Are people in Heaven?

[Butch5]

 

There's no need to describe the spirit in man, that's not at issue. The issue is where does Scripture teach about a spirit that lives on after death. Even if you deny that neshamah is God's spirit. There still is nothing that teaches that man has a spirit that lives on after death.

 

I disagree that there is no need to describe the spirit of man.  Without this foundation, the discussion becomes moot.  In Revelation 6:9, who are those under His alter?  Where did they come from and do you believe this was after the rapture?  Is His kingdom spirit or mass?  If you say mass, how is it inside us?  You need to rightly divide scripture to understand.

 

It's interesting that you say I need to rightly divide the word when I'm the one who is building a case based on what is stated in Scripture rather than inferences.

 

Regarding the spirit in man, I don't have a problem discussing it if you can show me where it's taught. You've rejected my statement that neshamah is God's spirit, so what is this spirit in man and where did it come from?

 

His kingdom is physical, The phrase within you can also be translated among you. This obviously is the better translation since Jesus was talking to the Pharisees. I don't think the kingdom of God was within them. This is also the early Christian understanding of the phrase.

 

 

Tertullian commented on the passage in his refutation of Marcion.     Against Marcion, Book 4 Chapter 35.

 

“The kingdom of God,” He says, “cometh not with observation; neither do they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”Now, who will not interpret the words “within you” to mean in your and, within your power, if you hear, and do the commandment of God? If, however, the kingdom of God lies in His commandment, set before your mind Moses on the other side, according to our antitheses, and you will find the self-same view of the case.

Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

 

I believe the souls under the alter is allegory or metaphorical. I believe it's an allusion to the Genesis account of Able's martyrdom. Remember God said to Cain, you brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. I don't think Able's blood was literally speaking to God. One has to wonder why these souls are under the altar. What was the alter for? It was for sacrifices, the martyrs sacrificed their lives for God. In Leviticus we are told that the soul is in the blood. combine these three and you have the souls under the alter.  

 

¹¹ For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev 17:11 KJV)

 

Life is translated from nephesh, the soul is in the blood. It seems to me that a spirit or a ghost isn't in the blood. Therefore I don't think the case can be made that these are some sort of spirit or ghost of those who were martyred.

[Butch5]

Nonsense. Where do you think the dead in Christ go, seeing as Jesus says He will never leave or forsake us---that we will never be separated from Him? That we walk in the light as He is in the light? That we inherit life as He is the Life? Certainly no scripture teaches us that we inherit soul sleep, or separation from God, or even dormancy. Can you think in terms of spiritual beings, or are you completely boxed in by the thought that we are only flesh beings?

 

John 6:50 (AMP)

⁵⁰ [but] this is the Bread that comes down from heaven, so that [any]one may eat of it and never die.

 

John 11:25-26 (NLT)

²⁵ Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. ²⁶ Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?”

 

The dead in Christ go to the grave like everyone else.

 

Again, the proof texting doesn't prove your point. A sentence without context can be used to say many things. These two passages from John, are you suggesting that you won't die? Paul said the wages of sin is death, are you sinless that you won't die?

[Butch5]

 

He told the Jews and His disciples that He was going to the one who sent Him and they could not go. In order for them to be with Him He needed to come back as He told them in John 14.

 

KJV John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

² In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (Joh 14:1-3 KJV)

 

 

It seems pretty clear that no one is going there.

 

However, if you'd put your passages in context and consider them you'd see that they are not saying what you believe they are.

 

 

 

 

How do you get that?

 

All believers go to God at the point of death, and all are with Jesus right now and will return with Him and will receive their new changed, glorified bodies. We will always be with Him---forever

Unless you can show that from Scripture I'll have to assume it's an opinion.

[Butch5]

 

 

 

 

Genesis 2:7 (AMP)

 

7 Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath or spirit of life, and man became a living being.

Are you trying to prove my point?

 

 

Just stating the facts. We are spirits who possess souls and live in bodies.

 

Well, since you haven't made a case from Scripture I'll have to assume that's an opinion. I believe Plato believed that also.

 

 

I don't think so. Everything I believe comes from scripture, and that includes the fact that we are tripartite beings who are spirits, who have souls (minds, wills and emotions) and live in fleshly bodies. Everything in scripture attests to it.

 

I'd have to argue that it doesn't come from Scripture. Some of it comes from Plato. You keep saying that a soul is the mind, will, and emotions. While the soul is used metaphorically with the emotions, they are not the soul. A soul is a being.

 

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. (Gen 1:21 KJV)

 

The word creature is translated from the Hebrew word "nephesh" which means soul. I don't think your emotions and will move around.

