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Adam And Eve - Just An Allegory?


Tinky

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Guest shiloh357

No, you have not provided the argument requested. 

 

I have made the ONLY argument that NEEDs to be made.  I idon't need to make a philosophical argument.   You need to believe the Bible.

 

 

 

You made the philosophical claim that evolution entails atheism. You should support that claim. This is a simple request based on common decency in a debate. If you don't have the philosophical grounds on which to base your claim, just withdraw it. We won't judge. It is a very difficult (I would even say impossible) claim to make. 

 

Evolution is impersonal according to the ToE.  It is unguided, unplanned and wholly naturalistic.  The very nature of the theory precludes God.  It really isn't very hard to understand.  But you have an agenda that entails skewing the Bible and the ToE.  

 

 

Saying that the majority of evolutionists are atheists is irrelevant. As I said: "Even if 99.99999% of biological scientists believed that evolution implies that metaphysical naturalism is true, if they lack a philosophical and logical basis for it, they have no justification."

 

It's completely relevant.   Why are all of them wrong and you are right???   Like I said, you and bary really don't know what you are talking about and this debate proves that your entire platform about Genesis being allegorical is all about pushing your bizarre version of Evolution that no reputable scientist will touch.

 

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No, you have not provided the argument requested. 

 

I have made the ONLY argument that NEEDs to be made.  I idon't need to make a philosophical argument.   You need to believe the Bible.

 

 

 

 

 

You made the philosophical claim that evolution entails atheism. You should support that claim. This is a simple request based on common decency in a debate. If you don't have the philosophical grounds on which to base your claim, just withdraw it. We won't judge. It is a very difficult (I would even say impossible) claim to make. 

 

Evolution is impersonal according to the ToE.  It is unguided, unplanned and wholly naturalistic.  The very nature of the theory precludes God.  It really isn't very hard to understand.  But you have an agenda that entails skewing the Bible and the ToE.  

 

 

Saying that the majority of evolutionists are atheists is irrelevant. As I said: "Even if 99.99999% of biological scientists believed that evolution implies that metaphysical naturalism is true, if they lack a philosophical and logical basis for it, they have no justification."

 

It's completely relevant.   Why are all of them wrong and you are right???   Like I said, you and bary really don't know what you are talking about and this debate proves that your entire platform about Genesis being allegorical is all about pushing your bizarre version of Evolution that no reputable scientist will touch.

 

You mistake methodological naturalism used by scientists and metaphysical naturalism (the claim you are backing). I can still hold the scientific method of discovery using methodological naturalism without holding to a metaphysical naturalism position.

 

Once again, I see no philosophical argument in support of your claim. Support it or withdraw it. There is no middle ground here. 

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..... Here is the problem. I am not a biologist with a Ph.D. nor do I claim to be an expert in evolutionary theory. I don't think bary would claim these credentials either. In fact I think we are both proud to be in our respective fields. However, I do recognize something that you have somehow overlooked. This is not an issue of what a few scientists you met think evolution implies. Even if 99.99999% of biological scientists believed that evolution implies that metaphysical naturalism is true, if they lack a philosophical and logical basis for it, they have no justification. The argument must be made, from a philosophical level, that evolution implies metaphyscial naturalism in order for us to say that God and evolution cannot exist in the same universe. This argument has yet to be made. 

 

~

 

The Problem Is

 

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

 

Most So Called Smart Men Are Rejecting Christ

 

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

 

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:9-14

 

For A Heaping Pile Of The World's Foolish And False Food

 

Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Isaiah 45:9

 

And Are Proudly Calling All Believers To Bow Down To Their Dream God Of The Cosmos Dust

 

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen. 1 John 5:21

 

For Shame

 

Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. Mark 8:38

 

~

 

Believe

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

And Be Blessed Beloved

 

Love, Joe

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Once again, I see no philosophical argument in support of your claim. Support it or withdraw it. There is no middle ground here.

 

~

 

I See You Are Right

 

He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Matthew 12:30

 

There Is No Middle Ground Here

 

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

 

~

 

PS: There Will Be No Withdraws

 

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 1:3-6

 

In This War

 

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

 

These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. Jude 1:14-16

 

You See

 

~

 

Believe

 

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

 

And Be Blessed Beloved

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. John 6:47

 

Love, Joe

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Due to personal attacks this thread is closed for review and clean-up.

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Cleaned this one up.

Debate the subject not the person. Remember it is possible to disagree with someone without insulting them. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God!

FYI. Next time this thread will remain closed.

