A separate can of worms - all views invited!

[Guest]

I am going to ask a lot of you here. It will require thinking and work, I don't expect too mauch participation for that reason. I said in the title, that all views are welcomed. I do noit intend that to mean that everyone with a view is welcomed. What do I mean by that? I mean that I hope thi will be a high quaility, informative thread, one participated in by those who actually study and dig. I am not looking for opinions, almost everyone has one.

If your particular view of eschatology, comes from reading fictional novels or watching movies, of from listenting to your pastor or reading books from one point of veiw, you might not be a good candidate for participating in this thread, though I cannot prevent that. This thread is not intended to find out what you beleive, but to see the reasons people have for beleiving what they believe, from their personal bible studies.

Let me illustrate what I am after here by example. Over the years I have been in my share of discussion on the topic of eschatology. I become frustrated by my perception, that people who disagree with me, seem to have not just a different conclusion than I do, but different way of thinking altogether, and a different set of rules they use for interpreting scripture. For example, people will say:

"The Bible does not say there is no rapture before the tribulation"

or they will say:

"The Bible clearly teaches, that beleivers will be caught up in the Rapture, before the Great Tribulation"

Those kind of statements, frustrate me. It is as though they have this secret knowledge, that if the bible fails to say something, then the opposite of what it does not say, must be true. The seem to have secret knowledge, that if a rapture is mentioned, then it must be a secret rapture before the tribulation, becuase they fail to state how they know that it is not after the tribulation.

So, what I am proposing, is that people identify their position briefly, give your self a label or give a short sequence of events, that lets us know basically what you beleive.

Personally I am known as an Historic Premillennialist, often times referred to as a post tribulationalis.

I order things this way:

• Daniels 70th week begins
  
• The time of birthpains and some tribulation
  
• The appearance of the man of sin
  
• Great tribulation
  
• God's wrath begins (near the end or at the end of the tribulation)
  
• 70th week closes
  
• Jesus appears, coming in the clouds
  
• The dead in Christ are raised and caught up to be with Christ (known as the first ressurection)
  
• Living believers follow just after
  
• The living and the dead in Christ are all changed to their glorifed bodies
  
• They return with Christ to the Earth
  
• Battle of Armegeddon
  
• Jesus wins
  
• The Millenium begins
  
• The final battle where evil is dealt with permantanly
  

Now, I left some details out, and I am flexible on some, but that is a general outline of my understanding.

I would like to see similar info from all who participate in this thread, and it is ok to say on a given point, that you are uncertain. There is no shame in that, it might even be a good thing.

What I want to see developed here once and if the thread gets developed a little, is why you beieve what ever point you are going to address. That means specifically, provide the verse(s) or passage(s) that you feell make your case, as well as why you thing your conclusion from the passage is justified - what rules or reasons do you have for your particular opinion about the verse.

I will start of with an example.

My assertion:

The rapture happens after the Great Tribulation

My texts:

1 Thess 4:15-17

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev 20:4-6

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

(Now, I might point out that verses like Luke 22:30 and others indicate that beleivers from before the tribulation, sit on thrones judgeing but that is not the thrust of the arguemne, it is just to but asiade the possibe objection that Rev 20 speaks of tribuation saints only.)

My Conclusion:

Premise one: We know from 1 Thess 4:16-17 that the dead are raised before the rapture of the living saints.

Premise two: We know from Rev 20:4 that those Christians who died in the Great Tribulation are included in the first resurrection (Rev 20:5)

Conclusion: If the first resurection happens after the Great Tribulation, and if living beleivers at the rapture are caught up subsequent to the beleivers who are ressurected, then it follows that the Rapture is some time after the Great Tribulation.

Reason for undertanding these verses in this way:

A universally accepted rule of interpreation, is to compare scripture with scripture, which I have done here.

I have provided a sequence of events, specified by scripture itself, not by assertions.

Words mean things, in this case, I assume that the word 'first' in first resurrection means first among resurrections yet to occur (and distinct from the second ressurection), since it obviously does not referr to prior resurrections which had already taken place when John penned the Book of Revelation.

I have used the rule of exegesis which states, "always take a verse or passage in a literal sense, unless there is some compelling reason not to do so".

So, using common rules of interpretation, and understanding the passages in their most natural senses, I beleive it is reasonalbe to conlude that the scripture teaches that there is a Great Tribulation in which beleivers die and join those beleivers who have died previously, and who shall be raides after the great tribulation and prior to the rapture.

Now to help you further understand what I am hoping to accomplish in this thread, I hope that there are predicted events posted, that come from various viewpoints, in order that we will have a collection of ideas, which have not only the verses and the conclusions, by why we should accept the conclusions as valid. In this way, people can examing the beleifs, and decide for themselves if the reasons for the understanding are really valid, or just assertions with poor or non-existant evidence.

