Generation of Thomas

[firestormx]

John 20:24-27

²⁴ Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. ²⁵ So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

²⁶ A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” ²⁷ Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

First and foremost, this is not directed at anyone here. I have met people in my real everyday life who appear like this, as I'm sure you have as well. But I would be untruthful if I didn't say I've been left with this impression here as well.

I'm looking to understand. It just seems, that unless someone has experianced something for themselves then it can't happen. People say, " healing ( or tongues, near-death experiances, dreams, visions, insert your preferance) isn't for today." They'll tell you your wrong, your lying, misinformed, speaking false doctrine, until they get healed ( or tongues, near-death experiances, dreams, visions, insert your preferance). Then it's for today. Then it's biblical. It's not biblical until it happens to them. Until it happens to us it's wrong. Really?

How have we gotten to the point, that unless we have something happen to us, unless we experiance it, then it's wrong, and condemned as not for today? Where is the Faith? People will even use the bible to support every position possible in this regard. How did we become a generation of Thomas, and justify this as God's will?

[joi]

Perhaps this is a part of the falling away forestormx. There are many things that we will cease to do in the act of falling away and

this attitude is most likely a part of it.

[firestormx]

Perhaps this is a part of the falling away forestormx. There are many things that we will cease to do in the act of falling away and

this attitude is most likely a part of it.

Intresting thought. I hadn't thought of it like that. I started this partly because I was wondeering if it was just me that saw this. Thanks for the comment.

[Sevenseas]

Some really good and thoughtful questions here Fire...the kind I like...controversial no doubt...but I like having my mind engaged, so.......

In some ways this might be directed at all of us at one time or another. Funny you should ask, because it was just two days ago I was alone in the house (I relish alone time cause I can

pray out loud...sing...whatever...without interruption or worrying about my private time with God being overheard

So, I just really wanted to make a connection to Jesus....I wanted to hear from God and I prayed, read and then put on a worship CD ...now I do not go asking for experiences because that

is, IMO, a sure way to get one....not necessarily from God, but I digress (you may have got that impression from me already haha)

I did not have my eyes closed and I was not even praying, but just when the music cut in, I saw this in my mind...with my eyes open...I was looking at a shattered mirror on the ground...I mean

it was in PIECES.....sharp shards, big pieces, little pieces and it had obviously been a big mirror. As I was considering this, I was thinking how am I going to repair that? I have to repair it or

I cannot see myself. I cannot see who I am!

I can't remember if my name was called or exactly what next....but I turned (still all in my mind's eye) and I saw Jesus...well a figure representing Him so no details...but I looked right into His face

and He said "You don't have to repair the mirror...you don't have to see yourself to be yourself...look at me.....see yourself IN me. That, is who you are.

See, I feel like I have kind of lost myself...the person I was before all kinds of junk happened (I don't mean some sin that has put me off track) but just all the details of my life...so much of it

not what I really wanted....so I have been, had been, praying that I want to feel like I used to feel...I want to have a grasp on myself (if that makes sense) I guess I have had a very strong self

identity and because of loss both of people I have loved and circumstances, I feel like I am not who I want to feel I am...I use the word feel but I think I mean identity?

What I saw happened in a just a few seconds time period...but somehow all that I have shared was conveyed in just several seconds. Everything clicked inside of me and I said yes...and then

I thanked God for answering me in a way that made perfect sense to me and at the same time I could know He heard me....there is no way I could make that up.

The mirror represented my life and the brokenness of it the way I was seeing my life. Jesus basically told me that my life is in Him. I wanted an answer one way, but received an answer that put

a whole different slant on even the question. Am I now walking around going yipee? LOL!...no...but now I see my perception was off and I have to go forward letting go of what the Lord,

apparently, tells me I do not need.

What I am saying in relating this, is that God is personal. He will answer us in a way we will understand...as He did with Thomas and He understands why we are weak in our belief but still hoping

or why we need 'proof'.....I believe there are two things going on..some are genuine and some are not of the spirit they believe them self to be.

Every single one of us is totally and absolutely dependent upon the Lord for salvation and understanding. I know God sees our hearts and that is, IMO, why Jesus personally addressed the

doubt of Thomas and had Thomas touch His wounds. Faith is a funny thing...it seems some people have so much they can't believe what others do not believe (I am not saying this about anyone)

and some come limping and say 'help my unbelief'.