 

¹⁰ For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Psa 16:10 KJV)

 

I don't think it was Jesus' emotions and will that went to Sheol. If you study the word nephesh you'll see that it's not emotions, mind, and will.

[Floatingaxe]

The dead in Christ go to the grave like everyone else.

 

Again, the proof texting doesn't prove your point. A sentence without context can be used to say many things. These two passages from John, are you suggesting that you won't die? Paul said the wages of sin is death, are you sinless that you won't die?

 

 

 

Believers' dead bodies go to the grave. How do they happen to be dead? Their eternal spirits LEFT!

[Floatingaxe]

 

 

He told the Jews and His disciples that He was going to the one who sent Him and they could not go. In order for them to be with Him He needed to come back as He told them in John 14.

 

KJV John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

² In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (Joh 14:1-3 KJV)

 

 

It seems pretty clear that no one is going there.

 

However, if you'd put your passages in context and consider them you'd see that they are not saying what you believe they are.

 

 

 

 

How do you get that?

 

All believers go to God at the point of death, and all are with Jesus right now and will return with Him and will receive their new changed, glorified bodies. We will always be with Him---forever

Unless you can show that from Scripture I'll have to assume it's an opinion.

 

 

You've been shown. You just disbelieve.

[asper]

Hi butch,

 

I don’t know who gave you that line of “proof texting” or if you made that up by yourself. But you do realize the Word of God is true each and every Word even though it seems to me that you do use that term to try to ignore verses of your choosing.

 

 

Ps 119:160  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

 

Pr 30:5  Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

 

 

 

 

 

God bless,

Tony

[Willa]

Amen , floating axe. Someone told me not long ago, don't cast your pearls before the swine. There are some who just want to argue. They don't want to believe, or they do not have the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, or probably both. I know you must have mentioned this one, but when Stephen was being stoned to death in Acts 7:59: "They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said '"Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."' NASV. Since he saw Jesus standing in honor of him, I do believe he was expecting his spirit to be with Jesus in heaven. While a dying confession is accepted in courts, I doubt if butch will accept Stephen's as truth. He seems to be accustomed to some sort of formal debate that has rules, but he doesn't tell us what the rules are. Moreover he is more interested in playing the game than knowing the truth. The problem is that his real arguement is with God. And the sad thing is that he can't win. It will require him to humble himself as a little child and surrender to his intellect and arguements to his Creator. Of course, that is just my opinion.

[Floatingaxe]

Amen , floating axe. Someone told me not long ago, don't cast your pearls before the swine. There are some who just want to argue. They don't want to believe, or they do not have the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, or probably both. I know you must have mentioned this one, but when Stephen was being stoned to death in Acts 7:59: "They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said '"Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."' NASV. Since he saw Jesus standing in honor of him, I do believe he was expecting his spirit to be with Jesus in heaven. While a dying confession is accepted in courts, I doubt if butch will accept Stephen's as truth. He seems to be accustomed to some sort of formal debate that has rules, but he doesn't tell us what the rules are. Moreover he is more interested in playing the game than knowing the truth. The problem is that his real arguement is with God. And the sad thing is that he can't win. It will require him to humble himself as a little child and surrender to his intellect and arguements to his Creator. Of course, that is just my opinion.

 

I didn't mention Stephen, but I am glad you did!

[GoldenEagle]

 

Nonsense. Where do you think the dead in Christ go, seeing as Jesus says He will never leave or forsake us---that we will never be separated from Him? That we walk in the light as He is in the light? That we inherit life as He is the Life? Certainly no scripture teaches us that we inherit soul sleep, or separation from God, or even dormancy. Can you think in terms of spiritual beings, or are you completely boxed in by the thought that we are only flesh beings?

 

John 6:50 (AMP)

⁵⁰ [but] this is the Bread that comes down from heaven, so that [any]one may eat of it and never die.

 

John 11:25-26 (NLT)

²⁵ Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. ²⁶ Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?”

 

The dead in Christ go to the grave like everyone else.

 

Again, the proof texting doesn't prove your point. A sentence without context can be used to say many things. These two passages from John, are you suggesting that you won't die? Paul said the wages of sin is death, are you sinless that you won't die?

 

How do you view Ezekiel 18:1-9 then? And particularly verse 4?

 

Ezekiel 18:1-9

¹ The word of the Lord came to me: ² “What do youmean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge’? ³ As I live, declares the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. ⁴ Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

⁵ “If a man is righteous and does what is just and right— ⁶ if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman in her time of menstrual impurity, ⁷ does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, ⁸ does not lend at interest or take any profit,withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man, ⁹ walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully—he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord God.

In other words people have souls. And the souls of those who do evil shall be punished. Or do you see this passage differently?

God bless,

GE