Let's try to be civil, and lets just make one point per post, in order to keep the posts at readable lengths. Let's try use language that is understood by all or most people, For example, I used the word exegesis . Many readers will have no idea what that is. I suggest that the posts be as short as possible, while still getting the point across, as many automaticall just skip over lengthy posts.

I beleive that if we do this correctly, this thread will become a valuable resource, hopefully with more meat and less heat.

I suggest, that the goal is not to win an arguement, if that is why you are here, you will probably learn little if anything. Neither you nor I have a monopoly on the truth nor a monopoly on God's Holy Spirit assisting our understanding. If you think otherwise, please do not participate. "We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know"(1 Cor:8) The urge to rebutt other view points will be strong. There is a place for that, and I am not suggesting that it cannot be done. However, I beleive that most of the time, it would better to present the evidence for what you believe that contradicts the other viewpoint, so that most of the posts here consist of evidence for a belieif, rather than evidence against a belief. Feel free to offer other suggestions, and may God's truthes shine to His glory, and to the edificationof the saints.

[Montana Marv]

My Take is different than many, but close to others.

The next major event in our future is the Rapture; The Dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive (in Christ) rise to meet them in the air (1 Thes 4:16,17). This is referring to one specific group, those being the Church or the Bride of Christ, those who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit. We are the first major group to receive our Glorified Resurrected bodies. Here I am leaving out all the OT Saints, because they were never indwelt with the HS. Here I am leaving out all the Tribulation Saints, the 144,000, those of Israel which are His elect and those who enter into the Mill alive from every nation (Rev 7:14), those who did not worship the beast or recieve his mark. There is still one more group which will need to receive their Resurrection bodies and those are all who lived during the Mill which did not follow Satan at the end of the 1000 years.

I believe in multiple stages for the First Resurrection, most of which will receive theirs after the 1000 years.

Then the war of Ezk 38 and 39

Then the beast of Rev 13 and with him the False Prophet make their appearances

Then releative peace on earth for 42 months. Israel returns to preemence. (speaking lightly) Trib saints are killed or sent into captivity.

Then the A/D is set up in the temple.

Israel flees to Ammon, Edom and Moab (Dan 11:41)

Then the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgments began.

Then the Second Coming

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Guest]

Well, that is different, thanks for starting us off Marv

[back2thebible]

I am going to ask a lot of you here. It will require thinking and work, I don't expect too mauch participation for that reason. I said in the title, that all views are welcomed. I do noit intend that to mean that everyone with a view is welcomed. What do I mean by that? I mean that I hope thi will be a high quaility, informative thread, one participated in by those who actually study and dig. I am not looking for opinions, almost everyone has one.

If your particular view of eschatology, comes from reading fictional novels or watching movies, of from listenting to your pastor or reading books from one point of veiw, you might not be a good candidate for participating in this thread, though I cannot prevent that. This thread is not intended to find out what you beleive, but to see the reasons people have for beleiving what they believe, from their personal bible studies.

Let me illustrate what I am after here by example. Over the years I have been in my share of discussion on the topic of eschatology. I become frustrated by my perception, that people who disagree with me, seem to have not just a different conclusion than I do, but different way of thinking altogether, and a different set of rules they use for interpreting scripture. For example, people will say:

"The Bible does not say there is no rapture before the tribulation"

or they will say:

"The Bible clearly teaches, that beleivers will be caught up in the Rapture, before the Great Tribulation"

Those kind of statements, frustrate me. It is as though they have this secret knowledge, that if the bible fails to say something, then the opposite of what it does not say, must be true. The seem to have secret knowledge, that if a rapture is mentioned, then it must be a secret rapture before the tribulation, becuase they fail to state how they know that it is not after the tribulation.

So, what I am proposing, is that people identify their position briefly, give your self a label or give a short sequence of events, that lets us know basically what you beleive.

Personally I am known as an Historic Premillennialist, often times referred to as a post tribulationalis.

I order things this way:

• Daniels 70th week begins
  
• The time of birthpains and some tribulation
  
• The appearance of the man of sin
  
• Great tribulation
  
• God's wrath begins (near the end or at the end of the tribulation)
  
• 70th week closes
  
• Jesus appears, coming in the clouds
  
• The dead in Christ are raised and caught up to be with Christ (known as the first ressurection)
  
• Living believers follow just after
  
• The living and the dead in Christ are all changed to their glorifed bodies
  
• They return with Christ to the Earth
  
• Battle of Armegeddon
  
• Jesus wins
  
• The Millenium begins
  
• The final battle where evil is dealt with permantanly
  

Now, I left some details out, and I am flexible on some, but that is a general outline of my understanding.

