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Samuel 15:35


Russell

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I have a question in regard to this verse. YHWH is all knowing....seeing the end from the beginning.

I was wondering why the Bible says that YHWH repented...for YHWH would have known that Saul would defy Him. In fact why even choose Saul knowing that he would rebel. Just wondering?

Edited by Russell
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I'm not sure Russel why the Bible says that YHWH repented. but if you read the scripture where the people of isreal rejected God and demanded to have a king over them you will read the prophetic warning that God told samuel to give to the people. Of course God knew what would happen even before he apointed Saul as king and everything samuel said came true.

Here it is:

1 Samuel 8

1 Now it came to pass when Samuel was old that he made his sons judges over Israel. 2The name of his firstborn was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba. 3But his sons did not walk in his ways; they turned aside after dishonest gain, took bribes, and perverted justice.

4Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, 5and said to him, "Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations."

6But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." So Samuel prayed to the LORD. 7And the LORD said to Samuel, "Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. 8According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day--with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods--so they are doing to you also. 9Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them."

10So Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who asked him for a king. 11And he said, "This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. 12He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. 14And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. 15He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. 16And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men, and your donkeys, and put them to his work. 17He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. 18And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the LORD will not hear you in that day."

He definitly does know the future.

All praise The Ancient of Days

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Definition of the word "repent" is important here, I wish I had a good working defintion in this context, however I can think of that repentences usualy requires 2 steps:

1. Being sorry

2. Doing something about it

For us that means that faith without works is dead but for God I can only think that his method was different.

Remember that "God was sorry he created man for all is evil in his heart" (Bad paraphrase of Genesis before God sent the flood to wipe out the human race) Perhaps this is somewhat the same idea as when God was sorry that he picked Saul as the king of Isreal?

I get the complications of that because God knowing Saul would mess up, He could have chosen a more worthy king (and God did, David) The people choose Saul, God chose David.

ITs the dicotomy between predestiantion (on God behalf) and freewill which he has given man.

Please lets not make this a Calvanist debate...

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I'm not sure Russel why the Bible says that YHWH repented. but if you read the scripture where the people of isreal rejected God and demanded to have a king over them you will read the prophetic warning that God told samuel to give to the people. Of course God knew what would happen even before he apointed Saul as king and everything samuel said came true.

1 Samuel 8

1 Now it came to pass when Samuel was old that he made his sons judges over Israel. 2The name of his firstborn was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba. 3But his sons did not walk in his ways; they turned aside after dishonest gain, took bribes, and perverted justice.

Thanks Adstar...yes trying to understand why God Choose Saul...then repenting (regretting) for choosing him... is hard to understand. :whistling:

On another tack...Samuel must have felt very disappointed as a father of two sons who didn't measure up. I wonder where he went wrong...or was it nothing to do with his fathering skills...but rather their own bad choices?

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I have a question in regard to this verse. YHWH is all knowing....seeing the end from the beginning.

I was wondering why the Bible says that YHWH repented...for YHWH would have known that Saul would defy Him. In fact why even choose Saul knowing that he would rebel.

Edited by borntorebel
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Hello borntorebel :whistling:

I am stretched for time but i will try to deal with your points:

"...choose you this day whom you will serve." Joshua 24:15

VS.

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Jn. 15:16

Lets look at the context of these scriptures:

Joshua 24:14-15

14"Now therefore, fear the LORD, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the LORD! 15And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Here Joshua having reached an old age and having secured the promised land was giving a speech to the jewish elders exhorting them to choose once and for all who they would serve either the LORD or the supposed gods of Egypt. It was similar to when Jesus put a challenge to us to serve one master or another but you cannot serve two masters. This was a general call to follow The God of Abraham and forsake all other Gods. This is a free will choice that the people had. Now lets compare it to the situation in John:

John. 15:16

16You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Jesus said this at the last supper, the Feast of the Passover. who was he talking to? He was talking to the Apostles, Now when He said "I chose you" was He talking about choosing them to believe in the God of Abraham? Or did He choose them for a specific task? did He not select each of them to be His followers? His Apostles? He chose them to do a specific task not to believe in God.

1 John:3 10-11

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another,

2 Corinthians :5 14-19

14For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

16Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

I am not sure where the difference is here?

As for the second scriptures you referenced, can you see that before Paul said "Now all things are of God" he was talking about how being a Christian makes us new. (born again) we no longer live for ourselves but everything is now focused on serving God. It was like he was saying " now everything we are doing is dedicated to the service of God, spreading His Word. Now i know that there is a capital letter on the "Now" and there was period before it. But do you know that the Jewish people of the time never used capital letters or periods marks at all? Someone else added these things in translation. Also much of scripture has been broken up into chapters. (that did not exist) artificially breaking up scripture. We must be mindful of this when reading scripture.

opps time has run out :thumbsup:

All Praise The Ancient of Days

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This is something that troubled me the first time I saw it. Why would God repent? If God repents, that means He made a mistake. That means God isn't omnipotent or omniscient. Now, we know from the scriptures God is omnipotent and omniscient and He doesn't make mistakes. So then, what does this verse mean?

The actual term repent means to turn from, and when the Lord turns from someone, his grace and favor are gone like the setting of the sun.

We have many problems with word usage because we use one word for several different things, that are often similiar but are not the same.

An example is the word love in our language but there are 5 words (or more)for love in Hebrew (I think that is right).

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Adstar wrote,

Here Joshua having reached an old age and having secured the promised land was giving a speech to the jewish elders exhorting them to choose once and for all who they would serve either the LORD or the supposed gods of Egyp

Actually Adstar, Joshua was also speaking to all the people of Israel; "And Joshua said unto ALL the people..." Joshua 24:2 KJV.

