7 trumpets=7bowls=7seals

[Sevenseas]

We can stand on our heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but God did not deliver Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego from the burning fiery furance (the great tribulation) before they were even cast into it.

the only time I was ever pre-trib was when I was a kid in sunday school and believed whatever they told me...

God did better...he delivered them IN the furnace and not even their clothes were touched...which, I believe was the entire point of God

allowing them to be thrown in in the 1st place

[J-Andy]

We can stand on our heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but God did not deliver Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego from the burning fiery furance (the great tribulation) before they were even cast into it.

the only time I was ever pre-trib was when I was a kid in sunday school and believed whatever they told me...

God did better...he delivered them IN the furnace and not even their clothes were touched...which, I believe was the entire point of God

allowing them to be thrown in in the 1st place

Very good observation, sevenseas. Never thought 'bout that.

I think we kind of strayed far away from the OP though (largely my fault). I found myself agreeing with just about everything bornagain2011 said there. I don't know what stance bornagain2011 has on saints being able to prophesy etc, but at least most of what she said there made sense to me.

I don't agree with this reply to bornagain2011's OP though:

... I think it is only some of the saints that receive this honor though--the overcomers, the manchild of Rev 12. Look at Daniel 7,11 & 12.

Blessings,

Deb

That whole "manchild" doctrine is full of decption, and it's being (and has been) popularized a lot. I can't even remember where it started or where I've seen it (years ago). But I remember it - it's awful stuff and basically asserts Christians are collectively Chrst (instead of Christ-like). It's dangerous and blasphemous, IMO.

[ibldcars4u]

uh...no. That thought has been posted in these forums before....the Bible says 2 witnesses...I take it to mean 2 witnesses. As in one.........and another one. Which makes 2.

That's the way I see it. I'm not saying it's "def. not" all the saints, but of all the Israelites in Egypt, only 2 were given the power of the waters, to turn them to blood - Moses and Aaron. They were also the only 2 chosen to be God's witnesses to Pharoah.

Have you considered that Ephraim was a man who became a tribe whose name was ascribed to the whole Northern Kingdom and even beyond?

In the transfiguration Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus bearing him witness. The law and the prophets.

But Ephraim and Dan were not part of the tribes of the children of Israel who were sealed. Rev 7 vs 4-8 They was omited with Levi and Joseph taking their places. the reasons are Lev 24 vs 10-16, Deut 29 vs 18-21, Judges 18 vs 2-31, 1 Kings 12 vs 26-33, and Hosea 4 vs 17. But they are restored later in time (after Rev 7) as mentioned in Ezekiel 48

In my opinion I feel these might just be the 2 witnesses (Moses and Elijah) but we will all find out whoever they are when that time comes

Edited April 6, 2013 by ibldcars4u

[Sevenseas]

uh...no. That thought has been posted in these forums before....the Bible says 2 witnesses...I take it to mean 2 witnesses. As in one.........and another one. Which makes 2.

That's the way I see it. I'm not saying it's "def. not" all the saints, but of all the Israelites in Egypt, only 2 were given the power of the waters, to turn them to blood - Moses and Aaron. They were also the only 2 chosen to be God's witnesses to Pharoah.

Respectfully, understanding the revelation of John is not conjecture...just as Jesus gave John the vision, so is He able to give all understanding...but you know, it appears He has chosen not to do that

I don't think that's fair, sevenseas. Born again is a growing saint , and the OP has a lot of very valid points , in my opinion. No one can claim to understand Revelation completely, and a lot of what a lot of people interpret, is conjecture.

uh huh...yet she has presented numerous such dreams and visions and I have had far more to do with her posts than yours....the problem is, that people who are NOT chronologically aligned with her

are saying 'you go girl' and that is very worrisome (no one actually said you go girl...I'm just summing it up) No one does understand the Revelation given to John completely and my point is it is unfolding

and we will know when we need to know...like everything else.....you may not be familar with the other site I was addressing...so you may not agree with all of my concerns

You do understand how very old John was and that he had a lifetime of experience and the ability to discern and knew Jesus personally, right? Revelation such as John had is closed I believe..

