What is Israel?

[JohnD]

The Church has been plodding along through history mostly doing the best it can under the circumstances of an absentee leadership... the people God intended to lead the way for the spreading of the Gospel to every creature (the Jewish leadership who were essentially bred for the job)... refused to participate... so the Gentile leadership had to take up the cause... side tracked and almost derailed by the Roman hijacking of the faith (in which the Roman Empire itself became a religion)... and from which the Protestant movement did not reform nearly enough... We see the Church divided into thousands and thousands of fractures, splinters, and outright chasms... because the matter of what is Israel has not been solved.

 

I used to witness on Messianic Jewish messageboards until the countermissionaries shut them down... not with truth but with persistent assaults and interruptions and they wore down the Jewish believers who simple wanted peace... not that their faith changed, they simple came to the realization it is best to keep it to themselves.  On one of these boards I debated a particularly polite but very persistent countermissionary whose screen name was Rabbi JT. We were discussing Isaiah 53 (Isaiah 52:12 - 53:12) the Suffering Servant prophecy which he interpreted as being Israel.  This is the standard Jewish interpretation of who the suffering servant is based on prior texts in Isaiah that say Israel is the servant of God.

 

The typical argument for Jesus being that suffering servant tend to be along the lines of the singleness of person being spoken of in the text. A sound argument but one that can be countered with other texts using idiomatic figures of speech (speaking of many as one). I had a pretty good argument along those lines that if the suffering servant is Israel then who are the people they are suffering for in the text? Are we and also Jewish people to believe that the God of Israel wants the people of Israel to suffer for the benefit of pagans and gentiles?

 

Side note... this is in fact true in the sense that the Jewish people have borne the burden and retaliation of the enemy for bringing truth into the world in two forms: written (the Bible) and personified (the Messiah). This among other reasons is why God still loves the Jewish people (even in their unbelief)  and has not given up on them (in fact he has a plan for them in the end times... their conversion to Yeshua Jesus as a last of the last resorts is why there even is a Great Tribulation)...

 

As I was debating the polite rabbi, the Spirit bade me grant his premise that Israel is the suffering servant in Isaiah 53. And as I did I freaked out my fellow believers who were privy to the discussion and the rabbi himself was shocked and pleased that a Christian apologist worth hi salt could see it the Jewish way. And the Spirit gave me the rest of the point...

 

"I agree with you that Israel is the suffering servant. But it is incumbent upon the interpreter of the passage to determine which Israel is being referred to in the text."

 

"What do you mean?" he asked.

 

"Well, there are several Israels... the patriarch Jacob, the ancient northern kingdom, the people of Israel (children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), the modern day State..."

 

"Hmm, yes, I see your point..."

 

"... and one more Israel we have not considered yet..."

 

"Oh?"

 

"The root meaning of the words that are shortened in the name Israel, or Yisra'el as you spell it... are these: Yish, Sarar, Elohiym are they not?"

 

Yish means "he" Sarar means "prince" and Elohiym means "God."

 

The text in Isaiah 52:13-53:12 does in fact speak of the suffering of an individual for the many... and the ultimate Prince of God would be none other than..."

 

Even he had to admit the ultimate Prince of God is the Messiah.

 

He didn't buy into Christianity at least not then... if more than a seed was planted there only God knows... but the truth is there for all to see.

[JohnD]

This begs the point that there is more to Israel than most know or realize.

 

It is the Messiah in person, ultimately. It is the living vehicle through which God ushered truth into the fallen world (the Bible and the Savior).

 

Israel is also the venue / battleground where God versus evil wages war.

 

That last one took some soul searching because about the time I started realizing the antichrist (put in a Hebrew expression: false messiah) would be Jewish... it broke my heart.

 

I am not Jewish by birth. But I feel for the Jewish people the way Jesus did when his heart broke as he pronounced prophetically the horrible future the Jewish people would face for not recognizing the time of his visitation...

 

It was not joy, or indigence in his heart when he spoke the words... it was a broken heart...

 

Luke 19:41-44 (NKJV)
41 Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it,
42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes.
43 “For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side,
44 “and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”

 

 

John 5:43 (NKJV)
43 “I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

 

"if" in the text can be translated "though"

 

"I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; though another comes in his own name, him you will receive."

[JohnD]

Israel is another thing...

 

...the house of salvation.

 

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (NKJV)
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

 

One of the clearest portrayals of the Gospel in the Old Testament / Tanakh is right here. And there is no mention of gentiles. Because there is no such thing as a gentile believer. It's an oxymoron. One is either born Jewish or gentile. But when faith comes there is the new man / person.

