BibleGuy Posted November 6, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 777 Content Per Day: 0.48 Reputation: 224 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted November 6, 2019 On 4/13/2013 at 10:48 PM, ByFaithAlone said: I have a question I have been wrestling with and I was wondering people's thoughts on the matter. Hell, commonly understood, is a place of eternal separation from God which is going to be the worst possible experience that anyone can ever hope to achieve. The major philosophical problem I am running into was posed to me by a deist friend of mine who was questioning whether the idea of hell was in some manner an injustice. His argument was as follows in roughly the order of the conversation we had (this is not a logic argument and is not in proper premise-conclusion form - I realize this). (1) God creates human race (2) The human race is finite (3) Through actions of their own (this is assumed as I currently am holding a Molinist position of free will), part of the human race is justly condemned to separation from God. (4) To be just, the punishment must fit the crime (5) Eternal punishment is never a just punishment for a finite crime (6) Even if original sin, the sins of all humanity was taking into consideration, based on (2) we would still require a finite punishment (5) and (6) are particularly intriguing to me and have kept me thinking. I was wondering people's thoughts on the matter. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. As always, I look forward to dialogue. Regards, BFA The ONGOING rejection of Christ in hell is an ONGOING crime. Thus, (5) may not be pertinent to what's actually going on in hell. Thanks for your careful structuring in your reasoning though! blessings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted November 6, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,069 Content Per Day: 7.97 Reputation: 21,395 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted November 6, 2019 On 4/14/2013 at 12:48 AM, ByFaithAlone said: (2) The human race is finite Before sin there was no death thus Adam and Eve were not finite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
servant of Christ Posted June 10, 2020 Group: Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 9 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/08/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted June 10, 2020 On 4/13/2013 at 10:48 PM, ByFaithAlone said: I have a question I have been wrestling with and I was wondering people's thoughts on the matter. Hell, commonly understood, is a place of eternal separation from God which is going to be the worst possible experience that anyone can ever hope to achieve. The major philosophical problem I am running into was posed to me by a deist friend of mine who was questioning whether the idea of hell was in some manner an injustice. His argument was as follows in roughly the order of the conversation we had (this is not a logic argument and is not in proper premise-conclusion form - I realize this). (1) God creates human race (2) The human race is finite (3) Through actions of their own (this is assumed as I currently am holding a Molinist position of free will), part of the human race is justly condemned to separation from God. (4) To be just, the punishment must fit the crime (5) Eternal punishment is never a just punishment for a finite crime (6) Even if original sin, the sins of all humanity was taking into consideration, based on (2) we would still require a finite punishment (5) and (6) are particularly intriguing to me and have kept me thinking. I was wondering people's thoughts on the matter. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. As always, I look forward to dialogue. Regards, BFA Some people can makes sense of annihilation. But when it comes to hell fire, and reading the sheer number of verses in the Gospels (by Christ himself) about "where the worm never dies, and the smoke of their torment." It can be a lot to take in initially. I sympathize with that viewpoint. But as we show here, it would be the wrong viewpoint. I feel that conscious eternal damnation in Hell is justified myself. See if you had the ability to read every thought of every human, every lie, every deception, every angry word, every hate filled word, and the sheer number of them you would think twice about calling God unjust for eternal hell. See if we sinned just once a day. And we know we sin probably hundreds. But let’s do the math on one sin alone. That is 365 sins a year. Before you are even a teenager you have committed 3,650 sins. In an average 80 year life span you have committed nearly 30,000 sins. Now that's all fine and dandy because we forget about what we had for lunch yesterday. But imagine being a superior being, and being constantly reminded not just of yesterday’s sins, but of sins you did when you were a baby. (Because God is omniscient, and knows everything). That is being constantly reminded of 30,000 sins all at once. Just for one person, for 1 sin a day. I committed a habitual sin the other week. I had been real good for months, then I just messed up. And you know what? God was merciful. But I noticed one thing, I was angry at God the next day. My heart was hard like a rock! I realized this because just a day earlier, my heart was pliable and soft the day before (compassionate). At least for me it was. I can always do better though. But I noticed one sin, made my heart angry at God. Imagine never having forgiveness for your sins, and bearing the guilt of 30,000 sins. How angry would you be at God? Yes, when we see the whole picture, we realize that man hates the idea of God, and he loathes God in his normal condition. Man would rather be in hell than be in heaven with God, he hates God so much. So God gives them what they want. But it is when they actually feel the heat, like lazerus... that they start being sorry. But then it's too late. Now I used to teach that the Bible taught eternal torment, not eternal torture. But that is just semantics. Those words are synonymous. One sounds better yes. But if the Bible was written in modern terms, I don't see a single problem with it mentioning torture. Because of the above information. It changes your perspective doesn't it? (I apologize already for the length of this first post) please bear with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted June 10, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.12 Content Count: 11,053 Content Per Day: 6.58 Reputation: 9,010 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted June 10, 2020 Query... Regarding Moral agent A and B. What if moral agent A, in committing the offense, is a mild mannered sociopath that has zero sense of right or wrong? He has a sense of humor and trips an individual who falls to the ground and smacks his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
servant of Christ Posted June 11, 2020 Group: Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 9 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/08/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2020 On 11/6/2019 at 2:06 PM, BibleGuy said: The ONGOING rejection of Christ in hell is an ONGOING crime. Thus, (5) may not be pertinent to what's actually going on in hell. Thanks for your careful structuring in your reasoning though! blessings... How can they prove that sin is simply finite. Everything from scripture that I see shows sin to be a spiritual error. Spirit realms are beyond time and space. Which means that when we sin it's in the eternal realm, the spiritual realm, and must also be addressed or punished in the spiritual eternal realm. So again proving that sin is finite, would be the logical step that they would need to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted October 27, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 26 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,604 Content Per Day: 3.98 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted October 27, 2020 Jeremiah 29: 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. 12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. 13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. 14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD This is what God says. His scripture cannot be broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Von Posted July 28, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 1,265 Topics Per Day: 0.44 Content Count: 2,637 Content Per Day: 0.93 Reputation: 760 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/06/2016 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/04/1972 Share Posted July 28, 2021 On 4/14/2013 at 2:48 AM, ByFaithAlone said: 5) Eternal punishment is never a just punishment for a finite crime The person isn't punished by their sins, but for what they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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