I would like to see similar info from all who participate in this thread, and it is ok to say on a given point, that you are uncertain. There is no shame in that, it might even be a good thing.

What I want to see developed here once and if the thread gets developed a little, is why you beieve what ever point you are going to address. That means specifically, provide the verse(s) or passage(s) that you feell make your case, as well as why you thing your conclusion from the passage is justified - what rules or reasons do you have for your particular opinion about the verse.

I will start of with an example.

My assertion:

The rapture happens after the Great Tribulation

My texts:

1 Thess 4:15-17

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev 20:4-6

4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

(Now, I might point out that verses like Luke 22:30 and others indicate that beleivers from before the tribulation, sit on thrones judgeing but that is not the thrust of the arguemne, it is just to but asiade the possibe objection that Rev 20 speaks of tribuation saints only.)

My Conclusion:

Premise one: We know from 1 Thess 4:16-17 that the dead are raised before the rapture of the living saints.

Premise two: We know from Rev 20:4 that those Christians who died in the Great Tribulation are included in the first resurrection (Rev 20:5)

Conclusion: If the first resurection happens after the Great Tribulation, and if living beleivers at the rapture are caught up subsequent to the beleivers who are ressurected, then it follows that the Rapture is some time after the Great Tribulation.

Reason for undertanding these verses in this way:

A universally accepted rule of interpreation, is to compare scripture with scripture, which I have done here.

I have provided a sequence of events, specified by scripture itself, not by assertions.

Words mean things, in this case, I assume that the word 'first' in first resurrection means first among resurrections yet to occur (and distinct from the second ressurection), since it obviously does not referr to prior resurrections which had already taken place when John penned the Book of Revelation.

I have used the rule of exegesis which states, "always take a verse or passage in a literal sense, unless there is some compelling reason not to do so".

So, using common rules of interpretation, and understanding the passages in their most natural senses, I beleive it is reasonalbe to conlude that the scripture teaches that there is a Great Tribulation in which beleivers die and join those beleivers who have died previously, and who shall be raides after the great tribulation and prior to the rapture.

Now to help you further understand what I am hoping to accomplish in this thread, I hope that there are predicted events posted, that come from various viewpoints, in order that we will have a collection of ideas, which have not only the verses and the conclusions, by why we should accept the conclusions as valid. In this way, people can examing the beleifs, and decide for themselves if the reasons for the understanding are really valid, or just assertions with poor or non-existant evidence.

Let's try to be civil, and lets just make one point per post, in order to keep the posts at readable lengths. Let's try use language that is understood by all or most people, For example, I used the word exegesis . Many readers will have no idea what that is. I suggest that the posts be as short as possible, while still getting the point across, as many automaticall just skip over lengthy posts.

I beleive that if we do this correctly, this thread will become a valuable resource, hopefully with more meat and less heat.

I suggest, that the goal is not to win an arguement, if that is why you are here, you will probably learn little if anything. Neither you nor I have a monopoly on the truth nor a monopoly on God's Holy Spirit assisting our understanding. If you think otherwise, please do not participate. "We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies. If anyone supposes that he knows anything, he has not yet known as he ought to know"(1 Cor:8) The urge to rebutt other view points will be strong. There is a place for that, and I am not suggesting that it cannot be done. However, I beleive that most of the time, it would better to present the evidence for what you believe that contradicts the other viewpoint, so that most of the posts here consist of evidence for a belieif, rather than evidence against a belief. Feel free to offer other suggestions, and may God's truthes shine to His glory, and to the edificationof the saints.

sounds good to me!..........anything after we are gathered to Christ is really not worth debating because He will straighten anyones error from there on in

[back2thebible]

My Take is different than many, but close to others.

The next major event in our future is the Rapture; The Dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive (in Christ) rise to meet them in the air (1 Thes 4:16,17). This is referring to one specific group, those being the Church or the Bride of Christ, those who have been sealed with the Holy Spirit. We are the first major group to receive our Glorified Resurrected bodies. Here I am leaving out all the OT Saints, because they were never indwelt with the HS. Here I am leaving out all the Tribulation Saints, the 144,000, those of Israel which are His elect and those who enter into the Mill alive from every nation (Rev 7:14), those who did not worship the beast or recieve his mark. There is still one more group which will need to receive their Resurrection bodies and those are all who lived during the Mill which did not follow Satan at the end of the 1000 years.

I believe in multiple stages for the First Resurrection, most of which will receive theirs after the 1000 years.