I fully agree with that. The revelation ends with a warning about adding to John's prophecy. It completes all prophecy and revelation until the return of Christ.

The gifts are given for the edification of the body. What you state, would indicate you have some kind of revelatory gift...that is the only way you could state what you do. However, the revelatory gifts are not for lone ranger prophets or those so young in Christ that they cannot discern.

Tut tut, so harsh. Be gentler, kinder. You're an elder (smiling). hmmm......it seems I am either or.......but like I said, if this was a box of chocolates, most would have been bitten into ...

hope you get the word picture...and frankly I have been gentler and kinder but that other site is what is behind my words....but thank you

We are living in the age of deception and I would be amiss to leave out the fact that Christians are absolutely gullible and open for deception...in fact, the more one peers into the spiritual realm, the more they had better understand that fact. I am probably talking Chinese to some right now

Our way is indicated in the Bible...we are not to follow dreams, signs and visions as these will increase and be an indication of the anti-Christ actually, so a person really needs to be very careful that what they are listening to and believing is actually scriptural and not just spiritual. Spiritual does not mean it is holy.

I couldn't agree more.

I can only warn...I know these words are often unwelcome. However, this is just an online forum....as we go forward, keep in mind that things will become so dark and heavy with deception, that if you fail to grasp that now, it will be too late then.

Good for you! You have my support 100%! Problem is I'm unlikely to stick around. I get totally discouraged and disheartened by any sort of Christian forums/discussions. Far too much nonsense going on in them.

I was checked in my spirit to not post in the thread I refer to regarding the other site.....and at first I followed that...but then I posted anyway and see the can of worms...it's not like I didn't know...still,

I am always wanting fellowship...but I know few listen to the warnings.....yet they are IN the Bible...

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,

II Tim 4:3

Sound doctrine is not a vision or a dream...it is what is written in the 66 books in our Bibles.

They say to the seers, "See no more visions!" and to the prophets, "Give us no more visions of what is right! Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions. Isaiah 30:10

For the time will come - There is a time coming to the Church when men will not hear the practical truths of the Gospel, when they will prefer speculative opinions, which either do no good to the soul, or corrupt and destroy it, to that wholesome doctrine of "deny thyself, take up thy cross and follow me," which Jesus Christ has left in his Church (Clarkes Commentary)..

Feelings are not an indicator of truth....truth reveals error...

Very, very true. Not much Biblical truth being taught anywhere any more. Decption is indeed growing by the day in the church. We are the church of Thyatira, following Jezebels, and every other Revelation church, having become rich.. yet there are those who remain faithful among us, and who have not lost their first love, but those are the ones living in China and Islamic countries, mainly. Few are found outside those areas. The 7 churches culminate in the end of days church and the return of the Lord.

I have learned them the very hard way. I will say this once here and then not again. What will be the greatest threat to believers...and it has got a good start...is deception...they will not know an evil spirt

seducing them from the Holy Spirit. They do not understand what satan does now and what he will do when God allows him.

I will not say this again.

Some of us have been through tribulation right here in North America...the physical experience may not be the same, but the spiritual one is. We are tried in the fiery furnace if God desires it for

His purposes...My love for God now is very different than when I first gave Him my entire life....things did not turn out the way I planned, but eternity should be written on our hearts and our hearts

should have their treasure in heaven...and no, I don't live with that thought in mind all the time...but it is there

[Sevenseas]

We can stand on our heads and whistle pre-tribulation through our noses if we like, but God did not deliver Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego from the burning fiery furance (the great tribulation) before they were even cast into it.

the only time I was ever pre-trib was when I was a kid in sunday school and believed whatever they told me...

God did better...he delivered them IN the furnace and not even their clothes were touched...which, I believe was the entire point of God

allowing them to be thrown in in the 1st place

Unfortunately that is not the case at all for the great tribulation as the scripture clearly states that a number that no one can count were put to death in the great trib , no easy path there and no free pass through , i hear people make assumptions about protection but scripture is very clear , Christians die if they refuse the mark or the number of his name

that is certainly no protection

I believe Christians who thought they were going up up and away are going to have the most trouble when it starts. I don't know why anyone would want to be around for it...I certainly don't

[Sevenseas]

I think we kind of strayed far away from the OP though (largely my fault). I found myself agreeing with just about everything bornagain2011 said there. I don't know what stance bornagain2011 has on saints being able to prophesy etc, but at least most of what she said there made sense to me.

