The Ten Virgins - What is the parable about? Matt 25

[Guest]

Hi Omegaman,

I want to start by saying that you shouldn't feel stupid about any of this. It is a profound mystery, just as the apostle Paul said. I appreciate you taking the time to tell us your feeling on these things, but I must tell you that I disagree with your over-all view.

I agree that His coming will be immediately after the tribulation. However, there are two different types of "coming" that need to be addressed here. In Matthew 24:30-31 Christ is coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. From there He sends His angels with a great sound of a trumpet to gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mark 13:27 gives us a much clearer view of this as it shows the elect traveling upward, not coming down.

Nice to meet you again rollingthunder, and thank you for your thoughtfull and educational reply to my post. Yes, no problem with the above, we meet him in the air:

14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Notice that in the passage above, it says that God will bring with Jesus, those who have died. That sounds downward to me, but I could be wrong. Bring is toward us, take is away from us. The point is, we are going up to be with Him. Passage also mentions angels and trump, so I think we are on the same page there. However, the passage states He comes down, and we go up, and does not say whether we come down with Him, or we go up with Him after we meet in the air.

I basically disagree with you about the two different types of coming. I find the one where Jesus comes again, after the tribulation, where He gathers the elects, from the earth, the living and the dead saints, and brings us to earth with Him, but I cannot find the other one. The only distinctions I notice in comings, are the words used, primarily parousia (coming alongside, coming to be present) and ercomai, (I come, I go). Context though as always, will generally tell you what is meant, but the Greek can shed light as well.

Mark 13:27

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Again, it does not state in that verse, what direction we go from that meeting, up or down.

This is not Christ' second coming to the earth, for then He will be bringing the saints with Him when He comes. Instead, this coming is the one He promised His disciples in John 14:2-3. This coming to receive His elect to Himself must occur before His second coming to the earth, when Christ returns as the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords with His saints.

I hope I am misunderstanding you, but it looks to me like you are saying that in that verse (Mark 13:37) that that is not Jesus second coming to the earth. I must be misunderstanding you because immediately before the verse you quoted we see exactly what this is describing:

24"But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

(the upper case letters above are from the NASB, not my doing) The fact that verse 27 begins with "and" connects it to the verse before it, so it is saying "After the tribulation, things happen and Jesus comes in power and glory and gathers His elect. 100% consistant with what I am saying and what I believe.

John 14:2-3

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

[3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This coming is also known as His appearing.

I do not disagree with you, as far as I can tell all verses and passages about Jesus coming are at His revelation or His appearing.

2 Timothy 4:1

I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

Matt. 24:30 has the sign of the Son of Man appearing in heaven. At that time He is coming to judge, but judgment must first begin with the house of the Lord (1 Pet. 4:17). Matthew chapters 24 and 25 shows the beginning and ending of His judgments that will be made in the passage below:

Revelation 11:18

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

But you are jumping the gun and getting these judgments mixed up and in the wrong order in your view.

I don't think that is the case. There are more that one sort of judgement. God can judge the earth and inflict his wrath upon it, just as the flood was a judgement, and Sodom and Gommorah were judgements. Those judgements are against a people and are not the judgement that is eternal. I am sure I do not have to convince you of that, it is for the benefit of those who might be reading this thread, who are not as well studied as you are. To that end I offer the following passage. Matt 11:23,24:

23"And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24"Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you."

This demonstrates that there is yet a judgement to come upon Sodom. I beleive this will also be the case when the Lord come in Judgment. So no, I do not beleive beleive I have my judgements confused, I am noting the distinction of punishment on earth and punishment in eternity.

You import the parable of the wheat and tares in Matt. 13 into the parable of ten virgins. Not even close my friend.

That is not quite fair, I am not importing anything, I am using the parable of the wheat and tares to demonstrate that there is a type of person, who can appear outwardly like a beleiver, but is in fact, counterfiet. Nothing more need be implied than that.

The wheat and tares are another view or a parallel to the sheep and goats, which has no relation whatsoever to the parable of ten virgins.

