III. Legalism: You May Have Legalism(And Not Even Know It)In Your Life

[nebula]

In regard to #3, that is an excellent point Nebula. We should walk in the Spirit, and allow him to work in our lives that we would bear good fruit. At the same time, we are told to resist the devil and he will flee from us. I believe the Holy Ghost brings God's Word to our remembrance when we are tempted, and walking in the Spirit means that we choose the right rather than the wrong. That still involves effort on our part, because there are times the temptation can be strong.

In regard to #4, you make another good point. Most of us struggle with habits of some kind. There are times where there is a struggle, and deliverance doesn't occur overnight. That is particularly the case with smokers, alcoholics and drug addicts. Is God angry with them when they give in to temptation? I don't think he is pleased with it, but that doesn't mean they are instantly a castaway. I believe that if God sees they are really trying, and they keep confessing and asking for God's help, there is grace available to them. Paul spoke of some kind of thorn in the flesh, and I have often wondered if it wasn't some kind of battle with sin. It was a messenger of Satan that was buffeting him, and he doesn't elaborate on exactly what that means? He also spoke of personal struggles in Romans 6.

Well, here's something to consider - do you consider yourself a sinner who is striving to become righteous by the sweat of his brow? Or do you consider yourself a saint made righteous by the blood of the Lamb who needs to overcome the desires of his old self?

In regard to #5, Jesus was witnessing to the woman at the well. He knew what it would take to get her attention, because he is God. He knows everything. He knew that the way to reach her was to tell her about her life. I don't have that ability to know everything about everyone I meet. I don't know if that would be a good example of how we deal with others? Lets look at 1 Corinthians for a moment. Did Paul focus on the sins of the man and woman in adultery and incest, or did he tell the church to turn them over to Satan? Did he try to know them better, where they were, or tell them a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

OK, but you still didn't answer the key point:

Are you more concerned with x,y,z, and anything else in fellow Christians than you are in getting to know others and accepting them where they’re at in their walk with the Lord ?

In the example you gave, Paul was dealing with blatant and severe sexual immorality. That's different from every little nit-picky detail we tend to "fix" each other over.

[Tinky]

all unintentional sins are under the blood till they are revealed to us, and then we must confess them to receive forgiveness.

ALL sin is willful! You don't "accidentally" fall into sin. It always begins in the heart.

Matt 15:18-19 Jesus said, "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.”

So, if believers die with unconfessed sin, they are not forgiven, and go to hell? After all, nothing "unclean" will ever enter heaven. Right?

So, you believe it's pretty much up to us to keep ourselves saved?

If so, you are the epitome of a legalist.

Salvation by works never worked, and never will. Salvation is a GIFT. You cannot earn a gift, or it will no longer BE a gift. And if you must work to keep the gift, again, it is no longer a gift.

Edited February 19, 2013 by GoldenEagle
<<< To fix quote. >>>

[Sevenseas]

all unintentional sins are under the blood till they are revealed to us, and then we must confess them to receive forgiveness.

ALL sin is willful! You don't "accidentally" fall into sin. It always begins in the heart.

Matt 15:18-19 Jesus said, "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man. "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.”

So, if believers die with unconfessed sin, they are not forgiven, and go to hell? After all, nothing "unclean" will ever enter heaven. Right?

So, you believe it's pretty much up to us to keep ourselves saved?

If so, you are the epitome of a legalist.

Salvation by works never worked, and never will. Salvation is a GIFT. You cannot earn a gift, or it will no longer BE a gift. And if you must work to keep the gift, again, it is no longer a gift.

What I'm talking about...and most others as well....when you have a wall in front of you, you tend to think there is nothing on the other side

Salvation is a gift...that we except...and unlike so many other gifts, it keeps expanding and gives more and more

Edited February 19, 2013 by GoldenEagle
<<<To Fix quote... >>>

[nebula]

Here is the problem Nebula, and what some don't seem to understand. What you may think of as nit-picky, others may see as serious sin and immorality.