I parted company with her when she thought that the two witnesses were all of the believers.....I don't want to say anymore.....or it may amount to gossip

well....next time I write where I feel checked not to write, may a mousetrap fall upon my eager digits as I hit the quote button

See you around and thanks

[goldust59]

LOL! Is that what you get Gary? I was talking about another site that was linked to...and I sure was not the only one who thought that site was not what it claimed to be

I'll just say what you usually say...I have not ever claimed to be an authority...but the spirit within me, seems to be directing me to say this

It happens that I actually do know what I am talking about when it comes to these dreams and visions and anyone can use the authority they have at their disposal...the Bible

The Bible does not line up with the dreams and visions...it does not give authority to the type of thing I am referring to...why is it that when someone points out such blatant

error, such as was found on that site, that they are vilified? I am not saying you are vilifying me...but I don't suppose you see that those who espouse such things are claiming

that THEY are actually the authority?

The person who has had all these dreams states that we are not allowed to examine her visitations....the minute I read or hear such a thing, I know without doubt that the person'

who claims this is not speaking for God

I base my response on the Bible...seriously, we are not allowed to examine whether or not something is from God and we should take the word of one person that they have

intimate contact with God and we are not allowed to question anything?

The Bible says the exact opposite! People are fond of quoting Joel and I have no problem with that...but they seem to forget all the warnings about deception and the fact

that satan comes as an angel of light...there are far more warnings about the deception and false prophets then there are passages urging us on to ever greater and higher

spiritual experiences ...

I have written quite a bit in this forum about using the mind God gave us to be aware of deception and the many forms it takes...and that will not stop as it is in total

keeping with the word of God

I have not made false claims or told everyone what God is going to do...I have written when something does not line up with the Bible that people should use caution

I would be careful about thinking others may think themselves the personal messenger of God...you may have changed your mind on your own timeline, but I told you right

from the start, along with many others, that we did not think it was going to happen

You know, some of us actually do know what we are talking about...some of us do have gifts and try to use them as God intended

It can be really tricky to try and address someone on an issue you perceive that they have without condemning yourself in the process. You may not realize it but you come across in your post as being one who has absolute authority from God on the issue and have been sent as his personal messenger to correct those who are in error. Did you realize that?

I actually realize alot of things Gary which is why I don't talk about everything I know...but as Patriot said, if he owned this site, he would have removed the link

and I couldn't agree more.

If you ever see me writing God told me to tell you, remind me of this post, and I will eat my computer

Sevenseas, This thread is not about "the other site". You made it plain in the other thread how you viewed it, so would you give it a rest here & not derail this one further. The other thread is still up, if you have further comments about it. Thanks.

[Qnts2]

Have you considered that Ephraim was a man who became a tribe whose name was ascribed to the whole Northern Kingdom and even beyond?

Moses could very well represent the law while Aaron the prophets, as it is written, And Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

In the transfiguration Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus bearing him witness. The law and the prophets.

Judah is my lawgiver says the Lord. Blessed are you when you are persecuted like the prophets who came before you says Jesus unto his disciples at the Mount.

Why can it not be those who are of the law as one witness and those who prophesy by the spirit as the second witness?

If we consider the singularity of the words used to be our problem then shouldn't we consider that bride is singular in number though we be many?

I confess, I do not have this all figured out. I do not bring 'a word' from God. Only questions that cause me to pause and reflect.

Peace in Christ.

I have mediated in my heart over that also in the past, and haven't ditched the possibility, or the possibility that the 2 witnesses are 2 individuals:

(Isa 43:10) Ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and My servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He; before Me there was no God formed, neither shall any be after Me.

(Isa 43:11) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me there is no saviour.