If it has no relation to the ten virgins, why does it start out saying "The kingdom of heaven is like . . ."?

Christ is still in the process of judging His saints in the parable of ten virgins, but in both, the (wheat and tares) and the (sheep and goats) He is judging the nations, which is the final judgment made (see passage above). The goats and/or tares are the ones that destroy the earth. Once they are destroyed, then comes His second coming and the millennium will begin. The saints will reign with the King of Kings for 1000 years. Then will come the resurrection of the dead unbelievers who will stand and be judged before the great white throne.

and in the parable of the tares and the parable of the virgins, the result is the same, weeping and gnashing of teeth for some, I think you are trying to hard to make distinctions that need not be made. A parable is only a parable after all, not everything in it has a one to one correlation with comething else. Being how parables are at times designed to obscure meaning, I prefer ones that the bible interprets, without me bringing too much into it myself. If you show me where what you are saying about them, are in the explanations Jesus gave, I am all ears, I apologize, if I am not quite as open to what you think it means. Again, as in many replies so far, my point is being glossed over and other details are being imported that I am not even talking about, except to answer off topic (to me) replies. Restating my point yet again:

"So, the answer to our question of "when?" is:

When the master comes and assigns the lazy slave to the place where the hypocrites are and there is wailing and knashing of teeth, THEN it will be comparable to ten virgins. In Matt 24, the topic is clearly not the rapture, but Jesus second coming, His glorious appearing after the tribulation. Also, we see this "wailing and gnashing of teeth language from Jesus, elsewhere in the book of Matthew, chapter 13

A physical second coming to the earth in Matthew 24 makes no sense at all.

Well, it makes sense to me, and I do not feel that you have even remotely made a case for how it does not. Making sense, is not even what concerns me, I know my ways are not God's ways, so it certainly need not make sense to me to be true. I am not interested in what makes sense as much as I am interested in what the bible actually says. Whether or not it makes sense to us, it harmonizes with all passages (not all interpretations of all passages), does not need to infer anything that is not stated, or at least does not contradict anything that is stated, that is to say it is not contradicted by scripture, and is the plainest understanding of the related passages.

I am not quite sure I even understand what your overall view is rollingthunder, so I am not sure how much we agree or disagree on other details of end times. It at least seems to me that you have Jesus coming back twice (as in the pretrib scenario), but I always marvel that no one has been able to produce a single verse that states any such notion, it is all infered in their view, but that inference is imported to the text, not extraced from it. Similar to another tenent of pretribism, which I also fail to understand, the notion of imminence, but that is another topic for another thread, and has likely already be discussed to death.

Thank you for your wonderful tone and teaching spirit.

[wingnut-]

the first verse in the parable of the ten virgins indicates that this is related to heaven, not earth.

You believe this because of the use of the words kingdom of heaven?

Yes, based on the text. The bigger question is when though. Honestly I'm not sure what to make of this parable, so I'm interested to see more input here.

[Guest]

This is a cut and paste: Kelley, Jack (2011-11-30). 7 Things You Have To Know To Understand End Times Prophecy (Kindle Locations 435-440). Xulon Press. Kindle Edition. Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by Biblica, Inc. www.xulonpress.com. Used with premission. gracethrufaith.com

