III. Legalism: You May Have Legalism(And Not Even Know It)In Your Life

[bornagain2011]

Butero,

I think I agree with you. I have been reading my Bible and really studying it for the last oh...6 hours now. The Bible talks about Grace, but it also talks about us striving for holiness. Jesus said that the ones who keep His commandments are His friends. But, He knows we are not perfect, and keeping the law itself will only lead to failure with out Jesus, that is where grace comes in.

I decided I had to read the Bible and seek God about this today instead of listening to other people. I think the Devil likes to use the "free pass to sin" card to deceive Christians and drag them to hell, or at least preach it to other people so they get dragged to hell.

To profess Jesus as Lord and Savior with our mouths and mind is one thing....but to actually follow Him and OBEY Him as sheep is to love Him and know Him with our hearts.

There is scripture that says "Forgive others, so the Father will fogive you." Sounds pretty cut and dry to me. I don't doubt there will be thousands of "Christians" going to hell. If you are not born again and do not truley love the Lord with your heart, mind, and soul, you will not strive for holiness, you will think of your salvation as a free ticket to sin.

Thank you for that. I spent several years in a Holiness Church when I first got saved. Later on, the Pastor split from his wife, and he did a complete 180 in his doctrine, and started preaching the anti-legalism, perverted grace message. He would spend all his time coming against people judging others. After awhile, I was becoming confused, so I decided to seek God for the answers. Was his new message true, or his old message? I went back and re-read the Bible for myself. I spent many years studying the message of Paul, regarding the law and grace. I realized that what most are preaching today is not scriptural. We are told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, so I don't think God will accept ignorance as an excuse on judgment day, especially with Bibles being so available in America. Too many people are too ready to accept the word of commentaries and tv preachers for all their answers, rather than seeking God himself and the Bible. Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to be our teacher and guide, but when you look to God for the answers, people criticize you and call you cult like.

Anyway, I am glad you are seeking answers for yourself. I pray that God will lead and guide you into all truth. God bless.

Thank you.

Right now I am battling with something yet again, I am a divorced woman, I came to know Christ after my divorce. I am engaged now to a christian man, but I am unsure if I am doing right in the eyes of God. My ex husband committed adultary while we were still married , but I was in the divorce process. I don't know if this is grounds for remarriage or not. The Bible says one can not divorce excpet for the cause of adultary, and a man who marries a divorced woman commits adultary. So I don't know if Jesus meant even if the woman's ex husband cheated on her she still wouldn't be able to remarry. I really really want to do what is right.

Am I being "legalistic" here? You don't have to answer, it is a little off topic. I just didn't want to start yet another thread about this.

[GoldenEagle]

Legalism is probably the greatest tool of satan to keep Christians from living victorious lives in Christ. All of us have been tainted by legalism. It left some very great wounds on my own Christian life and experience. I've been saved for over 20 years and some things I'm still recovering from.

This reminds me of a book by C.S. Lewis entitled "Screwtape Letters." (See: http://www.screwtape.com ) In it there is discussion in the form of letters between a senior demon in telling a junior demon in how to keep people from being saved or if Christians how to keep them from being ineffective. Legalism (using the definition I've given) is one of those tools.

There's a new book by Randy Alcorn entitled "Lord Foulgrin's Letters" that has a more modern twist on C.S. Lewis's idea. (See: http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/1576738612 )

I agree to a certain extent all of us can allow legalism to creep into our lives. God is big enough to help us see through the lies of legalistic thinking.

[GoldenEagle]

I will try to respond to the rest of the posts (Butero, Sevenseas, BornAgain) later on today. Need to finish getting ready for church.

Please remember to respect each other in the love of God. Please consider your words before posting. Please discuss the topic and not the person. Just because someone disagreed with you doesn't mean they're attacking you as a person. It is possible to disagree with someone without outright insulting them. http://www.worthychristianforums.com/uploads/emoticons/default_smile.png' alt=':)'> Please review the WCF ToS before post further in this thread.

