Jump to content
IGNORED

Are people in Heaven?


Recommended Posts


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  4
  • Topic Count:  764
  • Topics Per Day:  0.18
  • Content Count:  7,626
  • Content Per Day:  1.82
  • Reputation:   1,559
  • Days Won:  44
  • Joined:  10/03/2012
  • Status:  Offline

 

Amen , floating axe. Someone told me not long ago, don't cast your pearls before the swine. There are some who just want to argue. They don't want to believe, or they do not have the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, or probably both. I know you must have mentioned this one, but when Stephen was being stoned to death in Acts 7:59: "They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said '"Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."' NASV. Since he saw Jesus standing in honor of him, I do believe he was expecting his spirit to be with Jesus in heaven. While a dying confession is accepted in courts, I doubt if butch will accept Stephen's as truth. He seems to be accustomed to some sort of formal debate that has rules, but he doesn't tell us what the rules are. Moreover he is more interested in playing the game than knowing the truth. The problem is that his real arguement is with God. And the sad thing is that he can't win. It will require him to humble himself as a little child and surrender to his intellect and arguements to his Creator. Of course, that is just my opinion.

 

I didn't mention Stephen, but I am glad you did! :clap:

 

Stephen is an excellent example that a person who has a spirit returns to Jesus Christ (God). :thumbsup:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Royal Member
  • Followers:  22
  • Topic Count:  1,294
  • Topics Per Day:  0.21
  • Content Count:  31,762
  • Content Per Day:  5.26
  • Reputation:   9,760
  • Days Won:  115
  • Joined:  09/14/2007
  • Status:  Offline

There's no need to describe the spirit in man, that's not at issue. The issue is where does Scripture teach about a spirit that lives on after death. Even if you deny that neshamah is God's spirit. There still is nothing that teaches that man has a spirit that lives on after death.

 

I disagree that there is no need to describe the spirit of man.  Without this foundation, the discussion becomes moot.  In Revelation 6:9, who are those under His alter?  Where did they come from and do you believe this was after the rapture?  Is His kingdom spirit or mass?  If you say mass, how is it inside us?  You need to rightly divide scripture to understand.

It's interesting that you say I need to rightly divide the word when I'm the one who is building a case based on what is stated in Scripture rather than inferences.

 

There is a difference between building a case and dividing scripture.  Scripture does not need to have a case built for it. Scripture is clear enough if ones eyes are open, heart of flesh and ears unplugged.  Only those who go against scripture has to build their case.

 

Regarding the spirit in man, I don't have a problem discussing it if you can show me where it's taught. You've rejected my statement that neshamah is God's spirit, so what is this spirit in man and where did it come from?

Your definition of the word is incorrect, which is why I disagree. Genesis 2:7 states "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

This clearly states that God gave man life by breathing into his nostrils. It does not say that God breathed His Spirit into man. The life God gave is the image of God, body, soul and spirit. I tried to show you that if man had Gods Spirit in him from the beginning, then His Spirit will not allow man to sin because He cannot sin. Man, however, has a rebellious spirit in him and disobeys God. That is the basic proof you ask for.

 

His kingdom is physical, The phrase within you can also be translated among you. This obviously is the better translation since Jesus was talking to the Pharisees. I don't think the kingdom of God was within them. This is also the early Christian understanding of the phrase.

Look up the Greek word "enotos" - G1787 It means inside, within. It does not mean around or among.

 

 

Tertullian commented on the passage in his refutation of Marcion.     Against Marcion, Book 4 Chapter 35.

 

“The kingdom of God,” He says, “cometh not with observation; neither do they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”Now, who will not interpret the words “within you” to mean in your and, within your power, if you hear, and do the commandment of God? If, however, the kingdom of God lies in His commandment, set before your mind Moses on the other side, according to our antitheses, and you will find the self-same view of the case.

Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

 

I believe the souls under the alter is allegory or metaphorical. I believe it's an allusion to the Genesis account of Able's martyrdom. Remember God said to Cain, you brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. I don't think Able's blood was literally speaking to God. One has to wonder why these souls are under the altar. What was the alter for? It was for sacrifices, the martyrs sacrificed their lives for God. In Leviticus we are told that the soul is in the blood. combine these three and you have the souls under the alter.  

 

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev 17:11 KJV)

 

Life is translated from nephesh, the soul is in the blood. It seems to me that a spirit or a ghost isn't in the blood. Therefore I don't think the case can be made that these are some sort of spirit or ghost of those who were martyred.

You are depending upon mans logic and not scripture. I suggest and encourage you to study Scripture alone with His guidance. When Jesus said within, that is what he meant.

When Paul said in 1 Corinthians 5:3 "For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed." was did he mean?

When Paul stated in 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord., was he lying or does one become raptured upon death, meaning that are millions of raptures?

Have you ever wondered why Jesus would send us the Holy Spirit if He was already in us?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  0
  • Topics Per Day:  0
  • Content Count:  559
  • Content Per Day:  0.15
  • Reputation:   136
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  09/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  03/01/1962

 

 

 

There's no need to describe the spirit in man, that's not at issue. The issue is where does Scripture teach about a spirit that lives on after death. Even if you deny that neshamah is God's spirit. There still is nothing that teaches that man has a spirit that lives on after death.

 

I disagree that there is no need to describe the spirit of man.  Without this foundation, the discussion becomes moot.  In Revelation 6:9, who are those under His alter?  Where did they come from and do you believe this was after the rapture?  Is His kingdom spirit or mass?  If you say mass, how is it inside us?  You need to rightly divide scripture to understand.

 

It's interesting that you say I need to rightly divide the word when I'm the one who is building a case based on what is stated in Scripture rather than inferences.

 

 

There is a difference between building a case and dividing scripture.  Scripture does not need to have a case built for it. Scripture is clear enough if ones eyes are open, heart of flesh and ears unplugged.  Only those who go against scripture has to build their case.

 

Regarding the spirit in man, I don't have a problem discussing it if you can show me where it's taught. You've rejected my statement that neshamah is God's spirit, so what is this spirit in man and where did it come from?

Your definition of the word is incorrect, which is why I disagree. Genesis 2:7 states "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

This clearly states that God gave man life by breathing into his nostrils. It does not say that God breathed His Spirit into man. The life God gave is the image of God, body, soul and spirit. I tried to show you that if man had Gods Spirit in him from the beginning, then His Spirit will not allow man to sin because He cannot sin. Man, however, has a rebellious spirit in him and disobeys God. That is the basic proof you ask for.

 

His kingdom is physical, The phrase within you can also be translated among you. This obviously is the better translation since Jesus was talking to the Pharisees. I don't think the kingdom of God was within them. This is also the early Christian understanding of the phrase.

Look up the Greek word "enotos" - G1787 It means inside, within. It does not mean around or among.

 

 

Tertullian commented on the passage in his refutation of Marcion.     Against Marcion, Book 4 Chapter 35.

 

“The kingdom of God,” He says, “cometh not with observation; neither do they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”Now, who will not interpret the words “within you” to mean in your and, within your power, if you hear, and do the commandment of God? If, however, the kingdom of God lies in His commandment, set before your mind Moses on the other side, according to our antitheses, and you will find the self-same view of the case.

Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.

 

I believe the souls under the alter is allegory or metaphorical. I believe it's an allusion to the Genesis account of Able's martyrdom. Remember God said to Cain, you brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. I don't think Able's blood was literally speaking to God. One has to wonder why these souls are under the altar. What was the alter for? It was for sacrifices, the martyrs sacrificed their lives for God. In Leviticus we are told that the soul is in the blood. combine these three and you have the souls under the alter.  