But isn't that the mentality of the Pharisees?

10 And it came to pass , as Jesus sat at meat in the house , behold , many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? 12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth , I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.(Matt. 9)

When you look at God, Butero, do you see Love, or do you see a Rule book?

When you hear the world "love", do you envision "suffereth long," "kind," "envieth not," "vaunteth not itself," etc.; or do you envision obedience?

When you hear the words "righteousness" and "holiness", do you envision attitudes of the heart or do you envision behavior?

But what does the Scripture say about righteous behavior that lacks love?

Do you worry more about the woman wearing pants than the woman who talks about everyone else (gossips) or the man who is self-absorbed (arrogant, boastful, proud)?

Is your idea of the perfect church one where people dress proper, talk proper, own only KJV Bibles, and the like? Or is your idea of the perfect church one where people minister to each other, take care of each others' needs, build each other up?

Which action do you hole more dear - discipline or compassion?

[enoob57]

Here is the problem Nebula, and what some don't seem to understand. What you may think of as nit-picky, others may see as serious sin and immorality.

But isn't that the mentality of the Pharisees?

10 And it came to pass , as Jesus sat at meat in the house , behold , many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? 12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth , I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.(Matt. 9)

When you look at God, Butero, do you see Love, or do you see a Rule book?

When you hear the world "love", do you envision "suffereth long," "kind," "envieth not," "vaunteth not itself," etc.; or do you envision obedience?

When you hear the words "righteousness" and "holiness", do you envision attitudes of the heart or do you envision behavior?

But what does the Scripture say about righteous behavior that lacks love?

Do you worry more about the woman wearing pants than the woman who talks about everyone else (gossips) or the man who is self-absorbed (arrogant, boastful, proud)?

Is your idea of the perfect church one where people dress proper, talk proper, own only KJV Bibles, and the like? Or is your idea of the perfect church one where people minister to each other, take care of each others' needs, build each other up?

Which action do you hole more dear - discipline or compassion?

The two cannot be separated... because of The Who of God compassion for Righteousness must be at all

costs (The Cross)... thus we have Our Lord Jesus Christ defined as The Only One Who can disperse mercy by

transferring His Righteousness to others! We by receiving this mercy shall in return emulate, however imperfectly

(for we are still in the presence of sin and its practice... we fail Him), yet in this reality we are kept broken and contrite -

always in the need of His righteousness over our own. We have to guard against the acceptance of sin as we emulate

mercy to others and that 'IS' the discipline of life in Him! Love, Steven

[GoldenEagle]

Okay guys I just spent almost 2 hours with the formatting on this thread. That was just so I could go back and read what was said...

Please include the name of the person you are quoting at the very minimum for future reference. Or name them in your posts. This helps the discussion flow easier and allows others to follow what is being said.

Also, if you were following this topic you'll need to click the button again on the top right because I accidently cleared everyone off the list when trying to split posts.

God bless,

GE

[Tinky]

Butero, you said;

You are wrong Tinky. All sins are not wilful. Hebrews 10:26 says,

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, their remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

If there were not a difference between wilful sins and sins done because of error, the Bible wouldn't say that. In the OT, they were called presumptuous sins verses sins done in ignorance. We all fall short of God's glory, just because we are human, and you don't lose salvation because of unintentional sins. The Bible tells us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, so yes, it is up to us to stay on that narrow path that leads to the strait gate. Jesus said that. Paul said that when he said he keeps his body in subjection to Christ so he won't be a castaway.

I must respectfully disagree. Ignorance won't work in a human court and it doesn't work in God's. Also, If salvation were up to us to keep, we'll all end up in hell.

