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Hold on a minute, you said that when man dies, God takes back His Spirit, and man has no spirit within him that lives on after death.

 

 

Regarding the spirit in man, I don't have a problem discussing it if you can show me where it's taught. You've rejected my statement that neshamah is God's spirit, so what is this spirit in man and where did it come from?

Your definition of the word is incorrect, which is why I disagree. Genesis 2:7 states "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

This clearly states that God gave man life by breathing into his nostrils. It does not say that God breathed His Spirit into man. The life God gave is the image of God, body, soul and spirit. I tried to show you that if man had Gods Spirit in him from the beginning, then His Spirit will not allow man to sin because He cannot sin. Man, however, has a rebellious spirit in him and disobeys God. That is the basic proof you ask for.

Then you say:

 

I didn't say it was the Holy Spirit that was put into a person. It's obviously not the Holy Spirit because this spirit/breath is in all living things. The Holly Spirit is not in evil men and I don't believe He's in the animals either.

Gods Spirit IS the Holy Spirit. He has no other. The whole discussion began when you implied the following:

 

Hi OneLight,

The spirit that we have is God's spirit/breath that is breathed into every living creature. I am saying that when God takes His spirit/breath back there is nothing in a man to live on.

When God retrieves His Spirit man is dead and remains dead until God breathes His breath/spirit back into that man at the resurrection.

You did say that the spirit of man is Gods Spirit and He will take it back upon their death. This is the whole foundation you used to indicate that man does not have a spirit that lives on after death. Are you now reconsidering your stance on this?

You are going in circles with this, or you think God has more than one Spirit. You are also incorrect in implying that the spirit God gave man is the same spirit in all other living creatures. It is not. If you belong to a local body, I encourage you to get with the elders and discuss this issue. I say this because you are not listening to anything anyone is saying. You are just defending your position and building walls. I am not interested in continuing this conversation if I have to break down walls each time I reply.

Come on man be serious. I've present clear passages of Scripture. I've shown that "neshamah" and "ruach" are used interchangeably in the Scripture. I've shown that "nepesh", soul is used of both man and animal. I've shown that man and animal have "one breath".

All you done is twist the meaning of scripture to fit your own theology. Show me anywhere in scripture where God blew into the nose of a fish, bird or any other animal. Their spirit is not like our spirit no matter how far you try to stretch scripture.

 

16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.

17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:16-21 KJV)

 

There are no inferences here, it's plainly stated. Man is no different than the beast. As one dies so does the other. They all have "One breath", ruwach. Ruwach is translated Pnuma in Greek. That is the word spirit. Solomon said they all have one. Both man and animal all have "one" spirit. If God retrieves that spirit all flesh will perish and return to the dust.

You quote Ecclesiastes as if it were more than a big picture of life. I have nothing against the book when referenced in the manner it was written. What you provided above is the big picture of life in general. Everything created dies. Even trees fall and become soil, so will man turn back to dust. Our bodies are not brought back to life. We are given new bodies, heavenly bodies.

2 Corinthians 5:1-5

 

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

What is there to cover if not our spirit?

 

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

 

Notice he said mad shall return to dust. This statement is made several times in the Scriptures.

Our flesh will return to dust, but our spirit live on. Have you done a study on Elihu?

 

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:17-19 KJV)

 

 

16 The trees of the LORD are full of sap; the cedars of Lebanon, which he hath planted;

17 Where the birds make their nests: as for the stork, the fir trees are her house.

18 The high hills are a refuge for the wild goats; and the rocks for the conies.

19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

20 Thou makest darkness, and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep forth.

21 The young lions roar after their prey, and seek their meat from God.

22 The sun ariseth, they gather themselves together, and lay them down in their dens.

23 Man goeth forth unto his work and to his labour until the evening.

24 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.

25So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.

26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.

27 These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season.

28That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good.

29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

30Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

(Psa 104:16-30 KJV)

 

 

Here David says pretty much the same thing Solomon said. Speaking of man and animals he said God takes away their "ruwach" and they return to the dust. If He sends forth His "ruwach" they are created.

 

These are clear statements in Scripture there is nothing inferred here. If we're going to talk about building walls and studying Scripture alone  maybe it's not me who needs to do that. Since there are no passages of Scripture that teach a man has a spirit that lives on after death or that goes to Heaven and we have quite a bit of Scripture that speaks of how man was created, what he was created with, and where he goes when he dies, maybe it's the doctrines that you guys hold that should be reconsidered.