Then the war of Ezk 38 and 39

Then the beast of Rev 13 and with him the False Prophet make their appearances

Then releative peace on earth for 42 months. Israel returns to preemence. (speaking lightly) Trib saints are killed or sent into captivity.

Then the A/D is set up in the temple.

Israel flees to Ammon, Edom and Moab (Dan 11:41)

Then the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgments began.

Then the Second Coming

In Christ

Montana Marv

I'm not sure where you find people in the old testiment not being filled with the Holy Spirit...........but the bible I have shows quite a few operating in power and gifts of the Holy Spirit, certainly the prophet Joel spoke of later days when God would pour out His Spirit on all flesh, but we see God had prophets and they prophesied in the Spirit.........Its how we got the bible

[Montana Marv]

backtothebible

Being fill with the HS

100% of the time for OT saints. No 100% for the Church or Bride of Christ, Yes He the HS is given by Jesus to us as our comforter. Not so for OT saints. Many OT saints were never prophets.

In Christ

Montana Marv

PS What is your timeline. Don't debate others. Read the OP.

[enoob57]

Where do you place the Bema Seat and The Marriage supper?

[nChrist]

I believe that the Rapture is before the Tribulation period. The answer is in the bold Scripture below:

1 Corinthians 15:50-58 NASB 50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55 "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 NASB 9 For they themselves report about us what kind of a reception we had with you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NASB 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:9-11 NASB 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

Revelation 3:10 NASB 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

[Guest]

Please people try to respect the purpose of this thread, it is not really to ask questions that can be asked elsewhere, not really to come in to challenge others, it is primarily to state your position, succinctly, and offer a few verses that fit in with your understanding, and reasons why you beleive the verses should be viewed the way that you view them. Please read the original post, before posting in this thread. I know it is tempting to go off topic, but please exercise some self control.

I made the first post has an example of the idea but the format ought to be something like:

I am a (label yourself) or I beleive in (your position). (For myself I might say that I an an historic premillenialist or that I beleive in a post tribulation rapture of the church.)

I think the end time events will work out like this probably:

1 Event one

2 Event two

3 Event four

etc

I would like to explain my understanding of this aspect of it all:

(here you might want to discuss the doctrine of imminence, the marriage supper, the wrath of God, the Day of the Lord, the gathering of the elect, the identity of the elect, etc)

and here are some verses I beleive support my understanding _________, ________, ___________

There reason I beleive these verse support this understanding are:

1, 2, 3, and etc.

Now, I do not mean to say that it has to be exactly this way, but that is the sort of information we are looking for. If this does not work for you, there are probably other threads more suited to your needs.

If you feel that you have to refute someone's post, please make a post like the this thread is asking for, stating your position, and your reasons for it first. If that does not serve as a rebuttal of the other persons position, then state so in addition to what you have stated about your own views, either in the same post, or better yet in a separate post.

Be as brief as you can while still making your case. Try to restrict yourself to scripture and sound logic and interpretive principles, and not depend on things like "I feel like" or "the Spirit told me". No one else can verify your feelings or know if what you think was the Spirit, is so, or even if the spirit is a clean spirit.

Well studied, thought out, objective reasons are what we are looking for, not emotional notions and arguments to prove ourselves right. Please, try to make this thread a smorgasborg of good information where people can come, and browse and learn.

For those of you who get it, thank you so much for your contributions and for helping to keep this thread on track.

[wingnut-]

I think my view falls under the umbrella of mid-tribulation, although I personally don't believe it's at the halfway point. It could be, but my sequence depends on when the 2 witnesses appear. We know from Rev 11 that they will prophesy and make war for 3 1/2 years, but scripture never states when this begins, I suspect it will not be right from the beginning which would make it later than the midway point. Following this event we see the 7th trumpet, which points to the last trumpet in Rev 20, and the first resurrection. I believe the 2 witnesses are part of the first resurrection as they ascend 3 1/2 days after they are killed. I believe the first resurrection is the rapture.

Following this we see the woman (Israel) and the dragon (satan) in chapter 12. The child spoken of is Jesus, and I see this as the time of the marriage supper, and the dragon (satan) tries to interrupt the reception. Michael and the angels defeat him and his followers casting them out of heaven for good, leading to Jesus telling Israel to flee because the dragon (satan) is now loose on earth. With no church present any longer his attention turns to Israel and things intensify.

This is followed by Gods wrath, which Christians are not appointed to suffer, but Israel must pass through the fiery furnace like shadrech, meshech, and abednago did previously, along with tribulation saints who were not part of the first resurrection. This is followed by the second coming and the millennial kingdom, and eventually Armageddon and the judgement.