 

Galatians 3:24-28 (NKJV)
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

One what?

 

Romans 2:28-29 (NKJV)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

 

 

Galatians 6:13-16 (NKJV)
13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

 

Spirit Israel.

 

Romans 2:28-29 (NKJV)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

 

A teaching distinguishing a physical Jew (one born Jewish) from a Spirit Jew... going back at least as far as...

 

Deuteronomy 10:16 (NKJV)
16 “Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer.

 

A circumcision that can also include females, bond free, Gentile or Jew (again, Galatians 3:28). Btw the original Passover deliverance would have included any Gentile who followed Moses' instructions...

 

The spirit distinguished from the physical which is the only way this verse makes any sense:

 

Romans 9:6 (NKJV)
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

 

"all Israel" "complete Israel" "ultimate Israel" "Spirit Israel" is the Church... which Gentile born believers reject from antisemitism in their hearts and Jewish born people (believing or unbelieving) reject from pride in their hearts. 

 

But until we take hold of all truth in the scripture we are going to nullify the word of God and water down out witness and effectiveness (salt that lost its savor) and be divided and eternally bickering over traditions...

 

What is Israel?

 

 

 

[Guest]

My Prayer

 

Redeem Israel, O God, out of all his troubles. Psalms 25:22

 

Maranatha~!

[Qnts2]

The Church has been plodding along through history mostly doing the best it can under the circumstances of an absentee leadership... the people God intended to lead the way for the spreading of the Gospel to every creature (the Jewish leadership who were essentially bred for the job)... refused to participate... so the Gentile leadership had to take up the cause... side tracked and almost derailed by the Roman hijacking of the faith (in which the Roman Empire itself became a religion)... and from which the Protestant movement did not reform nearly enough... We see the Church divided into thousands and thousands of fractures, splinters, and outright chasms... because the matter of what is Israel has not been solved.

 

I used to witness on Messianic Jewish messageboards until the countermissionaries shut them down... not with truth but with persistent assaults and interruptions and they wore down the Jewish believers who simple wanted peace... not that their faith changed, they simple came to the realization it is best to keep it to themselves.  On one of these boards I debated a particularly polite but very persistent countermissionary whose screen name was Rabbi JT. We were discussing Isaiah 53 (Isaiah 52:12 - 53:12) the Suffering Servant prophecy which he interpreted as being Israel.  This is the standard Jewish interpretation of who the suffering servant is based on prior texts in Isaiah that say Israel is the servant of God.

 

The typical argument for Jesus being that suffering servant tend to be along the lines of the singleness of person being spoken of in the text. A sound argument but one that can be countered with other texts using idiomatic figures of speech (speaking of many as one). I had a pretty good argument along those lines that if the suffering servant is Israel then who are the people they are suffering for in the text? Are we and also Jewish people to believe that the God of Israel wants the people of Israel to suffer for the benefit of pagans and gentiles?

 

Side note... this is in fact true in the sense that the Jewish people have borne the burden and retaliation of the enemy for bringing truth into the world in two forms: written (the Bible) and personified (the Messiah). This among other reasons is why God still loves the Jewish people (even in their unbelief)  and has not given up on them (in fact he has a plan for them in the end times... their conversion to Yeshua Jesus as a last of the last resorts is why there even is a Great Tribulation)...

 

As I was debating the polite rabbi, the Spirit bade me grant his premise that Israel is the suffering servant in Isaiah 53. And as I did I freaked out my fellow believers who were privy to the discussion and the rabbi himself was shocked and pleased that a Christian apologist worth hi salt could see it the Jewish way. And the Spirit gave me the rest of the point...

 

"I agree with you that Israel is the suffering servant. But it is incumbent upon the interpreter of the passage to determine which Israel is being referred to in the text."

 

"What do you mean?" he asked.

 

"Well, there are several Israels... the patriarch Jacob, the ancient northern kingdom, the people of Israel (children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), the modern day State..."

 

"Hmm, yes, I see your point..."

 

"... and one more Israel we have not considered yet..."

 

"Oh?"

 

"The root meaning of the words that are shortened in the name Israel, or Yisra'el as you spell it... are these: Yish, Sarar, Elohiym are they not?"

 

Yish means "he" Sarar means "prince" and Elohiym means "God."

 

The text in Isaiah 52:13-53:12 does in fact speak of the suffering of an individual for the many... and the ultimate Prince of God would be none other than..."

 

Even he had to admit the ultimate Prince of God is the Messiah.

 

He didn't buy into Christianity at least not then... if more than a seed was planted there only God knows... but the truth is there for all to see.