I would point that what you are saying is your personal theology, not what scripture teaches. I also see that yo are reading way too much into the idea that God creates and He takes away. Don't read into scripture what is not there.

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Hi butch,

 

I don’t know who gave you that line of “proof texting” or if you made that up by yourself. But you do realize the Word of God is true each and every Word even though it seems to me that you do use that term to try to ignore verses of your choosing.

 

 

Ps 119:160  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

 

Pr 30:5  Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

 

 

 

 

 

God bless,

Tony

HI Tony,

 

Proof texting is taking a passage, removing it from it's context and saying, the Bibles says xyz. Every verse of Scriptures is part of a larger context. No verse stands alone. So whatever that verse means is determined by the context from which it is taken. When a person takes a verse of Scripture, removes it from it's context and attempts to prove something that passage is not dealing with they are proof texting. For instance The passage from 2 Cor 5. You guys insist that it proves that man has a spirit that lives on after death. Paul is talking about his mortal body and his future immortal body. In context he states that he's not looking to put of his body but rather to put on his immortal body. In the passage does says nothing about a spirit living on after death. So when one passage, "infers" from it something other than what Paul said and says the Bible says xyz, they are proof texting, because the passage is not addressing the subject to which they are applying it.

 

Hi butch,

 

I have taken nothing out of context you are just ignoring what is being said because it disagrees with your beliefs.

 

Where do you your beliefs anyway?

 

Watchtower?

 

 

God bless,

Tony

Then show m where 2 Cor 5 is talking about a spirit that lives on after death or that people go to Heaven.

 

 

Hi butch,

 

Watchtower really? That’s got to be the worst.

 

 

2Co 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

 

Kind of different from the original creation of man.

 

2  For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

 

That new house will be a lot better,

 

3  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

 

Naked without our bodies.

 

4  For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

 

We don’t want our current body but we don’t want to be without a body so we desire the new body which is in heaven.

 

5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

 

God made our new body.

 

6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

 

while we are in our current body we are not with the Lord.

 

7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

We would like to die and be present with the Lord.

 

That about covers it.

 

Absent from the body is the key. If we are just our bodies then how can that be?

 

9  Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

11  Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

12 ¶  For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

13  For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15  And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 ¶  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20  Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

The key is that Paul doesn't what to be without the body. It's clear from his words that he expects to clothe his mortal body with his immortal body. He makes no mention at all about wanting to leave his body and be a spirit that lives on after death. The passage say nothing about being a spirit and living on after death. Seriously, you do realize this is an inference, right?

 

It was the desire of the Greek and the Gnostics to escape the body and ascend into the Heavens.

 

Hi butch,

Ok I am tiring of your “yea hath God said” routine.

God’s Word is true.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

So why don’t you show me some quotes from the early church fathers since you have indicated that is what you believe in them: that deny what the Bible has said about mankind having a spirit, soul, and body.

Also don’t waste my time with paraphrasing but give me exact quotes and also give me exact locations as I have been giving you.

God bless,

Tony

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Hi butch,

 

I don’t know who gave you that line of “proof texting” or if you made that up by yourself. But you do realize the Word of God is true each and every Word even though it seems to me that you do use that term to try to ignore verses of your choosing.

 

 

Ps 119:160  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

 

Pr 30:5  Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

 

 

 

 

 

God bless,

Tony

HI Tony,

 

Proof texting is taking a passage, removing it from it's context and saying, the Bibles says xyz. Every verse of Scriptures is part of a larger context. No verse stands alone. So whatever that verse means is determined by the context from which it is taken. When a person takes a verse of Scripture, removes it from it's context and attempts to prove something that passage is not dealing with they are proof texting. For instance The passage from 2 Cor 5. You guys insist that it proves that man has a spirit that lives on after death. Paul is talking about his mortal body and his future immortal body. In context he states that he's not looking to put of his body but rather to put on his immortal body. In the passage does says nothing about a spirit living on after death. So when one passage, "infers" from it something other than what Paul said and says the Bible says xyz, they are proof texting, because the passage is not addressing the subject to which they are applying it.

 

 

Hi butch,

 

I have taken nothing out of context you are just ignoring what is being said because it disagrees with your beliefs.

 

Where do you your beliefs anyway?

 

Watchtower?

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

Then show m where 2 Cor 5 is talking about a spirit that lives on after death or that people go to Heaven.

 

 

 

Hi butch,

 

Watchtower really? That’s got to be the worst.

 

 

2Co 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

 

Kind of different from the original creation of man.

 

2  For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

 

That new house will be a lot better,

 

3  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

 

Naked without our bodies.

