A Philosophical Look at Hell

[ByFaithAlone]

I'm going to try to respond as fast as possible. Thanks for all the quick responses.

Both candice and Omegaman brought up this idea:

When I read the OP, my first thought was along the line of what Candice expressed. That the crime is not finite.

I can think only to add, that it might be difficult for some to accept that crime against God, is that big a deal.

Perhaps that might be more easily understood if we think about how we think about other things. I a person stood accused of pulling the wings off of a Malaria infected Mosquito, we would scarcely expect to see that person punished, for cruelty to animals, in spite of the fact, that that is what it is. If person were to kill a dog on a whim, most of us would expect some sort of punishment, but we would not expect the punishment, to rise to the same level as it would be for killing a human on a whim, see the progression?

This is an interesting argument and I actually presented it to this friend of mine in the following manner.

(1) Moral agent A commits a crime against moral agent B

(2) Moral agent A is locked within space time while moral agent B is not

(3) Moral agent A views his crime as finite

(4) Moral agent B is outside of space time and thus experiences the crime without end as B is in all times at once

(5) Moral agent A would justly deserve a similar timeless punishment for the crime.

My friend responded with this idea. A crime is usually judged based on the individual's understanding of what they did. Therefore if moral agent A commits a crime against moral agent B because they were forced to by external factor C we would base the punishment with this taken into consideration. In a similar manner, my friend argues the following.

Assume (1)-(4) above

(5) Moral agent B recognizes that A is bound by space and time

(6) Being bound by space and time is analogous to an external factor C which must be taken into consideration

(7) Moral agent B passes judgement on moral agent A

(8) Moral agent B has the attribute of being omnibenevolent

(9) Moral agent B, recognizing the factor C would give a finite punishment to moral agent A.

Thoughts?

[missmuffet]

If you do not love the Lord Jesus Christ he is not going to drag you into heaven.A person makes a choice while here on Earth.If I did not like a person I would not want to spend eternity with them.

[2ndRateMind]

It's nice to see a thoughtful post on this forum. It's nice to see thoughtful replies.

My own take on this is that, come the hereafter, we all end up in the presence of God. The difference between heaven and hell is in how we get on with that. Saints will be vindicated. The rest of us sinners will find ourselves rueing our misspent lives.

Cheers, eco.

[Guest ninhao]

Meanwhile, another person decides to brutally rape and kill dozens of people, he/she has sinned, and thus deserves eternal Hell. Is it justice for me to enter the same fate as this person? Did we hurt God in the same way and to the same degree? If yes, why do we treat the two scenarios so differently? If no, why does God treat them the same?

One thing that I've always found odd was that our "just" punishment/alienation from God is eternal, yet Christ who is punished for all our sins (an extreme large number nearing infinity I'm sure) is only punished for three days. Why the disconnect, wouldn't Christ's just and fair bearing of our sins require an eternal punishment?

Hello D-9,

You have pointed out an obvious flaw in the premise that any sin deserves infinite/eternal punishment. The more logical premise is that the only sin which deserves infinite/eternal punishment is that of enmity with God and is the sin which places people into the Lake of Fire with all other sins bringing judgment and temporal punishment at the Great White Throne.

In saying enmity I suggest this is disbelief and/or rebellion.

[~candice~]

Jesus death paid the price, not the length of time spent dead. It was the death of a perfect innocent man that took away sins. Clearly we are not perfect nor innocent and have no way to pay for our crimes. So those in hell, I believe, are working to pay their sins but will never get there.

[ByFaithAlone]

It's nice to see a thoughtful post on this forum. It's nice to see thoughtful replies.

My own take on this is that, come the hereafter, we all end up in the presence of God. The difference between heaven and hell is in how we get on with that. Saints will be vindicated. The rest of us sinners will find ourselves rueing our misspent lives.

Cheers, eco.

This is a very interesting view of hell. I haven't heard it before. Could you expand more on this?

[Guest]

A Tale

For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. John 5:20-25

Of Two Brothers

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:26-29

Choose Wisely

Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him. Matthew 2:1-2

~

It's nice to see a thoughtful post on this forum. It's nice to see thoughtful replies.

My own take on this is that, come the hereafter, we all end up in the presence of God. The difference between heaven and hell is in how we get on with that. Saints will be vindicated. The rest of us sinners will find ourselves ruing our misspent lives.

Cheers, eco.

This is a very interesting view of hell. I haven't heard it before. Could you expand more on this?

