in any deity, is vital to personal freedom and prevents religious persecution. An issue I have is that the Bible calls for capital punishment for the "crime" of having deities other than the Hebrew one.

Commandment #2: Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.

Well, Things Engraved is in trouble if this is to be enforced! I kid, I'm not actually being obtuse, claiming that this commandment is forbidding sculptures or carvings. It's forbidding idol worship. Again, this stands in direct contradiction of religious freedom. We have absolutely no law saying you can't make representations of your deities/icons of worship. If I wanted to I could make myself a golden calf and bow down to it til the real cows came home. I personally wouldn't believe it actually represented anything, but even if I did, the government couldn't keep me from doing it. They certainly wouldn't put me to death, as the Bible requests of those in authority.

Commandment #3: Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

First, if this were a law it would assume in its language that Yahweh is everyone's god. Which would be a violation of freedom of religion. This isn't so in the U.S. Second, this flies in the face of freedom of speech, another absolutely vital freedom to a modern democratic society. There is no law forbidding me from saying for example a curse word if I want. Why is the commandment against murder not commandment Number 1? Again, the punishment for this is supposed to be death, according to the Bible.

Commandment #4: Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

I don't even know what modern laws this would contradict. Freedom of religion AGAIN.

[bolded mine]

Now let's turn to the less horrible things (my opinion) out of your posting: You claim that there wouldn't be religious freedom, if the ten commandments would turn into law. You are right in a sense that anything prohibiting different religions would be wrong. However, Jesus wants us to deliberatly believe in him. Turning this commandment into what you think corresonds to it best (the law), would counteract free will, which is a necessary ingredient to faith.

I'd like to add that your opinion I bolded in the above quote pointed to particular occasions only!

Thomas

[thomas t]

I recently had a Christian, trying to defend the Creation Museum in Kentucky, trying to convince me that actually there is no such thing as Atheists because every human being actually believes in God, and trying to argue that modern laws, legal systems, and civil institutions are actually striving to be the equal of the "perfect Ten Commandments".

<snip>

Uh huh....

Are you asking about the Bible as a whole?

Just the Old Testament?

The 10 commandments which were given as a covenant sign to Israel?

The entire body of the law? (613...365 "thou shalt nots" and 248 "thou must do's")

We probably need to narrow this down a bit.

Hello McGiver,

I didn't like your posting because it went over all the blasphemy out of the old post you quoted. I mean (that's my personal opinion) the first thing we should do when we deal with someone mocking God is to tackle the blasphemy. What you did was going over it and instead mcgivering details. What you did is just spreading the poison of blasphemy, I think.

Thomas

[thomas t]

I don't believe that I ever hear of that word "modernity", to my surprise it is an actual word, my ignorance.

You've never heard the word "modernity"?!? Ummmm...fair enough, but that doesn't get us off to a very good start on the apologetics front.

By all means, proceed.

[bolded mine]

Hello HeGivethMoreGrace

Could you please explain what you mean by the bolded part of it?

Thomas

[He giveth more grace]

Proceed

to continue after a pause or interruption.

[Mcgyver]

I recently had a Christian, trying to defend the Creation Museum in Kentucky, trying to convince me that actually there is no such thing as Atheists because every human being actually believes in God, and trying to argue that modern laws, legal systems, and civil institutions are actually striving to be the equal of the "perfect Ten Commandments".

<snip>

Uh huh....

Are you asking about the Bible as a whole?

Just the Old Testament?

The 10 commandments which were given as a covenant sign to Israel?

The entire body of the law? (613...365 "thou shalt nots" and 248 "thou must do's")

We probably need to narrow this down a bit.

Hello McGiver,

I didn't like your posting because it went over all the blasphemy out of the old post you quoted. I mean (that's my personal opinion) the first thing we should do when we deal with someone mocking God is to tackle the blasphemy. What you did was going over it and instead mcgivering details. What you did is just spreading the poison of blasphemy, I think.

Thomas

Brother, I understand your position...however I realized that this fellow was trying to provoke a reaction, to bait us if you will. I refuse to rise to the bait.

The scripture tells us: But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

This is a perfect example of that...I have found in the course of ministry that when one is confrontational, angry, trying to provoke a reaction; that if I respond by meeting them in kind then nothing is accomplished.

If however I remain calm and address the question, sooner or later they calm down and an opportunity arises to plant a seed, to share the gospel. I don't like many things that they say about God, but God is well able to defend Himself....and we need to remember that Christ died for this fellow also.

I think that our call as Christians is not to "defend" God...our call is to reach them with the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ and let the Holy Spirit do His work in their lives.

I'll leave it to our outstanding moderators to enforce the ToS...and I will try not to violate the ToS...but really, if I as a poster tell him to "knock it off" what would happen?

Edited January 9, 2013 by Mcgyver

[GoldenEagle]

All,

If someone is violating the ToS for future reference I suggest linking the ToS to them on the thread. Often people gloss over the ToS (Terms of Service) when signing up. I am also thankful for the reports from members.

Thomas, just an observation but as you have entered the conversation after the edits were made perhaps it doesn't quite flow as it did originally. However, I believe that Mcgyver was trying to narrow down and focus the conversation. All 10 commandments were addressed. Starting with #1 was probably a good idea in order not to bite of more than one can chew. Do you see?

God bless,

GE

[nebula]

Please consider this in your questions, agooyers:

... Having some knowledge of the Ten Commandments, I had to contradict him and argue that in my opinion not only are the Ten Commandments incomplete as a legal system, I believe the teachings of the entire Bible do not even come close to constituting a complete and functional modern system of laws, and I believe failing to explicitly forbid rape, slavery, and pedophilia for example (in fact endorsing these things when committed against rival tribes, and also encouraging genocide against rival tribes).

In your reply statement, you are mixing concepts. Allow me to explain.

The Ten Commandments were never meant to be a complete legal system. There are chapters and chapters of Law throughout Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy that deal with more specific issues.

The Torah (first five books of the Bible) was not written in modern times so obviously it does not address modern issues and philosophies. However, we can glean principles, the "spirit of the law" if you will where "the letter of the law" is not clear.

The purpose of "the entire Bible" is not to create a legal system; only the Torah contains a legal code for a specific Theocracy. As for the purpose of the Bible, I like the explanation I have used in my sig line: "The Bible is ... the story of God making His reality known in the brokenness of our world. It doesn't end with a book called Revelation, but with a person - Jesus Himself! Scripture guides us to Him so we can know him. (John 5:40)" ~Wayne Jacobsen

Now the Torah actually does forbid rape, so that charge is false. Would you like to see the passages?

I would like to see your evidence for claiming the Bible encourages pedophilia?

As for slavery and genocide, those deserves their own separate thread (I am not saying this to brush aside the charge, but a full explanation can lead to an extensive debate all on their own).