Jesus said this at the last supper, the Feast of the Passover. who was he talking to? He was talking to the Apostles, Now when He said "I chose you" was He talking about choosing them to believe in the God of Abraham? Or did He choose them for a specific task? did He not select each of them to be His followers? His Apostles? He chose them to do a specific task not to believe in God.

So you're saying that the disciples didn't have to believe in God? Sorry, but that's a false statement. Even Judas, who was CHOSEN by Jesus, believed in Jesus. This is proven by his grief and sorrow after the arrest and crucifixion of Jesus when he hanged himself. However, let's see if Jesus ever tells us anywhere else about only those who are chosen coming to him;

""For it is GOD which works IN YOU both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

"And he (Jesus) said, 'Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." Jn. 6:65.

So for us to will and to do of His good pleasure, God must produce that work in us. NO man can come unto Jesus unless God has first given him that ability.

I am not sure where the difference is here?

As for the second scriptures you referenced, can you see that before Paul said "Now all things are of God" he was talking about how being a Christian makes us new. (born again) we no longer live for ourselves but everything is now focused on serving God. It was like he was saying " now everything we are doing is dedicated to the service of God, spreading His Word. Now i know that there is a capital letter on the "Now" and there was period before it. But do you know that the Jewish people of the time never used capital letters or periods marks at all? Someone else added these things in translation. Also much of scripture has been broken up into chapters. (that did not exist) artificially breaking up scripture. We must be mindful of this when reading scripture.

Yes, Paul was talking about how being a christian makes us new. What Paul says though is that ALL things are of God. That doesn't mean part, or only what he's discussing now, but ALL. In the other verse, it says that those who do not righteousness are not OF God. ALL is of God. Nothing that has ever existed came into being without God being involved. It has nothing to do with capitilization of words. Paul wasn't just talking about what he had previously mentioned, or he would have said "now all of THESE things are of God." referring to what he was saying. He was speaking of ALL things.

The actual term repent means to turn from, and when the Lord turns from someone, his grace and favor are gone like the setting of the sun.

We have many problems with word usage because we use one word for several different things, that are often similiar but are not the same.

An example is the word love in our language but there are 5 words (or more)for love in Hebrew (I think that is right).

There are actually 8 words from the Hebrew that are translated into the English word 'love', and 10 Greek words translated into the English word 'love'. In my post, I gave you the meaning of the word 'repent' used in that verse. It doesn't mean what you said it means.

May God's power and peace be with you,

Ron

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Adstar wrote,

Here Joshua having reached an old age and having secured the promised land was giving a speech to the jewish elders exhorting them to choose once and for all who they would serve either the LORD or the supposed gods of Egyp

Actually Adstar, Joshua was also speaking to all the people of Israel; "And Joshua said unto ALL the people..." Joshua 24:2 KJV.

Jesus said this at the last supper, the Feast of the Passover. who was he talking to? He was talking to the Apostles, Now when He said "I chose you" was He talking about choosing them to believe in the God of Abraham? Or did He choose them for a specific task? did He not select each of them to be His followers? His Apostles? He chose them to do a specific task not to believe in God.

So you're saying that the disciples didn't have to believe in God? Sorry, but that's a false statement. Even Judas, who was CHOSEN by Jesus, believed in Jesus. This is proven by his grief and sorrow after the arrest and crucifixion of Jesus when he hanged himself. However, let's see if Jesus ever tells us anywhere else about only those who are chosen coming to him;

""For it is GOD which works IN YOU both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

"And he (Jesus) said, 'Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." Jn. 6:65.

So for us to will and to do of His good pleasure, God must produce that work in us. NO man can come unto Jesus unless God has first given him that ability.

I am not sure where the difference is here?

As for the second scriptures you referenced, can you see that before Paul said "Now all things are of God" he was talking about how being a Christian makes us new. (born again) we no longer live for ourselves but everything is now focused on serving God. It was like he was saying " now everything we are doing is dedicated to the service of God, spreading His Word. Now i know that there is a capital letter on the "Now" and there was period before it. But do you know that the Jewish people of the time never used capital letters or periods marks at all? Someone else added these things in translation. Also much of scripture has been broken up into chapters. (that did not exist) artificially breaking up scripture. We must be mindful of this when reading scripture.

Yes, Paul was talking about how being a christian makes us new. What Paul says though is that ALL things are of God. That doesn't mean part, or only what he's discussing now, but ALL. In the other verse, it says that those who do not righteousness are not OF God. ALL is of God. Nothing that has ever existed came into being without God being involved. It has nothing to do with capitilization of words. Paul wasn't just talking about what he had previously mentioned, or he would have said "now all of THESE things are of God." referring to what he was saying. He was speaking of ALL things.

The actual term repent means to turn from, and when the Lord turns from someone, his grace and favor are gone like the setting of the sun.

We have many problems with word usage because we use one word for several different things, that are often similiar but are not the same.

An example is the word love in our language but there are 5 words (or more)for love in Hebrew (I think that is right).

There are actually 8 words from the Hebrew that are translated into the English word 'love', and 10 Greek words translated into the English word 'love'. In my post, I gave you the meaning of the word 'repent' used in that verse. It doesn't mean what you said it means.

May God's power and peace be with you,

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you're saying that the disciples didn't have to believe in God? Sorry, but that's a false statement.

I want you to quote where i said that. If you cannot quote where i said "that the disciples didn't have to believe in God" then i expect a full apology. I will not have others putting words into my mouth that i have not said. I will not have fellowship with liars.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

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I didn't see that earlier borntorebel.

:42:

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