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

For those who might be interested: Legalism is not a new concept. Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan published in 1678 actually has a character that is called Mr. Legality. Mr. Wordly Wiseman tries to convince Christian that instead of the Gate/Cross (Jesus) he should seek out Mr. Legality to get rid of his load (sin). Here's an excerpt...

From: http://thestarman.pcministry.com/lit/pilg/Pilgrim2.html

Now, as Christian was walking solitarily by himself, he espied

one afar off, come crossing over the field to meet him; and

their hap was to meet just as they were crossing the way of each

other. The gentleman's name that met him was Mr. Worldly

Wiseman, he dwelt in the town of Carnal Policy, a very great

town, and also hard by from whence Christian came. This man,

then, meeting with Christian, and having some inkling of him ——

for Christian's setting forth from the City of Destruction was

much noised abroad, not only in the town where he dwelt, but

also it began to be the town talk in some other places —— Mr.

Worldly Wiseman, therefore, having some guess of him, by

beholding his laborious going, by observing his sighs and

groans, and the like, began thus to enter into some talk with

Christian.

<snip>

Wrld. "Why, in yonder village —— the village is named Morality

—— there dwells a gentleman whose name is Legality, a very

judicious man, and a man of very good name, that has skill to

help men off with such burdens as thine are from their

shoulders: yea, to my knowledge, he hath done a great deal of

good this way; ay, and besides, he hath skill to cure those that

are somewhat crazed in their wits with their burdens. To him, as

I said, thou mayest go, and be helped presently. His house is

not quite a mile from this place, and if he should not be at

home himself, he hath a pretty young man to his son, whose name

is Civility, that can do it (to speak on) as well as the old

gentleman himself; there, I say, thou mayest be eased of thy

burden; and if thou art not minded to go back to thy former

habitation, as, indeed, I would not wish thee, thou mayest send

for thy wife and children to thee to this village, where there

are houses now stand empty, one of which thou mayest have at

reasonable rates; provision is there also cheap and good; and

that which will make thy life the more happy is, to be sure,

there thou shalt live by honest neighbours, in credit and good

fashion."

Now was Christian somewhat at a stand; but presently he

concluded, if this be true, which this gentleman hath said, my

wisest course is to take his advice; and with that he thus

further spoke.

Then Christian meets Evangelist again on the road who directs him back on his journey to the Gate (Christ).

From: http://thestarman.pcministry.com/lit/pilg/Pilgrim2.html (cont.)

And now he began to be sorry that he had taken Mr. Worldly

Wiseman's counsel. And with that he saw Evangelist coming to

meet him; at the sight also of whom he began to blush for shame.

So Evangelist drew nearer and nearer; and coming up to him, he

looked upon him with a severe and dreadful countenance, and thus

began to reason with Christian.

<snip>

EVAN. "And what said he then?"

CHR. "He bid me with speed get rid of my burden; and I told him

that it was ease that I sought. And said I, 'I am therefore

going to yonder gate, to receive further direction how I may get

to the place of deliverance.' So he said that he would shew me a

better way, and short, not so attended with difficulties as the

way, Sir, that you set me in; 'which way,' said he, 'will direct

you to a gentleman's house that hath skill to take off these

burdens,' so I believed him, and turned out of that way into

this, if haply I might be soon eased of my burden. But when I

came to this place, and beheld things as they are, I stopped for

fear (as I said) of danger: but I now know not what to do."

EVAN. Then said Evangelist, "Stand still a little, that I may

shew thee the words of God." So he stood trembling. Then said

Evangelist, "See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if

they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more

shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from

heaven." He said, moreover, "Now the just shall live by faith:

but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in

him." He also did thus apply them: "Thou art the man that art

running into this misery; thou hast begun to reject the counsel

of the Most High, and to draw back thy foot from the way of

peace, even almost to the hazarding of thy perdition."

