Reign of the Beast -genuinely Global or just the Mid-East?

[OakWood]

The reason that I asked this question is not because I needed an answer. You don't have to understand eschatology to be saved. Alll you need is to be a devoted Christian. However, some people benefit from prophecy, it helps them to keep a perspective on things. Signs of the end times can prepare us all for the worst. If God doesn't want to us speculate or look for answers then we might as well all take our Bibles and tear out the pages of Revelation and throw them away.

I know that people have their different opinions but I'm looking for holes in arguments, not to mock, but to find the answers myself. I have flexible opinions on the matter, so I have no pride in being right or wrong. Salvation is more important than anything. I'd rather be stubbornly steadfast in a belief for twenty years then have it changed at the last minutre, than stick with it if its wrong!

However, the Global or not-Global thing I think is very important. It could mean the difference between us all looking out for one thing but not for another.

Forgetting the 'Nero' bit for the time-being (was he, wasn't he? I'll get my head round that later) I'm still intrigued by this eikoumenething. I've learnt a new word today thanks to Bold Believer.

Does Eikomune still mean the World as known at the time, or does its area expand with knowledge? If so, then Eikomune today would also include North America and so on.... in fact everywhere on the planet.

Can we truly see a Global influence of colossal proportions, or should we be focussing on Israel, the Middle East and possibly Europe?

Again, this question is not life or death, but I think that it's an important one to consider. I welcome more opinions.

[OneLight]

The answer is yes, it will be worldwide. We know this when we read Revelation 13:14-17

And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

[Fez]

I am with OneLight on the worldwide thing.

Rev 13:6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

Rev 13:7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,

Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

And if not all, why this passage?

Rev_1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

[Bold Believer]

BB who is Apolyon in Revelation?

WW the whole earth is to be divided up in 10 regions not just the EU as some suggest because the Antichrist will rule the whole world. This was done by the Club of Rome.

1. NAFTA (America, Canada and Mexico) 2. The E.U. – countries of the European Union, Western Europe as a whole 3. Japan 4. Australia, New Zealand, South Africa 5. Eastern Europe, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Russia and the former countries of the Soviet Union 6. Central and South America, Cuba and Caribbean Islands 7. The Middle East and North Africa 8. The rest of Africa, except South Africa 9. South and Southeast Asia, including India 10. China (Mongolia is now included with China) The islands of the seas, for the most part, fit in with the closest regio

Apollyon is the angel of the bottomless pit. His name means 'destroyer'. He is said to be 'over' the locusts. Since I understand the locusts to be Roman soldiers, I believe Apollyon to be a spirit being leading them to destroy. That is the reason they were there: to destroy, so it makes sense that Apollyon/Abaddon would be their spiritual leader.

[Bold Believer]

BB who is Apolyon in Revelation?

WW the whole earth is to be divided up in 10 regions not just the EU as some suggest because the Antichrist will rule the whole world. This was done by the Club of Rome.

1. NAFTA (America, Canada and Mexico) 2. The E.U. – countries of the European Union, Western Europe as a whole 3. Japan 4. Australia, New Zealand, South Africa 5. Eastern Europe, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Russia and the former countries of the Soviet Union 6. Central and South America, Cuba and Caribbean Islands 7. The Middle East and North Africa 8. The rest of Africa, except South Africa 9. South and Southeast Asia, including India 10. China (Mongolia is now included with China) The islands of the seas, for the most part, fit in with the closest regio

Apollyon is the angel of the bottomless pit. His name means 'destroyer'. He is said to be 'over' the locusts. Since I understand the locusts to be Roman soldiers, I believe Apollyon to be a spirit being leading them to destroy. That is the reason they were there: to destroy, so it makes sense that Apollyon/Abaddon would be their spiritual leader.

The reason that I asked this question is not because I needed an answer. You don't have to understand eschatology to be saved. Alll you need is to be a devoted Christian. However, some people benefit from prophecy, it helps them to keep a perspective on things. Signs of the end times can prepare us all for the worst. If God doesn't want to us speculate or look for answers then we might as well all take our Bibles and tear out the pages of Revelation and throw them away.

I know that people have their different opinions but I'm looking for holes in arguments, not to mock, but to find the answers myself. I have flexible opinions on the matter, so I have no pride in being right or wrong. Salvation is more important than anything. I'd rather be stubbornly steadfast in a belief for twenty years then have it changed at the last minutre, than stick with it if its wrong!

