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Help figure this out: 2 Samuel 24


*Zion*

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Hi guys. First off, I just want to say, I'm not looking for arguments, just some sound discussion and exchange of ideas to try and provide some clarity on this. Here goes...

2 Samuel 24

David’s Census of Israel and Judah

24 Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”

2 So the king said to Joab the commander of the army who was with him, “Now go throughout all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and count the people, that I may know the number of the people.”

3 And Joab said to the king, “Now may the Lord your God add to the people a hundred times more than there are, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king desire this thing?” 4 Nevertheless the king’s word prevailed against Joab and against the captains of the army. Therefore Joab and the captains of the army went out from the presence of the king to count the people of Israel.

5 And they crossed over the Jordan and camped in Aroer, on the right side of the town which is in the midst of the ravine of Gad, and toward Jazer. 6 Then they came to Gilead and to the land of Tahtim Hodshi; they came to Dan Jaan and around to Sidon; 7 and they came to the stronghold of Tyre and to all the cities of the Hivites and the Canaanites. Then they went out to South Judah as far as Beersheba. 8 So when they had gone through all the land, they came to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days. 9 Then Joab gave the sum of the number of the people to the king. And there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men who drew the sword, and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men.

The Judgment on David’s Sin

10 And David’s heart condemned him after he had numbered the people. So David said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done; but now, I pray, O Lord, take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have done very foolishly.”

11 Now when David arose in the morning, the word of the Lord came to the prophet Gad, David’s seer, saying, 12 “Go and tell David, ‘Thus says the Lord: “I offer you three things; choose one of them for yourself, that I may do it to you.”’” 13 So Gad came to David and told him; and he said to him, “Shall seven[a] years of famine come to you in your land? Or shall you flee three months before your enemies, while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days’ plague in your land? Now consider and see what answer I should take back to Him who sent me.”

14 And David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Please let us fall into the hand of the Lord, for His mercies are great; but do not let me fall into the hand of man.”

15 So the Lord sent a plague upon Israel from the morning till the appointed time. From Dan to Beersheba seventy thousand men of the people died. 16 And when the angel[b] stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, “It is enough; now restrain your hand.” And the angel of the Lord was by the threshing floor of Araunah[c] the Jebusite.

17 Then David spoke to the Lord when he saw the angel who was striking the people, and said, “Surely I have sinned, and I have done wickedly; but these sheep, what have they done? Let Your hand, I pray, be against me and against my father’s house.”

The Altar on the Threshing Floor

18 And Gad came that day to David and said to him, “Go up, erect an altar to the Lord on the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite.” 19 So David, according to the word of Gad, went up as the Lord commanded. 20 Now Araunah looked, and saw the king and his servants coming toward him. So Araunah went out and bowed before the king with his face to the ground.

21 Then Araunah said, “Why has my lord the king come to his servant?”

And David said, “To buy the threshing floor from you, to build an altar to the Lord, that the plague may be withdrawn from the people.”

22 Now Araunah said to David, “Let my lord the king take and offer up whatever seems good to him. Look, here are oxen for burnt sacrifice, and threshing implements and the yokes of the oxen for wood. 23 All these, O king, Araunah has given to the king.”

And Araunah said to the king, “May the Lord your God accept you.”

24 Then the king said to Araunah, “No, but I will surely buy it from you for a price; nor will I offer burnt offerings to the Lord my God with that which costs me nothing.” So David bought the threshing floor and the oxen for fifty shekels of silver. 25 And David built there an altar to the Lord, and offered burnt offerings and peace offerings. So the Lord heeded the prayers for the land, and the plague was withdrawn from Israel.

Now, the same story is told again in 1 Chronicles 21, but it begins like this:

1 Chronicles 21

The Census of Israel and Judah

1 Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 2 So David said to Joab and to the leaders of the people, “Go, number Israel from Beersheba to Dan, and bring the number of them to me that I may know it.

Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Or not? Was it satan's or God's instigation? Was it David's fault? And what was the mistake here? Pride? Doubt in God? Ignorance? What is going on here?!!!

I seek to understand and learn.

Blessings!

Edited by *Zion*
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Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the Lord our God. Psalm 20:7

This was a huge sin, a virtual slap in God's face, instead of putting his confidence in the Lord to fight for them, King David trusted in the number and strength of his army. The commander of his army, Joab, saw this and tried to persuade him against it.

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Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Or not? Was it satan's or God's instigation? Was it David's fault? And what was the mistake here? Pride? Doubt in God? Ignorance? What is going on here?!!!

At first glace I have to say that if the Word says it, it's so. So I have to say that both God and Satan had a part in influencing David to do this. Also he's held accountable for doing this so again, even though he was influenced by outside forces again, he did it, and it was wrong, so it's also his fault. I have to agree with what He giveth more grace says above about what the sin was in doing this.

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Ok, so if David had decided against it, he would have been in the right, correct?

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Ok, so if David had decided against it, he would have been in the right, correct?

I'm thinking yes but again, it's only an opinion. I'm a believer in free will and I don't think God forces us to do anything, especially something that's sin.

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In numbering his troops he committed unbelief, indeed saying that God wasn't enough.

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Alright, but what about this: why David; who throughout scripture prays to be kept from sin, to be made pure and seeks refuge in God alone? Why not use one of his enemies, or inflict said judgement just the same? After all, it was the people God was angry with. Or was He angry with David too? If so, He could have accomplished with same results without extra sin being committed, right? I'm not trying to demand an answer from God, I just want to understand...

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Alright, but what about this: why David; who throughout scripture prays to be kept from sin, to be made pure and seeks refuge in God alone?

We could ask the same about his affair with Bathsheba, his murder of Uriah, or his refusal to deal with his delinquent children. I think we may have a hint of the answer in Romans 7:

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members

So we see that even though David desired to serve God and be righteous, he, like all of us, had another law at work in him.

Why not use one of his enemies, or inflict said judgement just the same? After all, it was the people God was angry with. Or was He angry with David too? If so, He could have accomplished with same results without extra sin being committed, right? I'm not trying to demand an answer from God, I just want to understand...

For these last questions, I got nuthin. :noidea:

There are lots of smart folks around here though. Someone will have an answer for them. :)

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And I think it's also written somewhere that God does not ever tempt us to sin, is that right?

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David was human like we are and although we know not to sin... we allow ourselves be tempted into sin occasionally, like David did. The difference being, when God punished David, he fell prostrated and begged forgiveness. He didn't try to blame anyone else or blame God for not keeping him from sin. David knew his weakness, that is why he pray to be kept from sin. However, when David did sin and was punished, he never complained about it.

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