Then Christian fell down at his feet as dead, crying, "Woe is me,

for I am undone!" At the sight of which Evangelist caught him by

the right hand, saying, "All manner of sin and blasphemies shall

be forgiven unto men. Be not faithless, but believing." Then did

Christian again a little revive, and stood up trembling, as at

first, before Evangelist.

[Sevenseas]

How on earth does one attack legalism? je ne comprends pas (French: Translation - I do not understand)

Whoops...sorry for the extra work I created with my French blurb.

I think what Butero is saying, which I agree with, is that we need to keep God's moral laws which are written on our hearts...on everyones hearts even non-believers.

The other stuff that was from the old covenant about sacrifices and what foods to eat/not eat, are all legalism and do not matter anymore.

A true Christian who has the Holy Spirit in them will strive to keep the moral laws God gives us, we will strive for holiness. But repentance is still important, so is prayer, and humbling yourself with fasting. These are acts of worship.

See, expressions like 'a true Christian' often means the person saying it, is pointing a finger at someone else and saying they are not a true Christian.

Who is a true Christian? According to the legalistic viewpoint, if you are a woman and you wear slacks, you are not a true Christian... a legalistic person states that God considers you an abomination

Is that what you believe?

If I wear a dress every day for the rest of my life that will not make me righteous. If I wear jeans every day for the rest of my life, follow Christ and live for Him, and believe His sacrifice

is sufficient, then I am righteous in the sight of God.

How do you possibly come to the conclusion that if someone disagrees with a legalistic view they believe they have freedom to sin? No one here thinks that.

[Sevenseas]

back to butero

sevenseas in blue

We have imputed righteousness. The law simply revealed sin. The law condemns everyone who tries to keep it and the law judges those who judge others by the law.

This is just a false statement. When we first accepted Christ as Lord and savior, we did have all our past sins washed away, and therefore became righteous in the sight of God. From that point forward, all unintentional sins are under the blood till they are revealed to us, and then we must confess them to receive forgiveness. All wilful sins make us unclean in the sight of God, and remain spots on our spiritual garments till we repent. The law does not condemn those who try to keep it and it does not condemn those who judge others by the law. That is just a completely false comment.

It seems you are saying that you believe that the law forgives sin. No one can keep the law; therefore, if someone wants to live by the law, it is the law that judges them. No one here is continuing in sin if they are a Christian. However, a legalistic person always believes that they need to do something more than the next person in order to secure their salvation. That is just not in scripture Is there a disconnect here? You appear to believe that someone who does not agree with legalism cannot be saved because they are sinning. That is a false premise; no one here has stated they sin, live in sin or believe they have freedom to sin. You may consider something a sin, but God does not condemn those in Christ.

1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. Gal 5

Circumcise your heart...not your flesh...the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

To understand this, you have to look at what kind of laws Paul was speaking about. He was not speaking of the entire law, but ceremonial laws that were given to show Israel's separation from the unclean idol worshiping gentile nations. Circumcision was just such a law. There is no way he was saying it was ok to break all the other moral laws. If that were the case, you wouldn't have him giving us a list of conduct that will prevent us from inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven more than once.

Circumcision was a whole lot more than just another law. It was a sign of separation...which is why Paul says to circumcise the heart and not the flesh. It means that you no longer are a part of the world.

No one has stated they are sinning and breaking God's laws.

Jesus said "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.

Matt 23:27

This is not even what Jesus said. What he said was, "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe and mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." What you did was take one small portion of the text out of context.

That is exactly what was said by Jesus. Outward appearance and keeping laws do not make one holy. Perhaps you might read it in context and not just take out a couple of verses. I actually posted the verses in context and in order I don't know why you say otherwise. It really serves no purpose to try and change what is meant by a whitewashed tomb. It obvious that is it the outward hypocrisy that Jesus is referring to. Of course if the heart is circumcised, then it would not be hypocrisy. The other problem with the religious leaders is that they thought no one else was as holy as they were and of course Jesus also refuted that too.