 

4  For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

 

We don’t want our current body but we don’t want to be without a body so we desire the new body which is in heaven.

 

5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

 

God made our new body.

 

6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

 

while we are in our current body we are not with the Lord.

 

7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

We would like to die and be present with the Lord.

 

That about covers it.

 

Absent from the body is the key. If we are just our bodies then how can that be?

 

9  Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

11  Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

12 ¶  For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

13  For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15  And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 ¶  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20  Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

The key is that Paul doesn't what to be without the body. It's clear from his words that he expects to clothe his mortal body with his immortal body. He makes no mention at all about wanting to leave his body and be a spirit that lives on after death. The passage say nothing about being a spirit and living on after death. Seriously, you do realize this is an inference, right?

 

It was the desire of the Greek and the Gnostics to escape the body and ascend into the Heavens.

 

 

Hi butch,

Ok I am tiring of your “yea hath God said” routine.

God’s Word is true.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

So why don’t you show me some quotes from the early church fathers since you have indicated that is what you believe in them: that deny what the Bible has said about mankind having a spirit, soul, and body.

Also don’t waste my time with paraphrasing but give me exact quotes and also give me exact locations as I have been giving you.

God bless,

Tony

 

if anyone is wasting time it's not me. I've shown the Scriptures. If want to talk about denying the Scriptures you might want to consider what you're saying. Scripture says the dead know nothing. You say the are conscious spirits. I'll go with Scripture.

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Hold on a minute, you said that when man dies, God takes back His Spirit, and man has no spirit within him that lives on after death.

 

 

 

Regarding the spirit in man, I don't have a problem discussing it if you can show me where it's taught. You've rejected my statement that neshamah is God's spirit, so what is this spirit in man and where did it come from?

Your definition of the word is incorrect, which is why I disagree. Genesis 2:7 states "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

This clearly states that God gave man life by breathing into his nostrils. It does not say that God breathed His Spirit into man. The life God gave is the image of God, body, soul and spirit. I tried to show you that if man had Gods Spirit in him from the beginning, then His Spirit will not allow man to sin because He cannot sin. Man, however, has a rebellious spirit in him and disobeys God. That is the basic proof you ask for.

 

Then you say:

 

I didn't say it was the Holy Spirit that was put into a person. It's obviously not the Holy Spirit because this spirit/breath is in all living things. The Holly Spirit is not in evil men and I don't believe He's in the animals either.

Gods Spirit IS the Holy Spirit. He has no other. The whole discussion began when you implied the following:

 

Hi OneLight,

The spirit that we have is God's spirit/breath that is breathed into every living creature. I am saying that when God takes His spirit/breath back there is nothing in a man to live on.

When God retrieves His Spirit man is dead and remains dead until God breathes His breath/spirit back into that man at the resurrection.

You did say that the spirit of man is Gods Spirit and He will take it back upon their death. This is the whole foundation you used to indicate that man does not have a spirit that lives on after death. Are you now reconsidering your stance on this?

You are going in circles with this, or you think God has more than one Spirit. You are also incorrect in implying that the spirit God gave man is the same spirit in all other living creatures. It is not. If you belong to a local body, I encourage you to get with the elders and discuss this issue. I say this because you are not listening to anything anyone is saying. You are just defending your position and building walls. I am not interested in continuing this conversation if I have to break down walls each time I reply.

 

Come on man be serious. I've present clear passages of Scripture. I've shown that "neshamah" and "ruach" are used interchangeably in the Scripture. I've shown that "nepesh", soul is used of both man and animal. I've shown that man and animal have "one breath".

 

All you done is twist the meaning of scripture to fit your own theology. Show me anywhere in scripture where God blew into the nose of a fish, bird or any other animal. Their spirit is not like our spirit no matter how far you try to stretch scripture.

 

16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.

17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:16-21 KJV)

 

There are no inferences here, it's plainly stated. Man is no different than the beast. As one dies so does the other. They all have "One breath", ruwach. Ruwach is translated Pnuma in Greek. That is the word spirit. Solomon said they all have one. Both man and animal all have "one" spirit. If God retrieves that spirit all flesh will perish and return to the dust.

You quote Ecclesiastes as if it were more than a big picture of life. I have nothing against the book when referenced in the manner it was written. What you provided above is the big picture of life in general. Everything created dies. Even trees fall and become soil, so will man turn back to dust. Our bodies are not brought back to life. We are given new bodies, heavenly bodies.

