Was Jesus God?

[gdemoss]

I held your position for a long time and understand why you do. I came to believe otherwise over the last two years. Adam was not deceived according to the scriptures. He knew exactly what he was doing. You and I are at a disadvantage because we were born with sin and therefore a carnal mind. Adam however was not born as such but made in the likeness and image of God. He was given the Spirit of God, the breath of life from day one. His thoughts were pure. He knew exactly what God meant when he said that in the day that he ate of the fruit that he would die. As we can all see, Adam did not immediately die in the ordinary physical sense. He died spiritually. The Spirit of God left the temple. Adams choice to disobey God and die was made while he still had the mind of Christ. He could not simply stand back and watch his wife receive the consequences of her actions. He, just as Christ, had to choose to love his wife and give his life for her.

The bible tells us that Abraham, who was a fallen sinner, was able to conclude that God would raise up Isaac from the dead if he sacrificed him and therefore he was able to take him up on the mount and prepare to offer him. Why is it that people have such a hard time understanding that Adam knew that he himself had just been created from the dust of the ground into a living entity and that God could raise both he and his wife from the dead? After all Adam was the like figure of him who was to come.

The difference between Adam and Jesus is that Jesus is the genuine article whereas Adam was merely a facsimile. They preformed in the exact same way using the same logic. Jesus left heaven bound for the cross because he understood that he would be raised from the dead along with all those who are his. Self sacrificial love is the most amazing thing in existence. God is love.

Uh...How would Adam's participation in Eve's sin help her in any way? How on earth was his sin a form of self-sacrifice? Why would he have to die to save his wife?

Adam is associated with Jesus in only one sense--by Adam's sin of rebellion against God, sin entered the world and corrupted it; by Jesus act of obedience to God, redemption and the opportunity for holiness was presented to men. The first Adam brought death into the world; the last Adam (Jesus) brought life into the world. The moment a human is born into the world, the first Adam and his condemnation are his representatives before God. The moment that a human is born of the spirit, Jesus and his righteousness become the representatives the person.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:22

And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Romans 5:16

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Adam did indeed know exactly what he was doing; he willfully rebelled against God. God said "Thou shalt not eat of the tree" and Adam rebelled against that command by listening to his wife. Adam's act was an act of rebellion; not of self-sacrifice. Eve was tricked; Adam rebelled.

There is no scripture in the Bible that suggests that Adam's act was anything other than rebellion against God's command.

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

It is a hard concept to understand. I once thought as you. Nothing I can say will convince you until your ready to receive it. It is the same as trying to show someone that Adam and Eve sinned on day six before God looked at everything and said that it was very good. Even when shown the exact details that prove it to be true, people can't accept that. One day it will all be clearly understood by all.

[AlexanderJ]

It is a hard concept to understand. I once thought as you. Nothing I can say will convince you until your ready to receive it. It is the same as trying to show someone that Adam and Eve sinned on day six before God looked at everything and said that it was very good. Even when shown the exact details that prove it to be true, people can't accept that. One day it will all be clearly understood by all.

Don't you think that you're being a wee bit condescending?

[gdemoss]

It is a hard concept to understand. I once thought as you. Nothing I can say will convince you until your ready to receive it. It is the same as trying to show someone that Adam and Eve sinned on day six before God looked at everything and said that it was very good. Even when shown the exact details that prove it to be true, people can't accept that. One day it will all be clearly understood by all.

Don't you think that you're being a wee bit condescending?

No. Just trying to be openly honest is all. I can understand why it may appear as such. I am nothing. No better than anyone. Many good men came to me trying to show me that which I did not understand and I failed to be able to receive it until the day I was made ready. It has nothing to do with being better than anyone.

I had a real hard time with many biblical concepts. One such one was Peter calling Lot righteous. That one took time. I had to come before God and say "how can this be?". Then he had to take time to develop it with me and show me how. This stuff is hard to understand and easy to twist to ones own destruction so I have every bit of empathy for anyone who is where I was before I understood. I am nothing but an unprofitable servant. Just like the rest. Please don't be offended in me.

[GoldenEagle]

John 1 v 1/2/3: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ² He was in the beginning with God. ³ All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Kinda says it out loud here....

Yes I believe 100% Jesus on earth was God in human flesh!!

Jesus is God.

This verse only says that he was God in the beginning, not necessarily while he was here in the flesh.

This would beg the question: Can God stop being God?

He has the power to set his Godship aside and just be a human for a while.... so yes he certainly can.

How can an imperfect being die for the sins of the world?

[Guest HisG]

The 2 Jehovah Witnesses at my door in January were trying to tell me also that Jesus was not God. I begged to differ.

^{John 14 v 9:} Jesus answered: “Don’t you know Me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father?’

John 11 v 25/26: Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.²⁶ And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Matthew 9 v 4-6: Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? ⁵ Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? ⁶ But so that you might know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sin . . . .” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”

Do we believe what Jesus says about Himself or not?

Do we believe that Jesus is only God at the "beginning" or during His earthly lifetime as well?

Seems quite clear that Jesus is Who He says He is.

Your normal human male? What human can say they have the authority to forgive sins? Can say they are the resurrection and the life? Can say that whoever sees "him", sees the Father?