Someone will say that a woman wearing slacks is an abomination

What God says is, "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God." Deuteronomy 22:5

The strangest part here, is that men did not wear slacks then either. Again, either keep all the law or forget the law and believe what the Bible teaches about salvation which has nothing to do with a set of laws or rules. The intent of this law was to maintain distinction between the genders...note that both sexes wore dress like apparel so there is no possible way that slacks made for women can be taken to mean an abomination. AS a woman, I do not wear my husband's clothes nor am I manlike in any way and the same applies to him with regards to his gender. It is unfortunate that the legalistic interpretation goes further than the actual meaning of the text.

Edited February 19, 2013 by GoldenEagle
<<< To fix quotes and split the post as there were too many quotes as one single post. >>>

[Sevenseas]

If you are a man, do you cut your sideburns? Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard. Lev.19:27

What this actually says is, "Ye shall not round the corners of your head, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard." This doesn't say that a man can not cut their sideburns. Even if it did, it is irrelivant to whether or not women should wear pants? All it would mean is that men need to stop cutting their sideburns. This is a tactic many like to use to justify their own sins. They simply point out the faults of others and say that since they aren't doing right, that somehow makes their sins ok.

I really fail to see why you seem to think anyone is justifying sins. No one is doing that. It does, however, seem to be a concern you may have so you can let that one go. No one has stated they

are continuing in sin. The relevancy may actually be a consideration for someone who is a legalist. I'm certainly not bothered by it on behalf of my husband and neither is He.

I don't know who the 'they' are in your post, but since they appear to be somewhere else, perhaps you might stop referring to them. They are not here.

Do you wear clothing made from two kinds of material? That is breaking the law too “‘Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. Lev 19:1

Once again, this is irrelivant. Notice what you said. You said "That is breaking the law too." That means you are acknowledging it is breaking God's law for women to wear slacks. What you are doing is saying that since people wear clothing made of two kinds of materials, that excuses your sins. It doesn't. If it were a problem, it would mean that nobody should wear clothing made of two kinds of materials. Even so, there is a simple answer to this. There are three kinds of laws in the OT. Laws dealing with God's standard of holiness, laws dealing with the Levitical Priesthood, and laws dealing with Israel's separation from the unclean gentile nations. This fits into the last category. It had no purpose but to show separation, and since the gentiles are now part of the family of God through faith in Christ, it no longer applies. It fits into the same category as circumcision and clean and unclean foods.

No, what I am saying is that is just as convenient for me to tell you to obey all the law as it is for you to choose and pick which parts you care to obey.

I really do not agree with your apparent disassembling of the law and picking and choosing which parts you think are still valid.

Circumcision was actually part of the covenant and so it actually held more importance than what you appear to acknowledge.

I am not sure that you actually understand that we keep the law anyway when we do the things that are right.

As I asked, did you really think I couldn't answer these simple questions? I have been dealing with people like you for as long as I can remember. You have admitted it is sinful for women to wear pants, but you then said others were sinning too. I have explained why some laws apply and others don't. I have barely scratched the surface in explaining this. Even though I have given you the basic principles, I will go a little further. Lets look at the three types of laws again.

Your attitude is showing. (see bold in italics and underlined) It is not a good attitude. I dealt with the pants issue above and thankfully I do not have to deal with you on personal issues.

Edited February 19, 2013 by GoldenEagle
<<< To fix quotes. >>>

[nebula]

Getting the discussion back to the OP, rather than trying to define "legalism" -

3. If you fall short because in your mind you need to be a better person, you haven’t prayed enough, or you don’t have enough faith.

I do believe that. We should all strive to do better. That is not the same as saying a person isn't saved because they aren't where they should be. It is just to say most of us can do better.

The issue, though, isn't about "working out your salvation...." No one questions, doubts, or argues this.

What #3 states is that when you fall short, your solution is you rather than Jesus.

If your fruit seems withered to you, do you strive to produce better fruit, or do you strive to open your channels to let the life from the Root and the Vine flow through you to produce that better fruit? See the difference?