(Isa 43:12) I have declared, and I have saved, and I have announced, and there was no strange god among you; therefore ye are My witnesses, saith the LORD, and I am God.

Yes, there's Israel (Ephraim) and Judah. Ephraim was exiled to the nations, and has never returned, yet God promised Israel (Ephraim) that they would be returned to the land together with the house of Judah, and the two sticks would become one stick in the hand of Ephraim:

(Eze 37:19) say into them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them unto him together with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand.

The prophecies surrounding the restoration of Ephraim were quoted by Peter and Paul in reference to the Gentiles:

(Rom 9:24) whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations?

(Rom 9:25) As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved."

(Rom 9:26) And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God."

That prophecy quoted by Paul in its O.T context referred to Ephraim - the Northern tribes.

So I don't ditch what you are saying, nor do I ditch the fact that of all the Israelites in Ehypt, only 2 were given power over the waters, to turn them to blood, and they were also the 2 chosen to be God's witnesses to Pharaoh.

When the two kingdoms were divided with two kings, the areas were often referred to by the two largest tribes; Ephraim and Judah. Ephraim had the bulk of 10 tribes (assuming Joseph's children, Manassah and Ephraim and split separately for 13 tribes), and that was only initially. So Ephraim was also called the Kingdom of Israel because it had more tribes living there. Judah had the tribe of Judah, Benjamin and most of Levi. As time went on, and due to the corruption of the Northern Kingdom, some of each of the 10 tribes moved south to Judea (the name of the southern Kingdom was Judea). When the Northern Kingdom was scattered thru multiple attacks by Assyria, some more of the 10 tribes escaped by running to Judea.

When Babylon captured Judea, and carried off the inhabitants, they captured all 12 tribes living in Judea. Babylon called the captured people 'Jews' as they were from Judea.

When the Jews were allowed to return to the land after 70 years, they were in touch with some of the scattered from Assyria, and some of all 12 tribes returned to the land of Israel to rebuild the Temple. They made a sacrifice for all 12 tribes, and for that sacrifice each tribe had to provide and animal for sacrifice for their own tribe.

All 12 tribes are referred to as the children of Israel or the nation of Israel. In Hebrew, the word for nation is 'goy' and the word for nations is 'goyim' which of course is plural. So the nation of Israel would be the goy of Yisrael. In Hebrew, there is no word for gentile. Gentile means not-Jewish. To determine in scripture if the word goy(im) is referring to nation(s) which are not children of Israel/Jews, it must be done by context.

So, when the scriptures refers to the nations, that is not referring to Ephraim. Ephraim is a tribe of israel. Israel is one nation, not nations. The term Jews includes Ephraim, so the nations refers to people who are not children of Israel in those statements.

This is especially clear because it was prophesied that the non-Israel/Gentiles would be drawn to the Messiah. Gentiles, non-Jews, who have come to believe on Jesus are a fulfillment of prophesy from the OT. In the book of Acts, the Jewish apostles discussed what are the requirements for Gentiles who have received the Holy Spirit. They studied the OT and saw that Gentiles were to come to the Messiah. They knew that the children of Israel would be united in the land and the children of Israel were to believe on the Messiah, so if the Gentiles were actually Ephraim, there would have been no discussion.

Today, the children of Israel are returning to the land of Israel. All 12 tribes. So the former Northern tribes and the former Southern tribes of the divided Kingdoms are all scattered and are today returning. Some of the groups returning know they were from the Northern tribes. They know their identity as it has been passed down thru the generations. Some are returning from India. Some from Africa. Some were in China. And some in the middle east.

Deut 32:21

‘They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation,

Deut 32:21 talks about the time when the Gentiles would come to the Lord. Speaking to the children of Israel, God told them that He would form a people who are not a people. In scripture, a people refers to an ethnic group, a group from a common ancestor. Also usually called a nation, as a nation is a people group. So these people who are not a people refers to diverse people, from every tribe, tongue and nation. These people who are not single people group, is the church, made up of people from every tribe, tongue and nation, brought together to form a new nation/people group called the saints of God, or the Church. It is a foolish nation because it is not really a nation of people of a common ancestor but a diverse group no one would see as one, but God made this foolish nation. And this foolish nation is to make Israel jealous.