 

God bless,

GE

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I see where you're coming from with this and I don't think it's a nontrivial consideration. I think it is possible though for God to reference the creation account to bring across a message without the account being true in a historically factual way, but true in what God wants to communicate to use about the nature of creation and the nature of God. We can be held in remembrance of God's sovereignty over nature for instance.

enoob's reply-That would be parables and this is likened unto this... so forth. We must have the grammatical structure in hermeneutics

to allow us the privilege of this consideration! It is not given us in His Word with the Genesis account...  I believe why the Genesis account does not accommodate the Scientific laws

is to bring to a unity of first and last issues Of Who God 'IS'- The Son in Creation and The Son in miracles....

I honestly think the plain sense of 24 hrs in the account is undermined by the fact that the terms involved were used before the sun was created. Further there is other language in there that doesn't seem possible to take literally, such as talking about:

enoob's reply- not being sarcastic in any way but couldn't be that God wanting us to know even though no sun existed He was still using the same meter as though it did on the day He made it to be so...

and very well to the point that we would not put any other time to it- like the gap theory!

And God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."  And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

enoob's reply-  The Garden of God lost to man... one thing we know for sure Adam and Eve were naked 24 -7 and were not aware of their condition

something was controlling that thermostat! :)  In the flood water from above and from beneath flooded the entire planet 15 cubits (18 to 22 inches per cubit)

above the tallest mountain... where did all that water come from?

What waters? This seems to say that the sky was made when God made a space in waters, so that there ought to be an expanse of waters outside the sky. But we know that isn't the case unless you take a rather radical position with regards to how the physical world works.

enoob's reply- there has been suggested a canopy of water that filtered out harmful UV rays of sun and maintained the thermostat to perfection but conjecture

and just one more item that makes my heart burn to be with Him and know these great things He has done! That we tore up!

The other thing is that the creation account is formulaic, makes use of alliteration and so on, now that stuff in itself doesn't mean it shouldn't be taken as a historical account but it does open the door to other possibilities.

 

Ultimately from my view this is the crux:

 

Isa 45:18  For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it empty, he formed it to be inhabited!): "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

 

And the chapter goes on to talk about drawing close to God, turning to him for salvation. The question in my mind then is, when I read the Bible, should I be looking *primarily* for scientifically accurate accounts, or even overly focused on historical happenings (though obviously I think the large majority of it is historically accurate), if the Bible uses these accounts primarily to communicate to us the greater reality of God's existence, sovereignty, purpose of our existence and so on. I'm not against discussing these things, but they could only have a secondary type of importance.

please expand on this before I reply...

 

Love, Steven

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Here's one of my favorite verses about the creation that is an example of this:

 

rom 1:20-21 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

I am not a person who struggles with what is unlikely to be known... when there is much that can be! I do not want to give an account to Him for

overlooking the that which is for my knowing & obedience because I spent more effort in trying to figure out what is not clearly taught! I think this

might be what God 'IS' warning us here

2 Tim 4:3-5

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires,

because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears

away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions,

do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

NKJV

 

As to the Romans passage yes God in His righteousness has Proclaimed Himself to all peoples so no one will have an excuse! I always think

of this verse with the one you cited

1 Cor 13:12

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

KJV

This coming from a man whom God chose to pen a little less or more of our NT...(depending on whether Paul is the writer of Hebrews)

We will never have a place for scholarly pride...  Love, Steven

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Guest shiloh357

Enough has been shown in this thread that the ToE is at the heart of the "allegorical" approach to Genesis 1.   Evolution cannot be reconciled with the Bible as written, so a new approach to the Bible has to be championed in order to force the Bible to accomodate Evolution.

 

The entire "allegorical": approach is NOT about arriving at a correct interpretation about Genesis.  It is not about a search for the truth.  Quite the opposite.  It is a rejection of the truth for the sake of a worldly agenda that seeks to erase the image of God from the earth.

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Enough has been shown in this thread that the ToE is at the heart of the "allegorical" approach to Genesis 1.   Evolution cannot be reconciled with the Bible as written, so a new approach to the Bible has to be championed in order to force the Bible to accomodate Evolution.

 

The entire "allegorical": approach is NOT about arriving at a correct interpretation about Genesis.  It is not about a search for the truth.  Quite the opposite.  It is a rejection of the truth for the sake of a worldly agenda that seeks to erase the image of God from the earth.

Actually, it is precisely about that! Your dogmatic statements do not really carry authority for those who wish to humbly and genuinely search for truth and enlightenment.

Edited by Gandalf
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