 

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. (Lev 17:11 KJV)

 

Life is translated from nephesh, the soul is in the blood. It seems to me that a spirit or a ghost isn't in the blood. Therefore I don't think the case can be made that these are some sort of spirit or ghost of those who were martyred.

You are depending upon mans logic and not scripture. I suggest and encourage you to study Scripture alone with His guidance. When Jesus said within, that is what he meant.

When Paul said in 1 Corinthians 5:3 "For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed." was did he mean?

When Paul stated in 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord., was he lying or does one become raptured upon death, meaning that are millions of raptures?

Have you ever wondered why Jesus would send us the Holy Spirit if He was already in us?

 

I'm using human reasoning? Dude, what I've said is clearly stated in the passages I posted. On the other hand you guys have posted passages from which you have inferred you claims. The passages didn't  state what you guys claimed. It seems to me that using inferences to make your case is human reasoning,  Look at the two passages you've posted here, Neither of them say that one goes to heaven when they die or that man has a spirit or ghost that lives on after death. The only way one can derive that is by inference.

 

 

 

Jesus didn't say within, the translator did. Jesus probably spoke it in Aramaic or Greek. Luke wrote it in Greek and the Greek word "entos" means.

 

1787 ἐντός entos {en-tos'}

Meaning: 1) within, inside 1a) within you i.e. in the midst of you 1b) within you i.e. your soul

Origin: from 1722;; prep

 

Usage: AV - within 2; 2

 

As I pointed out, Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees when He said that. Is the kingdom of God within the Pharisees?

 

 

When Paul said in 1 Corinthians 5:3 "For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed." was did he mean?

 

It's figurative. It's like saying I'm with you in spirit. You're not suggesting that Paul had a spirit that he was able to send somewhere apart from his body are you?

 

 

When Paul stated in 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord., was he lying or does one become raptured upon death, meaning that are millions of raptures?

 

The context is speaking of the mortal body being overclothed with the immortal body.

 

KJV 2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2Co 5:1-8 KJV)

 

Paul is actually saying the opposite of what you guys are claiming. He's not looking to put off the body, he's looking to be "overclosthed" with his immortal body. The phrase "clothed upon" means to put on over. He's talking about putting on his immortal body over his mortal body that he not be found naked.  In order  for Paul to put on his immortal body he must be with the Lord. He will receive his resurrected body when the Lord returns. As he was writing he was in his mortal body that was subject to death, pain, and sin, His immortal body won't be. He knows one day he's going to die. The Scriptures say the dead know nothing. So Paul would be alive one moment, he would die and the next thing he would know was the resurrection and the presence of the Lord.

 

There is nothing in this passage that requires a spirit or ghost that continues after death. Paul makes no mention of a spirit or ghost that continues after death. The context of the passage has nothing to do with a spirit or ghost that lives on after death. One thing to keep in mind is that Paul was a Pharisee. The Pharisees didn't believe in a spirit or ghost that continues after death. They believed that when a person died they were dead until the resurrection.

 

I didn't say it was the Holy Spirit that was put into a person. It's obviously not the Holy Spirit because this spirit/breath is in all living things. The Holly Spirit is not in evil men and I don't believe He's in the animals either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  0
  • Topics Per Day:  0
  • Content Count:  559
  • Content Per Day:  0.15
  • Reputation:   136
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  09/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  03/01/1962

 

 

Nonsense. Where do you think the dead in Christ go, seeing as Jesus says He will never leave or forsake us---that we will never be separated from Him? That we walk in the light as He is in the light? That we inherit life as He is the Life? Certainly no scripture teaches us that we inherit soul sleep, or separation from God, or even dormancy. Can you think in terms of spiritual beings, or are you completely boxed in by the thought that we are only flesh beings?

 

John 6:50 (AMP)

50 [but] this is the Bread that comes down from heaven, so that [any]one may eat of it and never die.

 

John 11:25-26 (NLT)

25 Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. 26 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?”