For The Wages Of Sin

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

Is Death

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:13-14

Yet It's In Jesus We Hope

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:22-28

[missmuffet]

It's nice to see a thoughtful post on this forum. It's nice to see thoughtful replies.

My own take on this is that, come the hereafter, we all end up in the presence of God. The difference between heaven and hell is in how we get on with that. Saints will be vindicated. The rest of us sinners will find ourselves rueing our misspent lives.

Cheers, eco.

This is a very interesting view of hell. I haven't heard it before. Could you expand more on this?

That sounds like purgatory.

[Elhanan]

Our notion of hell is based on the retributive theory of punishment. This view holds that punishment is not based on rehabilitation of the offender or its ability to deter future crimes i.e., sins. Rather, God punishes sinners to hell because they deserve it. Essential to this theory of punishment is the idea that the punishment must fit the crime. Hence the OT law - eye for an eye, tooth for tooth notion of what constitutes justice served. Byfaithalone has identified the irony though that when it comes to hell - the punishment does not seem to fit the crime in that finite sins merit infinite punishment. Even when one considers sinning against an infinite being, it does not necessarily follow that all crimes against him are infinitely bad. If I send the President a threatening letter, the secret service will come knocking on my door and I may or may not end up in jail. If I do the President bodily harm, I most certainly will end up in jail and the length of my incarceration will likely correspond to the degree of bodily harm that is inflicted. Therefore the gravity of the offense is not only determined by the status of the one offended but also by the nature of the offense. In hell however, all sins irregardless of their degree of seriousness or gravity merit the same eternal punishment. Most notably, the early church did not face this dilemma as we do because for the first five centuries after Christ, the eternal torment of sinners was not a widely held view as it is today.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Elhanan

[Guest]

I see a lovely lady walking down the street and for a second lust for her, I have committed adultery, a sin, and thus deserve eternal Hell. How does this hurt God, in what way, and to what degree?

Meanwhile, another person decides to brutally rape and kill dozens of people, he/she has sinned, and thus deserves eternal Hell. Is it justice for me to enter the same fate as this person? Did we hurt God in the same way and to the same degree? If yes, why do we treat the two scenarios so differently? If no, why does God treat them the same?

One thing that I've always found odd was that our "just" punishment/alienation from God is eternal, yet Christ who is punished for all our sins (an extreme large number nearing infinity I'm sure) is only punished for three days. Why the disconnect, wouldn't Christ's just and fair bearing of our sins require an eternal punishment?

On the one point, as Candice pointed out, the payment for sin, was not based on the three days, but on the sacrifice itself. I would add that the ransom paid for us there, is sufficient not because of the time in the grave, but the worth of the one sacrificed.

In the final state, whether for the believer or the unbeliever, it will be eternal, because that is all there is I think. "Before" ( a misnomer since time itself is part of the creation) the creation, God lived in eternity, and still does. We make a mistake I think, if we think of eternity as a lot of time, I think instead, it is timelessness (pardon me for so much speculation). I think, beleivers go to live with God in eternity, and unbeleivers are separated from God in eternity. In the sphere of eternity, are two compartments, so to speak, that good and evil are separted each into it's own compartment, wereas here in time, they co-exist.

We are clearly told in scripture, that all believers will be in heaven, that good half of etermity, but we will not all experince it in the same way. It is pointed out to us, the we get varying degrees of reward, according to our good works, and all punishment for our bad works is dismissed. The unbelievers on the other hand, are punsihed according to their deeds (Rom 2:6, 2 Tim 4:14, and maybe Rev 20:13).

All of this just a groundwork for a point to address your point about the about unequal treatment for the two sinners, the one who sinned little and the one who sinned much. While in both cases, the sentence is eternal, the severity of the punishment varies. It may be that some have lived a very good life, with only minor infractions, may only experience mild unpleasantness for eternity, but that is still a severe punishment in the sense that they will be deprived of goodness for eternity. No one really knows what Heaven or Hell will be like as an experience, but we know one is to be avoided and the other sought.

All this beng said, I think that those who see a difference in crimes committed, are looking with flawed and human eyes, and not trying to see through the eyes of God. We know from scripture, that "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all." Jam 2:10

We see the world in shades of grey and in terms of time. I think from God's prespective, it is more binary, it is black and white, plus or minus, and timeless, so it is understandable that it is difficult to accept things with which we have no experience, nothing comparable. Things of the Spirit, are not understood by our logic or limited rational ability. The are understood by His Spirit, speaking to our Spirit, or, if we are not sensitive to such things, we by faith, accept God's revelation to us in the bible, and not try to make it conform to our understanding of flawed human reasoning.