However, the Global or not-Global thing I think is very important. It could mean the difference between us all looking out for one thing but not for another.

Forgetting the 'Nero' bit for the time-being (was he, wasn't he? I'll get my head round that later) I'm still intrigued by this eikoumenething. I've learnt a new word today thanks to Bold Believer.

Does Eikomune still mean the World as known at the time, or does its area expand with knowledge? If so, then Eikomune today would also include North America and so on.... in fact everywhere on the planet.

Can we truly see a Global influence of colossal proportions, or should we be focussing on Israel, the Middle East and possibly Europe?

Again, this question is not life or death, but I think that it's an important one to consider. I welcome more opinions.

The idea of the known world (eikoumene) in our time will necessarily be different because we know more of the nations in our world. There are of course, still parts of the world we know little of. To a first century believer, (and that's whom Revelation was written to primarily) the known world was ruled by Rome.

Daniel IS the best place to start. Daniel 9:22-30 has been called by some teachers the very key to understanding the rest of eschatology.

Trying to make fulfilled prophecies fit into timeframes for which they were never intended muddies the waters. That's why there are so many different understandings. Historical understanding is extremely important. Scripture and history go hand in hand. God is the God of history, and His Word and history agree. That's why I can say with confidence that Nero IS 666.

Patriot, Nero is NOT 'the antichrist'. He was the 666 of Revelation 13 however.

[joi]

WW if you are not familiar with Blue Letter Bible, now might be a good time to get to know it

http://www.bluelette...ria=known world

The Bible says son of perdition, not antichrist

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=son+of+perdition&t=KJV

[Littlelambseativy]

But to John the Revelator saw the "whole" world not just the known world.

With regard to Nero - there have been many 666, Nero was just one of them.

[Bold Believer]

*** edited insult poster is referring to so removing this also ***

As far as nero being the anti-Christ, I hold that is a false teaching, Nero was not the anti-Christ. While he did make people worship him, that much is true, he was not in control of the whole world. He was in control of the world known to him-but not in control of the whole world, the wold world could not have worshiped him, because they couldn't the whole world could not have known him. If you look at the original greek, in revelations 13:2-10, the greek word means entiretly-to say that it was just the "known world" is putting our own interpretation into it.

There is one more thing, that disqualified Nero, and any other emperor, or leader, known to man, from being the anti-Christ. Look at Revelations 13:2:3 "and I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the Beast."

Nero, suffered no mortal wounds-and was miraculously healed. Nor did any other Roman commander. Or US president, for that matter. Neither, did all the world worship Nero either. Scripturally, the Anti-Christ has not risen yet-and when he does, it will, indeed, affect the entire world.

Nero suffered no mortal wounds? I'd say a sword to the throat was pretty mortal. He even botched the job to the extent that his servant had to finish him off. But...Nero was only one head of the beast. (Yes, the early church of that time called Nero 'the beast', and he is the personification of the Empire for this passage, but the whole of the passage is referring to the nation of Rome itself.) Nero was seen by John having been 'slaughtered to death'. A sacrifice had its throat cut, and this is how Nero tried to do himself in. It is however the events AFTER this which are being considered. After the death of Nero, the Empire went into chaos. Nero had no appointed successor. Suddenly, there were four men claiming the throne of Caesar. These four emperors were Galba, Otho, Vitellius, and Vespasian. For a time, it appeared as though the Empire would collapse under the weight of civil war. This would be the equivalent of a civil war between four US contenders to the Presidency. People would be saying things like: "Can America survive this?" And so it was with the conditions of the Roman Empire at the time. The Empire was in a civil war for its very existence, plus, the Jewish Rebellion was going on as well. Understandably, people were wondering if Rome would survive.

[Bold Believer]

I'm more confused now than when I asked the question.

From what I can gather, I need to study the book of Daniel more, as apparently it has the same prophecies as listed in Revelation. Ok, I can do that, no problem.

It seems to me to be the most sensible option that I have been given so far.