 

The dead in Christ go to the grave like everyone else.

 

Again, the proof texting doesn't prove your point. A sentence without context can be used to say many things. These two passages from John, are you suggesting that you won't die? Paul said the wages of sin is death, are you sinless that you won't die?

 

How do you view Ezekiel 18:1-9 then? And particularly verse 4?

 

Ezekiel 18:1-9

1 The word of the Lord came to me: “What do youmean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge’? As I live, declares the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

“If a man is righteous and does what is just and right— if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman in her time of menstrual impurity, does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, does not lend at interest or take any profit,withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man, walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully—he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord God.

In other words people have souls. And the souls of those who do evil shall be punished. Or do you see this passage differently?

God bless,

GE

 

If  you look at the creation of man it says that God breathed his breath/spirit into the body of Adam and Adam became a living soul. The fish and the animals are also called souls. It would seem from this that a soul is a being. So if God says the souls of the fathers are mine it would seem that He saying the lives of the fathers are mine. Nephesh is translated life in other places in the Scriptures.

 

 

KJV Numbers 35:31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  0
  • Topics Per Day:  0
  • Content Count:  559
  • Content Per Day:  0.15
  • Reputation:   136
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  09/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  03/01/1962

Amen , floating axe. Someone told me not long ago, don't cast your pearls before the swine. There are some who just want to argue. They don't want to believe, or they do not have the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, or probably both. I know you must have mentioned this one, but when Stephen was being stoned to death in Acts 7:59: "They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said '"Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."' NASV. Since he saw Jesus standing in honor of him, I do believe he was expecting his spirit to be with Jesus in heaven. While a dying confession is accepted in courts, I doubt if butch will accept Stephen's as truth. He seems to be accustomed to some sort of formal debate that has rules, but he doesn't tell us what the rules are. Moreover he is more interested in playing the game than knowing the truth. The problem is that his real arguement is with God. And the sad thing is that he can't win. It will require him to humble himself as a little child and surrender to his intellect and arguements to his Creator. Of course, that is just my opinion.

Wow, that's pretty amazing since no one has presented anything that teaches one has a spirit that lives on after death or that one goes to Heaven when they die. What I've said is plainly stated in the Scriptures yet the counter argument is from inference. You spoke about seeking the truth. I've been doing so for some years now. The includes going back to the source and rejecting the teachings of men. The idea of ascending into the heavens is from Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism. he apostle John called the Gnostics antichrist. If one is searching for truth then they'll accept whatever the Scriptures say, not try to counter them with inferences. Instead of putting forth inferences why not look at the Scriptures that I have presented in humility and be willing to change one's doctrine when it doesn't align with the Scriptures?

 

Think about this. According to most Christians the ultimate goal in life is to spend eternity in Heaven with the Lord. If this was the teaching of Scripture don't you think it would have at least been mentioned "one" time , even if just in passing? There is not a single passage of Scripture that says people go to Heaven when they die or that man has a spirit (other than God's) that lives on after death. Do you really believe that God would give all of the Bible and leave the most important part to inference?

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  0
  • Topics Per Day:  0
  • Content Count:  559
  • Content Per Day:  0.15
  • Reputation:   136
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  09/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  03/01/1962

Hi butch,

 

I don’t know who gave you that line of “proof texting” or if you made that up by yourself. But you do realize the Word of God is true each and every Word even though it seems to me that you do use that term to try to ignore verses of your choosing.