"The Parable of 10 Virgins

It’s a story about 10 young women waiting for a bridegroom to come. All have oil lamps but because they’ve been waiting a long time, five have run out of oil and are trying to buy more when he arrives. Lacking oil they’re denied entry into the Wedding Banquet. This parable is sometimes used to illustrate the precarious position of “backsliders” in the Church, but even if you disregard the problem with timing almost everything about that interpretation is wrong. First, if oil is being used symbolically here, as I believe it is, then the principle of Expositional Constancy demands that it represent the Holy Spirit. This principle says that when things are used symbolically in Scripture, the symbolic use is consistent. For example yeast (leaven) always symbolizes sin, and oil always symbolizes the Holy Spirit. Can the Church lose the Holy Spirit, or exhaust our supply of Him? Ephesians 1:13 and 2 Cor. 1:21-22 both say that the Holy Spirit has been sealed within us as a guarantee of our inheritance, and that it happened solely because we believed the Gospel message. There’s nothing anyone anywhere can do to change that. But no such guarantee is indicated for Tribulation believers. In fact Rev. 16:15 specifically warns them to stay awake and maintain their righteousness, symbolized by keeping their clothes with them. (Clothing is often used to represent righteousness, as in Isaiah 61:10). Rev. 16:15 implies that Tribulation believers are responsible for remaining steadfast in their faith to avoid losing their salvation. Matt. 25:8 agrees, telling us that all 10 virgins had oil in their lamps at the beginning, but the five foolish ones didn’t have enough to carry them through. Remember, all 10 virgins are caught sleeping when He returns. It’s the oil that distinguishes one group from the other, not their behavior. Second, these 10 women are called virgins or bridesmaids, but never the Bride. Conversely, the Church is the Bride, and is never called a bridesmaid! And when did you ever hear of a bride having to plead with the groom for admission to her own wedding banquet? Third, it looks like these young women are trying to get into the Seudas Mitzvah (wedding feast) a banquet that follows the wedding ceremony. If so, none of them made it to the actual marriage ceremony, oil or not, so none of them can be the bride. In fact there’s no bride mentioned anywhere in this parable. These virgins aren’t the Church. They represent Tribulation survivors trying to get into the Millennial Kingdom. Five were saved in the time between the Rapture and the end of the Great Tribulation (signified by the oil), remained steadfast, and are welcomed in. The five without oil when He arrived did not remain steadfast and lost their place. This parable teaches that the Lord’s return signals the deadline after which even the request to be saved and receive the Holy Spirit will be denied. The door to the Kingdom will be closed, and the Lord will deny knowing those who’ve come too late."

The reason I post this is not because I believe or agree with everything that this teachers says (because I don't), but because he has said here what I believe, much more clearly than I can as I have attempted to convey this Truth in my own words in another thread.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Parker1

[wingnut-]

That's a very interesting explanation, you've given me something to think over here. There is one question that comes to mind immediately though, and that is what becomes of the five unwise virgins? My understanding is that people will still come to The Lord during the millennial kingdom, so considering that I'm assuming they still have hope.

[missmuffet]

http://www.gotquestions.org/parable-ten-virgins.html

[gdemoss]

the first verse in the parable of the ten virgins indicates that this is related to heaven, not earth.

You believe this because of the use of the words kingdom of heaven?

Yes, based on the text. The bigger question is when though. Honestly I'm not sure what to make of this parable, so I'm interested to see more input here.

The parable itself is speaking about the coming Kingdom of Heaven on Earth as I understand it. The true marriage of God and man as it was in the beginning before the fall where Adam had the Spirit of God, the very breath of God without sin in purity. Jesus, the Last Adam, is coming to receive his bride unto himself and she must make herself ready while she waits. The oil in the lamp is the Holy Spirit who illuminates the way. Most believe that the virgins are taken up to heaven where they celebrate their marriage to God but completely miss the fact that the parable ends with other virgins who come after the door is shut saying open unto us but are denied by Jesus, the groom saying "I never knew you".

The detail most miss is in those words "I never knew you". Many believe it merely signifies a relationship and go about thinking that just because they speak in his name, pray in his name and go about doing religious activities that they are having a relationship with him but the text is declaring something much deeper than that. Paul declared the mystery in Ephesians.

Eph 5:31-32 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

To be known of Christ is to have his Spirit come upon you and intimately have spiritual relations with you as a husband does a wife. I personally long for the awesome encounters where my beloved comes and fills my temple with his glory as my whole body is quickened and I have the most excellent joyful, loving, peaceful experiences that one can have. I am completely comforted and fulfilled in every sense of the word. And I ask for his presence to come and fill me each and every day having the promise from him that if I hunger and thirst after righteousness, I will be filled and that the Father gives the Spirit to them that ask. We are also admonished not be drunken with the Spirit and shame those who have not but to moderate and lead each and everyone to receiving the power of God that is given to those through the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

The reason the five foolish are rejected along with the other ones who came later is that they never truly desired to have God as their God and be filled with his Spirit. They wanted to be 'saved' but do whatever they wanted, living unto themselves instead of Christ, seeking to make the most of their own lives for personal gain. They were denied for denying him.