I know of only one person who fits that criteria - God in flesh - Jesus. (Imanu'el, Hebrew עִמָּנוּאֵל meaning "God is with us") - Isaiah 7 v 14: 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: the young woman is with child and is about to give birth to a son, and she will name him Immanuel.

Jesus was crucified basically for putting Himself on equal footing as God Himself.

I believe He is who He says He is.

[Guest HisG]

Jesus did not reject worship of Himself by others.

Jesus said in Matthew 4:10, "You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only shall you serve."

Why would Jesus say this, then on the other hand allow folk to worship Him?

Jesus allowed it because Jesus was God in flesh.

Simple.

[Guest ninhao]

I held your position for a long time and understand why you do. I came to believe otherwise over the last two years. Adam was not deceived according to the scriptures. He knew exactly what he was doing. You and I are at a disadvantage because we were born with sin and therefore a carnal mind. Adam however was not born as such but made in the likeness and image of God. He was given the Spirit of God, the breath of life from day one. His thoughts were pure. He knew exactly what God meant when he said that in the day that he ate of the fruit that he would die. As we can all see, Adam did not immediately die in the ordinary physical sense. He died spiritually. The Spirit of God left the temple. Adams choice to disobey God and die was made while he still had the mind of Christ. He could not simply stand back and watch his wife receive the consequences of her actions. He, just as Christ, had to choose to love his wife and give his life for her.

Adam and Eve ( mankind) did die physically from the day they sinned it simply took Adam until 930.

Did Eve also have a perfect mind of Christ when created ?

Gen 1:27 KJV So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The bible tells us that Abraham, who was a fallen sinner, was able to conclude that God would raise up Isaac from the dead if he sacrificed him and therefore he was able to take him up on the mount and prepare to offer him. Why is it that people have such a hard time understanding that Adam knew that he himself had just been created from the dust of the ground into a living entity and that God could raise both he and his wife from the dead? After all Adam was the like figure of him who was to come.

Adam would also have known God could raise Eve from the dead, so this point seems illogical unless you are suggesting Adam was more important to God than Eve and only Adam's death would provoke God to save mankind.

The difference between Adam and Jesus is that Jesus is the genuine article whereas Adam was merely a facsimile. They preformed in the exact same way using the same logic. Jesus left heaven bound for the cross because he understood that he would be raised from the dead along with all those who are his. Self sacrificial love is the most amazing thing in existence. God is love.

The Bible indicates Jesus succeeded where Adam failed and there is no evidence that Adam was sacrificial. The comparison between Jesus and Adam is that their actions corporately effected all of mankind.

I still don't see your logical progression.

[Guest HisG]

Exodus 3 v 14:God said to Moses, “I am who I am.^[a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

Jesus used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

Is Jesus being clear or misleading?

It's crystal clear by what Jesus states in these verses. There is no room for error.

[gdemoss]

I held your position for a long time and understand why you do. I came to believe otherwise over the last two years. Adam was not deceived according to the scriptures. He knew exactly what he was doing. You and I are at a disadvantage because we were born with sin and therefore a carnal mind. Adam however was not born as such but made in the likeness and image of God. He was given the Spirit of God, the breath of life from day one. His thoughts were pure. He knew exactly what God meant when he said that in the day that he ate of the fruit that he would die. As we can all see, Adam did not immediately die in the ordinary physical sense. He died spiritually. The Spirit of God left the temple. Adams choice to disobey God and die was made while he still had the mind of Christ. He could not simply stand back and watch his wife receive the consequences of her actions. He, just as Christ, had to choose to love his wife and give his life for her.

Adam and Eve ( mankind) did die physically from the day they sinned it simply took Adam until 930.

Did Eve also have a perfect mind of Christ when created ?

Gen 1:27 KJV So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

The bible tells us that Abraham, who was a fallen sinner, was able to conclude that God would raise up Isaac from the dead if he sacrificed him and therefore he was able to take him up on the mount and prepare to offer him. Why is it that people have such a hard time understanding that Adam knew that he himself had just been created from the dust of the ground into a living entity and that God could raise both he and his wife from the dead? After all Adam was the like figure of him who was to come.

Adam would also have known God could raise Eve from the dead, so this point seems illogical unless you are suggesting Adam was more important to God than Eve and only Adam's death would provoke God to save mankind.

The difference between Adam and Jesus is that Jesus is the genuine article whereas Adam was merely a facsimile. They preformed in the exact same way using the same logic. Jesus left heaven bound for the cross because he understood that he would be raised from the dead along with all those who are his. Self sacrificial love is the most amazing thing in existence. God is love.

The Bible indicates Jesus succeeded where Adam failed and there is no evidence that Adam was sacrificial. The comparison between Jesus and Adam is that their actions corporately effected all of mankind.

I still don't see your logical progression.

Thanks for taking time to challenge what I see. I will be working on making sure that what I see is still plausible considering what you have written.

Peace in Christ.

[GoldenEagle]

Exodus 3 v 14:God said to Moses, “I am who I am.^[a] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”

Jesus used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

Is Jesus being clear or misleading?

It's crystal clear by what Jesus states in these verses. There is no room for error.

In one word?

Clear.