 

 

Ps 119:160  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

 

Pr 30:5  Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

 

 

 

 

 

God bless,

Tony

HI Tony,

 

Proof texting is taking a passage, removing it from it's context and saying, the Bibles says xyz. Every verse of Scriptures is part of a larger context. No verse stands alone. So whatever that verse means is determined by the context from which it is taken. When a person takes a verse of Scripture, removes it from it's context and attempts to prove something that passage is not dealing with they are proof texting. For instance The passage from 2 Cor 5. You guys insist that it proves that man has a spirit that lives on after death. Paul is talking about his mortal body and his future immortal body. In context he states that he's not looking to put of his body but rather to put on his immortal body. In the passage does says nothing about a spirit living on after death. So when one passage, "infers" from it something other than what Paul said and says the Bible says xyz, they are proof texting, because the passage is not addressing the subject to which they are applying it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  10
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  226
  • Content Per Day:  0.04
  • Reputation:   38
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  05/26/2008
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  05/15/1954

 

Amen , floating axe. Someone told me not long ago, don't cast your pearls before the swine. There are some who just want to argue. They don't want to believe, or they do not have the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, or probably both. I know you must have mentioned this one, but when Stephen was being stoned to death in Acts 7:59: "They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said '"Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."' NASV. Since he saw Jesus standing in honor of him, I do believe he was expecting his spirit to be with Jesus in heaven. While a dying confession is accepted in courts, I doubt if butch will accept Stephen's as truth. He seems to be accustomed to some sort of formal debate that has rules, but he doesn't tell us what the rules are. Moreover he is more interested in playing the game than knowing the truth. The problem is that his real arguement is with God. And the sad thing is that he can't win. It will require him to humble himself as a little child and surrender to his intellect and arguements to his Creator. Of course, that is just my opinion.

Wow, that's pretty amazing since no one has presented anything that teaches one has a spirit that lives on after death or that one goes to Heaven when they die. What I've said is plainly stated in the Scriptures yet the counter argument is from inference. You spoke about seeking the truth. I've been doing so for some years now. The includes going back to the source and rejecting the teachings of men. The idea of ascending into the heavens is from Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism. he apostle John called the Gnostics antichrist. If one is searching for truth then they'll accept whatever the Scriptures say, not try to counter them with inferences. Instead of putting forth inferences why not look at the Scriptures that I have presented in humility and be willing to change one's doctrine when it doesn't align with the Scriptures?

 

Think about this. According to most Christians the ultimate goal in life is to spend eternity in Heaven with the Lord. If this was the teaching of Scripture don't you think it would have at least been mentioned "one" time , even if just in passing? There is not a single passage of Scripture that says people go to Heaven when they die or that man has a spirit (other than God's) that lives on after death. Do you really believe that God would give all of the Bible and leave the most important part to inference?

 

 

 

Hi butch,

 

I think the key is that we will ever be with the Lord. I think that we will come back to earth so spending eternity in heaven would not be correct.

 

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

 

Re 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  0
  • Topics Per Day:  0
  • Content Count:  559
  • Content Per Day:  0.15
  • Reputation:   136
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  09/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  03/01/1962

 

 

 

He told the Jews and His disciples that He was going to the one who sent Him and they could not go. In order for them to be with Him He needed to come back as He told them in John 14.

 

KJV John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (Joh 14:1-3 KJV)

 

 

It seems pretty clear that no one is going there.

 

However, if you'd put your passages in context and consider them you'd see that they are not saying what you believe they are.

 

 

 

 

How do you get that?

 

All believers go to God at the point of death, and all are with Jesus right now and will return with Him and will receive their new changed, glorified bodies. We will always be with Him---forever

Unless you can show that from Scripture I'll have to assume it's an opinion.

 

 

You've been shown. You just disbelieve.

 

All I've been shown are proof texts. I've been asking from the beginning for Scripture that "teaches" that man has a spirit that lives on after death. No one has presented anything that "teaches" it. Instead what's been presented are passages from which the idea is being inferred.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Advanced Member
  • Followers:  0
  • Topic Count:  10
  • Topics Per Day:  0.00
  • Content Count:  226
  • Content Per Day:  0.04
  • Reputation:   38
  • Days Won:  0
  • Joined:  05/26/2008
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  05/15/1954

 

Hi butch,

 

I don’t know who gave you that line of “proof texting” or if you made that up by yourself. But you do realize the Word of God is true each and every Word even though it seems to me that you do use that term to try to ignore verses of your choosing.