2 Corinthians 5:1-5

 

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

What is there to cover if not our spirit?

 

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

 

Notice he said mad shall return to dust. This statement is made several times in the Scriptures.

Our flesh will return to dust, but our spirit live on. Have you done a study on Elihu?

 

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:17-19 KJV)

 

 

16 The trees of the LORD are full of sap; the cedars of Lebanon, which he hath planted;

17 Where the birds make their nests: as for the stork, the fir trees are her house.

18 The high hills are a refuge for the wild goats; and the rocks for the conies.

19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

20 Thou makest darkness, and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep forth.

21 The young lions roar after their prey, and seek their meat from God.

22 The sun ariseth, they gather themselves together, and lay them down in their dens.

23 Man goeth forth unto his work and to his labour until the evening.

24 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.

25So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.

26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.

27 These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season.

28That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good.

29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

30Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

(Psa 104:16-30 KJV)

 

 

Here David says pretty much the same thing Solomon said. Speaking of man and animals he said God takes away their "ruwach" and they return to the dust. If He sends forth His "ruwach" they are created.

 

These are clear statements in Scripture there is nothing inferred here. If we're going to talk about building walls and studying Scripture alone  maybe it's not me who needs to do that. Since there are no passages of Scripture that teach a man has a spirit that lives on after death or that goes to Heaven and we have quite a bit of Scripture that speaks of how man was created, what he was created with, and where he goes when he dies, maybe it's the doctrines that you guys hold that should be reconsidered.

 

Seriously? I give Scripture that plainly states what I've said and I'm reading into it, yet you guys present Scripture that doesn't state what you claim so you have to infer it from the passage and I'm the one reading something into Scripture? It seems to that some just don't want to let go of their doctrines.

 

Our bodies aren't brought back? Have you read what Jesus said to Thomas, put you fingers in the hole and you hand in my side? Jesus had the same body. Read Ezekiel 37 it's about the resurrection. Those body were not new, they were dry bones that God resurrected. If you don't have the same body then you have no resurrection. Resurrection means to stand again. The Scriptures repeatedly speak of the resurrection of the dead. If that's not the flesh body what is it. You can't say it's your spirit because you claim your spirit doesn't die.

Edited by Butch5
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Hi butch,

 

I don’t know who gave you that line of “proof texting” or if you made that up by yourself. But you do realize the Word of God is true each and every Word even though it seems to me that you do use that term to try to ignore verses of your choosing.

 

 

Ps 119:160  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

 

Pr 30:5  Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

 

 

 

 

 

God bless,

Tony

HI Tony,

 

Proof texting is taking a passage, removing it from it's context and saying, the Bibles says xyz. Every verse of Scriptures is part of a larger context. No verse stands alone. So whatever that verse means is determined by the context from which it is taken. When a person takes a verse of Scripture, removes it from it's context and attempts to prove something that passage is not dealing with they are proof texting. For instance The passage from 2 Cor 5. You guys insist that it proves that man has a spirit that lives on after death. Paul is talking about his mortal body and his future immortal body. In context he states that he's not looking to put of his body but rather to put on his immortal body. In the passage does says nothing about a spirit living on after death. So when one passage, "infers" from it something other than what Paul said and says the Bible says xyz, they are proof texting, because the passage is not addressing the subject to which they are applying it.

 

Hi butch,

 

I have taken nothing out of context you are just ignoring what is being said because it disagrees with your beliefs.

 

Where do you your beliefs anyway?

 

Watchtower?

 

 

God bless,

Tony

Then show m where 2 Cor 5 is talking about a spirit that lives on after death or that people go to Heaven.

 

 

Hi butch,

 

Watchtower really? That’s got to be the worst.

 

 

2Co 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

 

Kind of different from the original creation of man.

 

2  For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

 

That new house will be a lot better,

 

3  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

 

Naked without our bodies.

 

4  For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

 

We don’t want our current body but we don’t want to be without a body so we desire the new body which is in heaven.

 

5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

 

God made our new body.

 

6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

 

while we are in our current body we are not with the Lord.

 

7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

We would like to die and be present with the Lord.

 

That about covers it.

 

Absent from the body is the key. If we are just our bodies then how can that be?

 

9  Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

11  Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

12 ¶  For we commend not ourselves again unto you, but give you occasion to glory on our behalf, that ye may have somewhat to answer them which glory in appearance, and not in heart.