4. If you believe God is predisposed to be angry with you because you are a sinner and let’s face it He knows you can do better.

I believe he becomes angry with us when we wilfully choose to sin, but not that he is predisposed to be angry simply because of human failures. None of us can live up to God's standard of holiness, but we do anger him when we simply choose to rebel.

What if your sin is a bad habit you just can't break? What if your sin is something like wrath (Gal. 5:20) that you can't overcome because of unhealed wounds of your past that you can't come to peace about (most self-defense mechanisms such as this come from unhealed wounds, but most people are not aware of this)?

Is God in a constant state of anger over such people?

6. If you focus more on your fellow Christians [x, y, z, and f] rather than getting to know others and accepting them where they’re at in their walk with the Lord.

Regarding [x], we are just told [such-n-such]. While I believe in [y], I don't [ya-da ya-da]. My only concern with [z] is [this and that]. With regard to [f], [thunk, thunk, thunk].

I've shortened it this way for a reason. Re-read the statement.

Are you more concerned with x,y,z, and anything else in fellow Christians than you are in getting to know others and accepting them where they’re at in their walk with the Lord ?

Consider this, how much did Jesus focus on x, y, & z with "the woman at the well," vs knowing her, accepting her, and drawing her into God's heart? Did He even tell her to change anything outwardly?

[saved34]

This is just a false statement. When we first accepted Christ as Lord and savior, we did have all our past sins washed away, and therefore became righteous in the sight of God. From that point forward, all unintentional sins are under the blood till they are revealed to us, and then we must confess them to receive forgiveness. All wilful sins make us unclean in the sight of God, and remain spots on our spiritual garments till we repent. The law does not condemn those who try to keep it and it does not condemn those who judge others by the law. That is just a completely false comment.

Butero, there is no such thing as "trying to keep the Law". Scripture is clear that if you seek to keep the Law of Moses, you must keep the whole law and not offend in one point.

Jas 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

There is also no such thing as a believer being "unclean" in the sight of God. Yes, our feet get dirty in this filthy world, but we are clean "every whit". We are declared righteous by God himself. In fact he has Called us, he has Glorified us, Justified us, and issued a challenge to any who could stand before him and bring an accusation against one of his beloved saints.

Rom 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

When we speak against legalism we are not speaking for a lawless lifestyle. We are speaking against those who teach contrary to the pure Gospel of God's grace. The Law of Moses was given to condemn, to show man his need for a savior, not to save. It would be like using your mirror to wash your face, it is only designed to show you how dirty you are.

Gal 3:19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

Keeping the Law of Moses in any capacity is an entirely different economy. It is not the Righteousness that God requires, and it is the exact opposite of faith.

Rom 3:21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

Gal 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."

God did not save us so we can have a clean slate and keep the Law of Moses, he saved us and joined us to himself. He has freed us from the law so that we can serve him by the power of the Holy Spirit. Something that could never happen by trying your best to keep the Law of Moses. The book of Collossians calls that "weak and beggarly" religion.

Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?

Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.

Any man or woman truly touched by the wonderful grace of God will hate sin, and not use grace as an excuse to sin. Legalism will only lead to more sin in a persons life. Where as Grace teaches a person to deny this world, and live Godly lives, and gives the strength to do so.

[Guest]

How on earth does one attack legalism? je ne comprends pas (French: Translation - I do not understand)....

The same way they attack anything else. They speak evil of it. The bigger question is, why does one attack legalism? Jesus taught us that if we want to be great in his Kingdom, we will keep and teach the least commandments. That is legalism. It is strict adherance to God's laws....

Live By The Law

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 3:19-20

Die By The Law

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5

Drop The Pride

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Romans 3:27

Live By Faith By Hope

Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. Jeremiah 17:7

And You Be Washed Clean

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

And Will Know The Love Of God

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. Jude 1:24-25

~

Believe

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

And Bless The Lambs

He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. John 21:17

For Salvation Is Of The LORD

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

And Sin Is Of Men

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

Love, Joe