[J-Andy]

uh huh...yet she has presented numerous such dreams and visions and I have had far more to do with her posts than yours....the problem is, that people who are NOT chronologically aligned with her

are saying 'you go girl' and that is very worrisome (no one actually said you go girl...I'm just summing it up) No one does understand the Revelation given to John completely and my point is it is unfolding

and we will know when we need to know...like everything else.....you may not be familar with the other site I was addressing...so you may not agree with all of my concerns ..

Sorry. Now I understand. I was going to ask you for that thread and that link but .. no point in reading something that I know will leave me with a heavy heart. I've heard too much false doctrine/s about dreams, visions etc and had enough.

.. I have learned them the very hard way. I will say this once here and then not again. What will be the greatest threat to believers...and it has got a good start...is deception...they will not know an evil spirt seducing them from the Holy Spirit. They do not understand what satan does now and what he will do when God allows him.

I will not say this again.

Yes. I think that is already happening. It's not, "they will not know'" it's already, "they don't know". And they don't care what you say. I know lots of 'prophets' and I've heard so many of their 'visions'. People I know well. Relatives. It's sickening. They don't care what you say, just as the Israelites preferred the words of their false prophets. It's a losing battle fighting them one on one, but it's good you post what you post here, so anyone who reads can see and hopefully have their eyes opened.

Some of us have been through tribulation right here in North America...the physical experience may not be the same, but the spiritual one is. We are tried in the fiery furnace if God desires it for

His purposes...My love for God now is very different than when I first gave Him my entire life....things did not turn out the way I planned, but eternity should be written on our hearts and our hearts

should have their treasure in heaven...and no, I don't live with that thought in mind all the time...but it is there

It's hard. My heart goes out to you. I recognize a lover of Biblical truth when I see one (it's really refreshing). I will pray for you during the course of tomorrow and before I turn in tonight, for the comfort and upliftment of the Holy Spirit.

You have a great weekend there in North America. Remember that Jesus came to give you a chance to live life abundantly too. Not just seriousness all the time, but fun and laughter, and a lot of it, because you need it in your world, no matter where you are. The time will come when the two witnesses will propesy "clothed in sackloth", and then no-one will be laughing, except those who have gone up and up and are watching tghe suffering of others with glee.

[goldust59]

Revelation 11 is where we are told about the 2 witnesses. In the first 2 verses, there is a measuring of the temple. The temple consists of 3 areas and only the inner 2 are measured--- with those that worship there. I believe "those that worship there" ARE the 2 witnesses. Individually, our bodies are temples--- collectively, we are being fit together as the temple of God.

Rev 11:1-4~ And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood(Michael stands up-?)(Daniel 12:1),saying. Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the outer court which is without(outside) the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophecy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

A study of the olive trees will give a clearer picture of who the witnesses are.

You're still not accounting for how all these people would fit in the street, or how every believer on the planet at that time could all gather at one time in Jerusalem. It's not a very large space, and this happens for three and a half years, where do they all stay for this length of time? What do they eat? Logistically it's impossible, unless you insist on ignoring this passage.

Revelation 11:8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language, and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. 10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

The bible tells us it is appointed once for man to die, so examining all of scripture you will see there are two men that never tasted death, I am expecting them to make their appearance to fulfill this prophecy. This seems much more likely than every believer on the planet gathering for this time period, in one small city that won't hold them, in the midst of persecution and tribulation. Christians today don't unite on anything or have the courage to stand up against peer pressure, do you really see them standing up in the face of evil unparalleled, or is it more likely they will go into hiding?

Wingnut, I am looking at the temple mentioned in Rev 11 in a spiritual sense & am thinking that the "holy city" may be the same.

I do believe there will be a remnant that will stand in "the fullness of Christ" in the face of evil unparalled. I believe these are the manchild of Rev 12.

Someone said that the manchild teaching was heresy and I have run across some very off the wall stuff being proclaimed as "manchild doctrine" in the past--- but the scripture speaks of the manchild & that should be studied out to see what it means.