 

 

Ps 119:160  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

 

Pr 30:5  Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

 

 

 

 

 

God bless,

Tony

HI Tony,

 

Proof texting is taking a passage, removing it from it's context and saying, the Bibles says xyz. Every verse of Scriptures is part of a larger context. No verse stands alone. So whatever that verse means is determined by the context from which it is taken. When a person takes a verse of Scripture, removes it from it's context and attempts to prove something that passage is not dealing with they are proof texting. For instance The passage from 2 Cor 5. You guys insist that it proves that man has a spirit that lives on after death. Paul is talking about his mortal body and his future immortal body. In context he states that he's not looking to put of his body but rather to put on his immortal body. In the passage does says nothing about a spirit living on after death. So when one passage, "infers" from it something other than what Paul said and says the Bible says xyz, they are proof texting, because the passage is not addressing the subject to which they are applying it.

 

 

Hi butch,

 

I have taken nothing out of context you are just ignoring what is being said because it disagrees with your beliefs.

 

Where do you your beliefs anyway?

 

Watchtower?

 

 

God bless,

Tony

Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Group:  Senior Member
  • Followers:  1
  • Topic Count:  0
  • Topics Per Day:  0
  • Content Count:  559
  • Content Per Day:  0.15
  • Reputation:   136
  • Days Won:  2
  • Joined:  09/09/2013
  • Status:  Offline
  • Birthday:  03/01/1962

 

 

Amen , floating axe. Someone told me not long ago, don't cast your pearls before the swine. There are some who just want to argue. They don't want to believe, or they do not have the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, or probably both. I know you must have mentioned this one, but when Stephen was being stoned to death in Acts 7:59: "They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said '"Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."' NASV. Since he saw Jesus standing in honor of him, I do believe he was expecting his spirit to be with Jesus in heaven. While a dying confession is accepted in courts, I doubt if butch will accept Stephen's as truth. He seems to be accustomed to some sort of formal debate that has rules, but he doesn't tell us what the rules are. Moreover he is more interested in playing the game than knowing the truth. The problem is that his real arguement is with God. And the sad thing is that he can't win. It will require him to humble himself as a little child and surrender to his intellect and arguements to his Creator. Of course, that is just my opinion.

Wow, that's pretty amazing since no one has presented anything that teaches one has a spirit that lives on after death or that one goes to Heaven when they die. What I've said is plainly stated in the Scriptures yet the counter argument is from inference. You spoke about seeking the truth. I've been doing so for some years now. The includes going back to the source and rejecting the teachings of men. The idea of ascending into the heavens is from Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism. he apostle John called the Gnostics antichrist. If one is searching for truth then they'll accept whatever the Scriptures say, not try to counter them with inferences. Instead of putting forth inferences why not look at the Scriptures that I have presented in humility and be willing to change one's doctrine when it doesn't align with the Scriptures?

 

Think about this. According to most Christians the ultimate goal in life is to spend eternity in Heaven with the Lord. If this was the teaching of Scripture don't you think it would have at least been mentioned "one" time , even if just in passing? There is not a single passage of Scripture that says people go to Heaven when they die or that man has a spirit (other than God's) that lives on after death. Do you really believe that God would give all of the Bible and leave the most important part to inference?

 

 

 

Hi butch,

 

I think the key is that we will ever be with the Lord. I think that we will come back to earth so spending eternity in heaven would not be correct.

 

1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

 

Re 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

Hi Tony,

 

I was just pointing out what is probably the majority belief.

 

It's interesting that you posted the verse from 1 Thess 4. If you're coming back with Jesus what exactly is it that is going to meet the Lord in the air. How are you meeting Him if you are already with Him. To meet someone can mean two things. One can meet someone, someone they didn't know or they can meet someone, at a location. If you come back with Jesus you're not meeting Him you're with Him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...