I also need to check my Roman history and find out if Nero actually performed miraculous signs, causing fire to come down from Heaven in full view of men, deceived the inhabitants of the Earth, (I'm guessing the entire Earth, which would include Native Americans and Australian aborigines) and whether or not he forced everyone to bear a mark. I don't think that Nero did this, but I'll check anyway.

Unless of course Nero is the first Beast mentioned in Revelation 13, in which case he had a fatal wound, which had been healed and the whole World followed him because he was given authority over every, tribe, people and nation (including, I assume Native Americans and Australian Aborigines).

Either way, Nero sure knew a lot of people and not a single person on the planet failed to fall under his spell.

Then again, it's possible that the whole World doesn't mean the WHOLE world, in which case you can see why I would want to ask my original question in the first place. Also if the whole world doesn't mean the whole world then is it possible that it doesn't mean the 'whole world' later on in Revelations.

Just asking - a sensible question I think.

It's also possible that Nero is neither of the beasts mentioned in Revelation 13, in which case who are/were those beasts?

I'm not being glib here, nor am I claiming to have the answers, in fact I don't. I am genuinely confused.

I am simply reading the Bible and trying to understand what I read.

Quick note: it's REVELATION, not Revelations. (Yeah, it sounds like I'm being picky, but there is a reason for that. There is only ONE Revelation (unveiling) in the book, and it is from Jesus to John.)

Nero is a head of the Roman Beast. He is the Beast by personfication. Rulers often become synonymous with their nations. A modern example: America. Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy were all at one time, personfications of America. One couldn't really think of the USA without one of these men coming to mind during the time of their rule. And so it was with Nero.

Nero persecuted the fledgling church for 42 months. God gave him permission to do it, ostensibly to fulfill the Danielic prophecy. He (Nero) spoke blasphemous things (bringing accusations against) the God of heaven, and his Tabernacle (believers).

Nevertheless, it's not Nero who came back to life, but the EMPIRE. Nero's death nearly tore the Empire apart, but it survived. So then, it is not necessary for Nero to have died and then come back to life.

[The_Patriot21]

*** edited insult poster is referring to so removing this also ***

As far as nero being the anti-Christ, I hold that is a false teaching, Nero was not the anti-Christ. While he did make people worship him, that much is true, he was not in control of the whole world. He was in control of the world known to him-but not in control of the whole world, the wold world could not have worshiped him, because they couldn't the whole world could not have known him. If you look at the original greek, in revelations 13:2-10, the greek word means entiretly-to say that it was just the "known world" is putting our own interpretation into it.

There is one more thing, that disqualified Nero, and any other emperor, or leader, known to man, from being the anti-Christ. Look at Revelations 13:2:3 "and I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the Beast."

Nero, suffered no mortal wounds-and was miraculously healed. Nor did any other Roman commander. Or US president, for that matter. Neither, did all the world worship Nero either. Scripturally, the Anti-Christ has not risen yet-and when he does, it will, indeed, affect the entire world.

Nero suffered no mortal wounds? I'd say a sword to the throat was pretty mortal. He even botched the job to the extent that his servant had to finish him off. But...Nero was only one head of the beast. (Yes, the early church of that time called Nero 'the beast', and he is the personification of the Empire for this passage, but the whole of the passage is referring to the nation of Rome itself.) Nero was seen by John having been 'slaughtered to death'. A sacrifice had its throat cut, and this is how Nero tried to do himself in. It is however the events AFTER this which are being considered. After the death of Nero, the Empire went into chaos. Nero had no appointed successor. Suddenly, there were four men claiming the throne of Caesar. These four emperors were Galba, Otho, Vitellius, and Vespasian. For a time, it appeared as though the Empire would collapse under the weight of civil war. This would be the equivalent of a civil war between four US contenders to the Presidency. People would be saying things like: "Can America survive this?" And so it was with the conditions of the Roman Empire at the time. The Empire was in a civil war for its very existence, plus, the Jewish Rebellion was going on as well. Understandably, people were wondering if Rome would survive.

and when did this happen? and did he survive from it? from your own words, if the servant had to finish him off. Which means he did not recover. If nero was the anti-christ not only would he have recovered, he wouldnt have been finished off, and everyone would have marveled. And your still ignoring the fact, the verse that says all the world literally means all the world-not just the roman empire. he was not even a head of the beast, he was not part of the beast at all, nor where any of the other roman emperors, they were just evil men doing evil things.