 

Having debated with anti-missionaries many times, let me just say that the Isaiah 53 modern interpretation of it in Judaism, is that it is about the suffering experienced by the Jewish people. That was not always so. In Judaism, a method of learning is debate where many differing opinions are offered and discussed. While the possibility of Isaiah 53 being about the children of Israel has been around for a long time, the final position is called the majority opinion. That Isaiah 53 is about the Messiah has been an opinion offered longer then the idea the Isaiah 53 is about the people. Isaiah 53 referring to the Messiah was the majority opinion from before the time of Jesus to around 1000 ce. Rambam wrote that Isaiah 53 was the majority opinion while Ramban questioned it, but accepted it because it was the majority opinion. It was Rashi, a contemporary of Ramban who put forth the minority opinion that Isaiah 53 was talking about the children of Israel, and not the Messiah. Since Rashi, the majority opinion changed.

 

 Now, here is the issue with multiple Israels. The simple term 'Israel' without any qualifiers is rarely used. I agree that Jacob was renamed Israel. He had 12 children who would be called the children of Israel as well as all of their descendents. The OT/Tenakh refers to all people by their linage so being children of Jacob/Israel would be a standard terminology. It is not just Israel, but children of Israel in scripture. 

 

Another issue of course is the use of the term 'nation'. In Hebrew the word is goy, and does not refer to a country but refers to a people group. People groups/nations are people of a common linage from a forefather. The Jewish people are all from the linage of Jacob/Israel. Whether the Jewish people live in the land or outside of the land, they are still children of Israel. God promised land to Abraham, then to Isaac and finally Jacob, so it is Jacobs children and descendents who received the promise of God for the land. The land is called the land of Israel in scripture. Just as the Egyptians are a nation/people group, and the land is called the land of the Egyptians (Mitzraim). The name of the country, Israel, is modern, not biblical.  

 

Now for the Kingdoms when the children of Israel are divided between the north and the south. In the southern Kingdom, the largest tribe was Judah, then Benjamin, and most of the Levites, as well as some of each of the remaining tribes. In the northern Kingdom the largest tribe was Ephraim, with a few of Benjamin, and the majority of the other tribes. Since the northern Kingdom had the majority of 10 tribes although not all of the 10 tribes, it was generally called either Ephraim, or the House of Israel. Why the House of Israel. Because it was a mixture of many tribes. The Southern Kingdom, was referred to as Judah or Judea, because the majority were of the tribe of Judah with some of the remaining tribes. So, the names are not names of the land, but rather reflective of the tribes or mix of tribes in each piece of land.       

 

So, of the uses of Israel you listed, only 2 are actually scriptural. Jacob being renamed Israel, and the symbolic reference to Jesus/Yeshua.  

[Qnts2]

Israel is another thing...

 

...the house of salvation.

 

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (NKJV)

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

32 “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.

33 “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

34 “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

 

One of the clearest portrayals of the Gospel in the Old Testament / Tanakh is right here. And there is no mention of gentiles. Because there is no such thing as a gentile believer. It's an oxymoron. One is either born Jewish or gentile. But when faith comes there is the new man / person.

 

 

In the OT, Israel is a nation, a people group. Egypt is a nation, a people group.

 

The Hebrew word for nation is Goy. There really is not word for a people group which is not the children of Israel. So, when the OT in Hebrew is referring to people groups which is not Israel (Plural for Goy is Goyim), that must be determined by  context. Such as the goy of Israel was come against by diverse goyim. Clearly, diverse goyim are people groups other then the people of Israel.

 

Gentile is the English word referring to people groups, or people who are not Jewish/children of Israel. So a Gentile is simply someone who is not Jewish.  

 

Now, the question comes, is there something wrong with being not Jewish/Gentile. One answer would be no, God created all people in His image, and God created a lot more Gentiles then Jews so God must like Gentiles. But a more serious answer would be to look at prophesy in the OT.

 

First, a call for Gentiles to praise the Lord.

 

Psalm 117:1 Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles! Laud Him, all you peoples!

 

Isaiah 11:10

“And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious.”

 

Isaiah 42:6

“I, the Lord, have called You in righteousness, And will hold Your hand; I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the Gentiles,

 

Isaiah 49:6

Indeed He says, ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

 

So, a single verse speaking about the House of Israel and the House of Judah does not mean the Messiah would bypass the Gentiles. There are multiple verses prophesying that the Gentiles would receive salvation from the Messiah and would come to Him. In fact, there are more verses in the OT prophesying this and these are the verses which the Apostles looked at when determining what to do with the Gentiles who were coming to Jesus/Yeshua. That this was not unexpected but instead was prophesied. So, rather then have the Gentiles convert/be physically ritually circumcised, they realized God fully accepted Gentiles, equally with the Jewish people from OT prophesy.   