13  For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.

14  For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15  And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

16 ¶  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19  To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20  Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21  For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

 

God bless,

Tony

The key is that Paul doesn't what to be without the body. It's clear from his words that he expects to clothe his mortal body with his immortal body. He makes no mention at all about wanting to leave his body and be a spirit that lives on after death. The passage say nothing about being a spirit and living on after death. Seriously, you do realize this is an inference, right?

 

It was the desire of the Greek and the Gnostics to escape the body and ascend into the Heavens.

 

Hi butch,

Ok I am tiring of your “yea hath God said” routine.

God’s Word is true.

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)

So why don’t you show me some quotes from the early church fathers since you have indicated that is what you believe in them: that deny what the Bible has said about mankind having a spirit, soul, and body.

Also don’t waste my time with paraphrasing but give me exact quotes and also give me exact locations as I have been giving you.

God bless,

Tony

if anyone is wasting time it's not me. I've shown the Scriptures. If want to talk about denying the Scriptures you might want to consider what you're saying. Scripture says the dead know nothing. You say the are conscious spirits. I'll go with Scripture.

 

hi butch,

now your denying that you deny the Scriptures?

perhaps you are doing it without knowing it.

perhaps,

God bless,

Tony

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Hold on a minute, you said that when man dies, God takes back His Spirit, and man has no spirit within him that lives on after death.

 

 

 

Regarding the spirit in man, I don't have a problem discussing it if you can show me where it's taught. You've rejected my statement that neshamah is God's spirit, so what is this spirit in man and where did it come from?

Your definition of the word is incorrect, which is why I disagree. Genesis 2:7 states "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

This clearly states that God gave man life by breathing into his nostrils. It does not say that God breathed His Spirit into man. The life God gave is the image of God, body, soul and spirit. I tried to show you that if man had Gods Spirit in him from the beginning, then His Spirit will not allow man to sin because He cannot sin. Man, however, has a rebellious spirit in him and disobeys God. That is the basic proof you ask for.

 

Then you say:

 

I didn't say it was the Holy Spirit that was put into a person. It's obviously not the Holy Spirit because this spirit/breath is in all living things. The Holly Spirit is not in evil men and I don't believe He's in the animals either.

Gods Spirit IS the Holy Spirit. He has no other. The whole discussion began when you implied the following:

 

Hi OneLight,

The spirit that we have is God's spirit/breath that is breathed into every living creature. I am saying that when God takes His spirit/breath back there is nothing in a man to live on.

When God retrieves His Spirit man is dead and remains dead until God breathes His breath/spirit back into that man at the resurrection.

You did say that the spirit of man is Gods Spirit and He will take it back upon their death. This is the whole foundation you used to indicate that man does not have a spirit that lives on after death. Are you now reconsidering your stance on this?

You are going in circles with this, or you think God has more than one Spirit. You are also incorrect in implying that the spirit God gave man is the same spirit in all other living creatures. It is not. If you belong to a local body, I encourage you to get with the elders and discuss this issue. I say this because you are not listening to anything anyone is saying. You are just defending your position and building walls. I am not interested in continuing this conversation if I have to break down walls each time I reply.

 

Come on man be serious. I've present clear passages of Scripture. I've shown that "neshamah" and "ruach" are used interchangeably in the Scripture. I've shown that "nepesh", soul is used of both man and animal. I've shown that man and animal have "one breath".

 

All you done is twist the meaning of scripture to fit your own theology. Show me anywhere in scripture where God blew into the nose of a fish, bird or any other animal. Their spirit is not like our spirit no matter how far you try to stretch scripture.

 

16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.

17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

20All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? (Ecc 3:16-21 KJV)

 

There are no inferences here, it's plainly stated. Man is no different than the beast. As one dies so does the other. They all have "One breath", ruwach. Ruwach is translated Pnuma in Greek. That is the word spirit. Solomon said they all have one. Both man and animal all have "one" spirit. If God retrieves that spirit all flesh will perish and return to the dust.

You quote Ecclesiastes as if it were more than a big picture of life. I have nothing against the book when referenced in the manner it was written. What you provided above is the big picture of life in general. Everything created dies. Even trees fall and become soil, so will man turn back to dust. Our bodies are not brought back to life. We are given new bodies, heavenly bodies.

2 Corinthians 5:1-5

 

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

What is there to cover if not our spirit?

 

14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust. (Job 34:14-15 KJV)

 

Notice he said mad shall return to dust. This statement is made several times in the Scriptures.

Our flesh will return to dust, but our spirit live on. Have you done a study on Elihu?