[Guest]

Everyone in the Millennial Kingdom will be saved at the beginning. But they will have children and they will have children. They will have to then decide whether to accept Christ as their Savior just like everyone else. The difference is that the Holy Spirit will not seal their salvation as He does the Church. That is where all the people who will join Satan to war against Christ will come from at the end of the millennium.

[Guest]

http://www.gotquesti...en-virgins.html

Thanks bopeep! Don Carson, as usual does a good job at attempting unravel the parable. I was a bit disappointed in that I think he wimped out at:

"Of interpretive significance is which return of Christ is this? Is it His return for the rapture of the Church, or is it His return to set up the Millennial Kingdom at the end of the tribuation? Dispensational scholars divide over the issue, and no attempt will be made to answer the question her. Regardless if which return it is, the lessons to be learned are relevant to both."

I think he is right on that point, but it does not take a lot of effort to point out, that the entire context points to the return at the end of the tribulation, ina number of ways.

[gdemoss]

Everyone in the Millennial Kingdom will be saved at the beginning. But they will have children and they will have children. They will have to then decide whether to accept Christ as their Savior just like everyone else. The difference is that the Holy Spirit will not seal their salvation as He does the Church. That is where all the people who will join Satan to war against Christ will come from at the end of the millennium.

Parker, do you have any scripture that backs up that children will be born in the Millennium or just using reasoning to conclude it will be such? I have not come to a true understanding of what it will be. One thing that comes to mind is that 'they will all know me from the least to the greatest' and 'man shall not have to teach his neighbor saying know the Lord'. Will there be children born who need to come to know him and accept him? I am not sure. Just like to know what you or others have on this. I know it says that a child shall lead them which indicates that children will be there but that could be children who were alive at the coming of the Lord, not sure. Thanks in advance.

[Guest]

You're reading way too much into the parable. It simply means that one ought to live prepared, as though one's master could appear at any time.

None of us are more than a single heartbeat away from eternity and it is entirely possible for any of us to get hit by a bus before the day's end. Long detailed explanations of future events prior to one's lamp running out of oil lead to slackness and Our Lord would not have it so.

Remember the KISS principle; keep it simply simple. BE READY at all times for the Lord's return.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

I appreciate that input, and I would agree with you 100% if I were looking at the parable stripped out of it's context. The context here is not simple at all. First of, it is not a parable in isolation, in is in the context of a very long passage that begins at Matt 24:1 and is not finished until Matt 25:40. That is a hugh amount of data to try to sum up with a KISS prinicple, as though all that was being said was "BE READY". The fact that Jesus took the time and effort, to lay all of this out in great detail, does not allow me to ignore the majority of what He said here. I am not comfortable taking out a little snippet, and not trying to understand everything He wanted us to get from this. Not only do all of the "thens, at that times, immediately afters, ands, so's and for's link all of these things together into a single narative, but the repeated phrases like "weeping and gnashing of teeth" and "the kingdom of God is like . . " should grab our attention and show us that this is all one extended topic, the most detailed, chornological passage in all of scripture on the events of the end times. Being that Jesus is speaking, it's authority is undeniable, and the detailed and chronological presentation, makes it the standard against which all other eschatological scripture should be compared. Many passages in scripture are easy to misinterpret, this one is not if one pays attention to the details. However, if we keep it simple, by elliminating most of what Jesus said here, then of course we make it easier for us to wrest things that Jesus said from their contexts, and apply them how we see fit, perhaps to fit a scenario we like better, than the one Jesus outlined.

Sorry, I am not going to do that.

I like your comment:

"None of us are more than a single heartbeat away from eternity and it is entirely possible for any of us to get hit by a bus before the day's end."

That is true, and it is the one sense in which I agree that we could meet Jesus at any time, and so it does behoove us to be ready always.

Keep hollering from that loft.