What I am thinking, is that if you say you believe the Bible, then you should believe all of it........there are some parts that are not black and white but God knows about those...as pertains to

the gifts, I would state that we should believe because there does not seem to be any mystery about them with regards to the explanations given to us. Some people attack tongues...it really

does seem to be a target and I think that may very well be because we are praying in the power of the Holy Spirit and according to the will of God...so prayers we know God will answer. The

devil does not want us doing that, so he attacks the spiritual reality of this gift.

Can it be abused? Absolutely...some people will act out of their flesh and corrupt the gifts.......but people can corrupt anything so that is no surprise.

So, having experienced what I have during my lifetime...........I know both the reality of God and the reality of the devil. I believe we need to be careful because deception is rampant....but,

we still must seek and God will answer...I believe He will find a way to answer us in a way that makes Him undoubtedly real as pertains to us individually. It is the heart of the person that God

looks in when He decides what that person will receive.

Long answer...I have been thinking out loud.

[firestormx]

I believe He will find a way to answer us in a way that makes Him undoubtedly real as pertains to us individually. It is the heart of the person that God

looks in when He decides what that person will receive.

Long answer...I have been thinking out loud.

I agree God will answer each of us in a personal way. I think that is a good thing. Helps make our releationship with him personal, and also to bring us peace. Like he did for you. Also I agree, tongues does seem to be an easy target, and I think your dead on with the reason. But it can be any subject. It just seems that until we see it, until we do it, until we live it, it is evil and false doctrine. Jesus asked the question once, " When I return, will I find faith? " . The more I think on this subject, the more I ponder the same question.

Thanks for your comment. Gives me a lot to think on. God Bless you

Firestormx

Joseph

[joi]

Good post sevenseas, thanks for your insight

[Guest]

<snip>

I'm looking to understand. It just seems, that unless someone has experienced something for themselves then it can't happen. People say, " healing ( or tongues, near-death experiences, dreams, visions, insert your preference) isn't for today." They'll tell you your wrong, your lying, misinformed, speaking false doctrine, until they get healed ( or tongues, near-death experiences, dreams, visions, insert your preference). Then it's for today. Then it's biblical. It's not biblical until it happens to them. Until it happens to us it's wrong. Really?

How have we gotten to the point, that unless we have something happen to us, unless we experience it, then it's wrong, and condemned as not for today? Where is the Faith? People will even use the bible to support every position possible in this regard. How did we become a generation of Thomas, and justify this as God's will?

A big part of that bolded section is probably due to the falling away, as joi said. Folks just won't believe. With all the world's secular humanism, moral relativism, etc. its not hard to see how folks get to a place where they just don't believe in anything any more. I've met a lot of them at the university where I work. They are some of the most jaded folks you ever want to meet -- and they don't care about Jesus either. There's something else too.

I'm speaking here as a believer who's been around the planet more than once as a child in an Army family, and while I was in the Air Force and afterward. I've lived in a lot of places and been deployed to a whole lot more at one time or another, and I've visited many, many churches over the years in the process. I say all that to say this: I've seen so many of the doctrines you mention abused so badly for so long in mostly (American) churches that I'm extremely skeptical when a "testimony" is told. Have a look at ( a certain prosperity gospel TV network ) during their fund raising telethons, and you'll see a great example of tithing being abused for example, never mind the prosperity gospel itself. Oh, the glowing testimonies of how problems were solved -- all because folks sent money to the ministry! (And, yes. I do tithe when I am able to do so.)

I believe firmly that God heals today and that the gifts of the Spirit are still with us. I just have a huge problem with how so much of the wonderful things Jesus died to give us have been so sorely abused by so many for so long. So it might seem like I don't believe at first while I ask a few questions. Why? Because I'm probably trying to figured out whether or not what someone just told me lines up with scripture or not. (I've heard some really outlandish things in my time! ) Some folks forget that we have an enemy who is very experienced at getting our eyes off Christ and on to an "experience" or something else. I've learned through my own experiences of being led astray to be careful . . . but that doesn't mean I think God doesn't do miracles any more. It just means I'm trying to see if something I've been told is silver and gold, or just junk, and sometimes its really hard to do so.

[firestormx]

I believe firmly that God heals today and that the gifts of the Spirit are still with us. I just have a huge problem with how so much of the wonderful things Jesus died to give us have been so sorely abused by so many for so long. So it might seem like I don't believe at first while I ask a few questions. Why? Because I'm probably trying to figured out whether or not what someone just told me lines up with scripture or not. (I've heard some really outlandish things in my time! ) Some folks forget that we have an enemy who is very experienced at getting our eyes off Christ and on to an "experience" or something else. I've learned through my own experiences of being led astray to be careful . . . but that doesn't mean I think God doesn't do miracles any more. It just means I'm trying to see if something I've been told is silver and gold, or just junk, and sometimes its really hard to do so.