 

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:17-19 KJV)

 

 

16 The trees of the LORD are full of sap; the cedars of Lebanon, which he hath planted;

17 Where the birds make their nests: as for the stork, the fir trees are her house.

18 The high hills are a refuge for the wild goats; and the rocks for the conies.

19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

20 Thou makest darkness, and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep forth.

21 The young lions roar after their prey, and seek their meat from God.

22 The sun ariseth, they gather themselves together, and lay them down in their dens.

23 Man goeth forth unto his work and to his labour until the evening.

24 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.

25So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.

26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.

27 These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season.

28That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good.

29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

30Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

(Psa 104:16-30 KJV)

 

 

Here David says pretty much the same thing Solomon said. Speaking of man and animals he said God takes away their "ruwach" and they return to the dust. If He sends forth His "ruwach" they are created.

 

These are clear statements in Scripture there is nothing inferred here. If we're going to talk about building walls and studying Scripture alone  maybe it's not me who needs to do that. Since there are no passages of Scripture that teach a man has a spirit that lives on after death or that goes to Heaven and we have quite a bit of Scripture that speaks of how man was created, what he was created with, and where he goes when he dies, maybe it's the doctrines that you guys hold that should be reconsidered.

I would point that what you are saying is your personal theology, not what scripture teaches. I also see that yo are reading way too much into the idea that God creates and He takes away. Don't read into scripture what is not there.

 

Seriously? I give Scripture that plainly states what I've said and I'm reading into it, yet you guys present Scripture that doesn't state what you claim so you have to infer it from the passage and I'm the one reading something into Scripture? It seems to that some just don't want to let go of their doctrines.

 

 

It is not scripture that is wrong, but what you are taking from what you read.  Many people have shown you where you are wrong.  You don't want to believe, that is your choice.  I'm not going to continue this back and forth if you are not even trying to understand, but just debate.  You want to debate the subject, find someone who has time to step into the SoapBox with you.

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if anyone is wasting time it's not me. I've shown the Scriptures. If want to talk about denying the Scriptures you might want to consider what you're saying. Scripture says the dead know nothing. You say the are conscious spirits. I'll go with Scripture.

 

 

Once again you prove that you misunderstand what God says. Of course the dead know nothing---their brains are not working. However, their spirits are alive, as are their souls, and all they have ever known of the world and of God is stored in those two parts.

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Do you guys understand what it means for Scripture to teach something? Do you understand what an inference is?

 

 

Do you, Butch? It is a difficult thing for one to allow Holy Spirit to teach His truth when one is hardened to it and is bound and determined to deny it even when it is boldly presented.

 

Our teacher is Holy Spirit, remember!

 

Well since the Scriptures are the truth and I've asked repeatedly to be shown where this "other" spirit is taught in the Scriptures and haven't been shown, I have to conclude that you guys aren't presenting the truth. Actually, it Plato doctrines that are being espoused, not the Bibles.

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if anyone is wasting time it's not me. I've shown the Scriptures. If want to talk about denying the Scriptures you might want to consider what you're saying. Scripture says the dead know nothing. You say the are conscious spirits. I'll go with Scripture.

 

 

Once again you prove that you misunderstand what God says. Of course the dead know nothing---their brains are not working. However, their spirits are alive, as are their souls, and all they have ever known of the world and of God is stored in those two parts.

Wow, and you say I don't understand the Scruiptures?

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Here is a quote from the Church Historian Eusebius. He sheds some light on how this doctrine infiltrated Christianity.

 

“Plato … plainly declares that a rational soul is the breath of God, and divides all things into two classes, intellectual and sensible: consisting of bodily structure; the one comprehended by the intellect alone, the other estimated by the judgment and the senses. The former class, therefore, which partakes of the divine spirit, and is uncompounded and immaterial, is eternal, and inherits everlasting life; but the latter, being entirely resolved into the elements of which it is composed, has no share in everlasting life. He [Plato] farther teaches the admirable doctrine, that those who have passed a life of virtue, that is, the spirits of good and holy men, are enshrined, after their separation from the body, in the fairest mansions of heaven. A doctrine not merely to be admired, but profitable too. For who can believe in such a statement, and aspire to such a happy lot, without desiring to practice righteousness and temperance, and to turn aside from vice? 

 

In the late 200's a few Christian leaders in Alexandria, a hotbed of Gnosticism fell prey to some of Plato's doctrines and tried to incorporate them into the faith.

 

Plato taught no "admirable doctrine". Please, don't start giving us quotes from heretics and unbelievers---ancient or otherwise.

 

That's my point. It's no admirable doctrine, yet you are espousing it.

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