I don't even mind the name legalism anymore. Jesus said that if we want to be great in his Kingdom, we will keep and teach the least commandments. That is legalistic. It requires keeping the law. This whole term "legalism" is man-made false doctrine. It is just something someone came up with to attack anyone that says we must live right in order to remain saved. Paul gives a whole list of behavior that will keep us from inheriting the Kingdom of Heaven in 1 Corinthians 6:9,10. Those are laws. People have been fed these lies so long and believe them because they never thought to question them. Go back and read your Bible again, at least the New Testament, and straight through. Look at all the "things" that will keep you out of heaven. Do you know of Christians that do those things? Who do you believe? The preacher that says they have eternal life, or the Bible that says they have no inheritance in God's Kingdom?

Butero, you can't keep the Law. Nobody can. The Law was intended for one purpose, to show us that no one can earn their way to heaven. The Bible says it's our schoolmaster - meant to bring us to the cross and no further. Salvation is of God - not us. If it were, we'd share God's glory, but God makes it clear, He shares his glory with no man.

I respect your knowledge, and your devotion, but in this case, you are in error.

[GoldenEagle]

I believe it was Augustine who said something to the effect of...

In essentials let there be unity.

In non-essentials liberty.

But in all things love.

[nebula]

But what does the Scripture say about righteous behavior that lacks love?

Why don't you tell me? I am not sure what passage you have in mind?

1 Cor 13:3 - And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned , and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

The reason I spend so much time on clothing and appearance is because few others will do it.

Side debate, but not everyone agrees that pants by default "pertaineth to a man," and nothing in the Bible can be used to tag such.

Jesus said that love is the fulfillment of the Law. Now I can explain to a young woman how dressing in a short skirt and tight low-cut blouse is not loving because of how it provokes men to lust. However, I cannot conceive of any explanation for how dress slacks or the like violates love (and I'm not including tight jeans, which would be classified with the mini skirt or the long skirt with an exposed leg slit).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Something else I was thinking: you have stated that you believe it is love to point out to people what is wrong with them that they might repent, or what you perceive to be wrong with them, correct? Something I hope you consider: people perceive you to be legalistic and continually try to point this out to you that you might repent. Do you perceive their judgment against you as love? If all that someone says about you is what they consider to be your faults, do you perceive their actions as love?

I belonged to a small house church for a few years where the whole principle of working out perfection was a top priority. On the surface that may sound great, but every slight incorrect action, every incorrect word spoken (and I don't mean "bad" words, just words that are mis-applied or misspoken), every mistake, every whatever was pointed out and rebuked and judged. Members were viewed through the lens of their sin nature, not their new nature in Christ.The fruit of such was a belief that God was continuously mad at us. Is this love?

[Sevenseas]

Galatians chapter 3...simply believe that it says what it says and ONLY what it says...do not be deceived and do not listen to those who teach that the law or parts of the

law must be observed. That is not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. That is NOT the Good News!

Those who are in Christ have stopped sinning and do not have the desire to sin as God has placed His Spirit within us. You cannot stop sinning by dressing a certain way

and you cannot stop sinning by judging others. God no longer sees you as a sinner if you have accepted Jesus as your Savior and you believe that He died for your sins

and you believe that God raised Him up on the third day.

It is simple and just as God imputed righteousness to Abraham because Abraham accepted by faith...that is he BELIEVED God, so also our faith makes us righteous

in the eyes of God and that is the only thing you need to believe concerning salvation, righteousness and new life in Christ. From that point, we grow in grace and

we continue in Him...He is the Vine and we are the branches.

Faith or Observance of the Law

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

6Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.” 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

God's Word does not return to Him void. Consider then, what Paul wrote to the Galatians. Do not let another judge you....only Christ can impute the righteousness that is acceptable to God,

else He died in vain. Do you accept His sacrifice or do you try to add to it? God's grace is sufficient for each one of us.

This thread has gone way off course. The intent of this thread was to discuss heart attitudes that may be legalistic and it has been taken over and degenerated into a personal

one on one conflict that has no fruitful discussion and never resolves.