 

Edited June 11, 2013 by Qnts2

[Guest shiloh357]

Sorry JohnDB, but that is incorrect theology and a misunderstanding of the Scriptures presented.

 

 

First of all, "spiritual Jew" to reference a believing Gentile is a Gentile concept.  The Bible NEVER spiritualizes the word "Jew" or "Israel" to refer to Gentile believers.  The NT uses the word "Israel" 71 times.  It uses the word "Jew" 22 times and in both cases, these words only ever refer to physical Jews and the natural descendents of Jacob.  The church is never called "Israel" nor are Gentile believers EVER called Jews.

 

One of the clearest portrayals of the Gospel in the Old Testament / Tanakh is right here. And there is no mention of gentiles. Because there is no such thing as a gentile believer. It's an oxymoron. One is either born Jewish or gentile. But when faith comes there is the new man / person.

 

 

This is not true. In the olive tree metaphor, Paul clearly makes a distinction between the wild and natural branches and that distinction runs through the entire eleventh chapter of Romans. 

 

When Paul uses the term "one new man" he is speaking in corproate terms.  You are referencing Eph. 2:15,  Paul was talking about the dividing wall that separated the court of the Gentiles from the rest of the temple complex.  Paul was speaking of the wall that restricted the Gentiles from access to the inner court where only Jews were allowed.  That wall has been eliminated in Christ giving Gentiles free access to the grace of God.   He is talking about reconciling Jews and Gentiles into one body.   You don't become the "one new man" when you get saved.  That concept completely misses the point Paul was trying to make.

 

"all Israel" "complete Israel" "ultimate Israel" "Spirit Israel" is the Church... which Gentile born believers reject from antisemitism in their hearts and Jewish born people (believing or unbelieving) reject from pride in their hearts. 

 

Spiritual Israel is a concept that was born out of anti-Semitism.  It was a concept meant to make the Gentile believers "the new Israel."  The Bible never calls the church anything but the church.  "Israel" and "The Church" are radically separate concepts in the New Testament. 

[JohnD]

Shiloh...

 

Spirit Israel is a concept Paul defines in the New Testament, but it is applied in the Old Testament.

 

Romans 2:28-29 (NKJV)
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

 

Deuteronomy 10:16 (NKJV)
16 “Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer.

 

Deuteronomy 30:6 (NKJV)
6 “And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

 

Jeremiah 4:4 (NKJV)
4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, And take away the foreskins of your hearts, You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Lest My fury come forth like fire, And burn so that no one can quench it, Because of the evil of your doings.”

 

Jeremiah 9:26 (NKJV)
26 “Egypt, Judah, Edom, the people of Ammon, Moab, and all who are in the farthest corners, who dwell in the wilderness. For all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

 

Romans 9:6 (NKJV)
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

 

How can you say this is antisemitism?

[nebula]

Shiloh...

 

Spirit Israel is a concept Paul defines in the New Testament, but it is applied in the Old Testament.

 

Romans 2:28-29 (NKJV)

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;

29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

If you read these verses in context, you will see that Paul is speaking to Jews when he says this:

17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. . . .

24 For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," as it is written. 25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Thus, you cannot claim a Gentile is a "spiritual Jew" based on this passage.

 

Deuteronomy 10:16 (NKJV)

16 “Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer.

 This was written to Israelites (Jews).

 

 

Deuteronomy 30:6 (NKJV)

6 “And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.

 

This was written to Israelites (Jews).

 

Jeremiah 4:4 (NKJV)

4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, And take away the foreskins of your hearts, You men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem, Lest My fury come forth like fire, And burn so that no one can quench it, Because of the evil of your doings.”

 This was written to Israelites (Jews).

 

 

Jeremiah 9:26 (NKJV)

26 “Egypt, Judah, Edom, the people of Ammon, Moab, and all who are in the farthest corners, who dwell in the wilderness. For all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

 

OK, so not all Israel are Israel, but that still does not make Gentiles "Israel." The passage does not say Egypt, Edom, Ammon, and Moab are circumcised in the heart.

 

 

Romans 9:6 (NKJV)

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,

 Right, but that still does not make Gentiles "Israel."

 

"They are not all Israel" means that there are those of Israel who are "spiritual Israel."

 

[JohnD]

I made the point to show God is weaning people from the physical to the spiritual and that it indeed was aimed at the physical Jews and as far back as the second giving of the law chapter 10 verse 16.

 

Thank you for making my point!!!