Thanks for the post. You gave me some things to think about. I do agree that there is a difference between making sure our eyes are on christ and everything lines up to the word and refusing to accept something biblical simply because it hasn't happened to us.

[gdemoss]

A generation of doubting Thomas's. Is there a reasonable explanation? Yes. Erosion.

Satan was judged at the cross. He made his fatal error but that didn't stop him from seeking to undo that judgment. As any criminal seeks to get off of the charges against them, he has been working diligently to avoid his future judgment by introducing a technicality that he might skip off on. He sent the beast because he knows his time is short. The sign has appeared in the heaven and the clock is ticking. He must destroy God's people and seek to achieve rulership over the earth without provoking Christ to come down from above. If he were to succeed in his venture to become the physical God on earth ruling over man then his fate of the lake of fire will have been averted.

This ties in to why we have all become a bunch of doubting Thomas's. Satan works over generations. Those who are born have to be reborn and grow themselves. It takes time before one begins to understand what has happened through the years and where one is on the timeline of human history. We, the doubting Thomas's, have been born into a serious problem and are simply acting accordingly to that which prevails in the church, which is division and therefore doubt and the need to have proof. It isn't the first time Satan used this tactic to destroy God's people.

Eze 14:1-5 ¶ Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me. And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them? Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

How many versions of Christ are out there today? How much reason do we have to doubt each point of doctrine today?

Nothing brings about the constant need for personal experience to believe anything more than carnality and choice. The garden of Eden secured this flaw in humans called the opinion. Possessing the ability to declare something good or evil by our own standard wholly separate from God is our hindrance to believing. Everyone of us without exception is led by his heart and what is in it. We act according to our 'image' of God combined with the spirit that leads us. Depending upon that 'image', wisdom, knowledge and understanding each of us has, we can discern better what is or isn't truth but only if we have the Holy Spirit as our guide. Even David, who had the Holy Spirit, was led astray through the flesh. I have not become infallible simply because I have the Holy Spirit in me. I have been misled many times since receiving. This fact alone causes me to even doubt my own experiences and I diligently seek to interpret that which I experience against the word of God.

Our only hope is in a loving God to lead and guide us into the truth. We are told to speak evil of no man. Before we condemn what another has said, we had better be quite sure that he isn't speaking by the Holy Spirit. Especially in light of tongues. As I had a man that I was driving to Michigan begin speaking that which I could not understand. He said it was tongues. I said OK. I don't know what the man was speaking but I do know that I could not understand it. Even if I myself were to be moved to speak this way, I don't know that I could trust that it was tongues as my own speaking would be unfruitful to my understanding. Thank God it is not a salvation issue that I know and understand this but rather I simply am not to condemn that which I don't understand. On a side note, I went home and was listening to Micha'el Ben David who sings in both English and Hebrew, and I recalled that the sound of the Hebrew tongue is very close to what the man in my truck sounded like.

So what do I do? How do I go about seeking to live and do the will of God in a world filled with many deceptions and counterfeits? I simply go about seeking to live in the divine nature through the power of the Holy Spirit, living selflessly for God almighty, offering my body as a living sacrifice to do his will. I understand that those who do otherwise are more prone to being in error than those who do and that I can bank more on the truth coming from the mouth of one who is self sacrificial in nature than the one who simply seeks to find some new way to live it up and entertain themselves each day. Thanks for the topic as it provoked me to thought and also to good works.

[firestormx]

Nothing brings about the constant need for personal experience to believe anything more than carnality and choice. The garden of Eden secured this flaw in humans called the opinion. Possessing the ability to declare something good or evil by our own standard wholly separate from God is our hindrance to believing. Everyone of us without exception is led by his heart and what is in it. We act according to our 'image' of God combined with the spirit that leads us. Depending upon that 'image', wisdom, knowledge and understanding each of us has, we can discern better what is or isn't truth but only if we have the Holy Spirit as our guide. Even David, who had the Holy Spirit, was led astray through the flesh. I have not become infallible simply because I have the Holy Spirit in me. I have been misled many times since receiving. This fact alone causes me to even doubt my own experiences and I diligently seek to interpret that which I experience against the word of God.

Thanks for the comment. There have been a lot of thought provoking responses to my question by everyone, and you just added to that. Thanks. As I said before, this is something I've noticed and wondered if I was the only one who saw it.

Without faith it is impossible to please God....

When Christ returns, will he find Faith......????

Firestormx

Joseph