Mystery Babylon - could it be Mecca / Dubai?

[BlindSeeker]

The real question should be "Who is the 8th" that goes into perdition. The "seven mountains," not hills, are empires upon which seven kings have sat. They are represented by the seven heads on the beast to reveal the mystery of the history of the beast "which was, is not, yet is." The beast itself with all its heads is the 8th and is the whole focus of Revelation 13-18. 

 

“I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.”

 

One of the main clues the angel told the apostle John is one that many seem to overlook. The angel told John, “The beast that you saw was, and is not; and [yet] shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition.” In another place the angel repeats it this way, “the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

 

Most people skip this clue and simply go to the part about the “seven mountains” where many are tempted to identify them as the seven “hills” of Rome in an effort to apply these verses to the Roman Catholic Church. My main question to those interpreting it that way is when did the Catholic Church cease to exist (and not just simply floundered under political oppression) and then revive? The phrase “was, and is not, and yet is,” irrefutably indicates something existed and then ceased to exist, and then came into being again.

 

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. 10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 

The angels plainly say to John, “here is the mind which hath wisdom,” or perhaps, “here is wisdom for the mind.” Regardless, the angel is committing unto John another clue to pass on to those who would seek. Remember, “The seven heads are seven mountains . . . there are seven kings, five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come.” What we can see woven in this phrase is exactly what we see in 17:8. The past, the present (or the duration of time between a past event and a future event), and the future.

 

The beast clearly has a past and a future and according to scripture also has an unknown time of “is not” in between . . .  and since the beast has seven heads that represent the seven mountains . . . and since there are seven kings, five of which “are fallen,” we can then confidently say that out of the “seven heads/seven mountains,” that five of the mountains/heads are also “fallen” as well. What does that simply mean? Five of the beast’s heads represent five mountains and five kings(doms) that were in John’s and Israel’s then PAST.

 

Therefore we must apply this to the time frame of the PRESENT back in the Apostle John’s time, (the time of the angelic discourse). If one were to of asked John back then if there was a king and nation oppressing Israel, he would have definitively answer, “Yes, Caesar of Rome.”

 

Seven Mountains

 

Let’s look at what is prophetically meant by the word “mountain” in scripture. Here are some references to mountains in scripture to which we can look and compare to gain understanding -

 

Jeremiah 51: 24 And I will render unto Babylon and to all the inhabitants of Chaldea all their evil that they have done in Zion in your sight, saith the LORD. 25 Behold, I am against thee, O destroying mountain, saith the LORD, which destroyest all the earth: and I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and roll thee down from the rocks, and will make thee a burnt mountain. 

 

Zechariah 4: 7 Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it. 

 

Da 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 

 

Da 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

 

Am 4:1 Hear this word, ye kine of Bashan, that are in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink.

 

Am 6:1 Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria, which are named chief of the nations, to whom the house of Israel came!

 

So who are the “seven mountains?” We can know with certainty four of them from the book of Daniel. –

 

1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters. 

2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man’s heart was given to it. [babylonian Empire]

5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. [Mede/Persia Empire]

6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. [Greek Empire] 

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. [Roman Empire]

 

We know from Revelation 17:9 that the sixth head was the one existing at the time John, which would be Rome. We also see above the three before Rome; which would be represented by heads numbers five, four and three. But since there are seven heads and we've only identified four thus far, we need to identify the other three heads, two before Babylon and one after Rome. However, the key to understanding the seven headed beast is to remember the beast correlates with Israel.

 

The first head is easy since Israel as a nation was birth when Moses led them out of slavery in Egypt. It was in Egypt that the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, “increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them,” so much so that the Egyptians began to fear them.

 

Exodus 1:8 Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.

9 And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we:

10 Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land.

11 Therefore they did set over them taskmasters to afflict them with their burdens. And they built for Pharaoh treasure cities, Pithom and Raamses.

12 But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were grieved because of the children of Israel. 

13 And the Egyptians made the children of Israel to serve with rigour:

14 And they made their lives bitter with hard bondage, in morter, and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field: all their service, wherein they made them serve, was with rigour.

 

Egypt is therefore represented by the first head of the beast. But who is the second? The scripture reveals to us that before the Babylonian captivity the nation of Israel divided into two because Rehoboam had refused to eased the burden on the ten northern tribes. (See I King 12:2-20)

 

I Kings 12:2 And it came to pass, when Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who was yet in Egypt, heard of it, (for he was fled from the presence of king Solomon, and Jeroboam dwelt in Egypt;)

3 That they sent and called him. And Jeroboam and all the congregation of Israel came, and spake unto Rehoboam, saying,

4 Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore make thou the grievous service of thy father, and his heavy yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee.

5 And he said unto them, Depart yet for three days, then come again to me. And the people departed.

6 And king Rehoboam consulted with the old men, that stood before Solomon his father while he yet lived, and said, How do ye advise that I may answer this people?

7 And they spake unto him, saying, If thou wilt be a servant unto this people this day, and wilt serve them, and answer them, and speak good words to them, then they will be thy servants for ever.

8 But he forsook the counsel of the old men, which they had given him, and consulted with the young men that were grown up with him, and which stood before him:

9 And he said unto them, What counsel give ye that we may answer this people, who have spoken to me, saying, Make the yoke which thy father did put upon us lighter?

10 And the young men that were grown up with him spake unto him, saying, Thus shalt thou speak unto this people that spake unto thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it lighter unto us; thus shalt thou say unto them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father’s loins.

11 And now whereas my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke: my father hath chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

12 So Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam the third day, as the king had appointed, saying, Come to me again the third day.

13 And the king answered the people roughly, and forsook the old men’s counsel that they gave him; 

14 And spake to them after the counsel of the young men, saying, My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions.

15 Wherefore the king hearkened not unto the people; for the cause was from the LORD, that he might perform his saying, which the LORD spake by Ahijah the Shilonite unto Jeroboam the son of Nebat.

16 So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying, What portion have we in David? neither have we inheritance in the son of Jesse: to your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David. So Israel departed unto their tents.

17 But as for the children of Israel which dwelt in the cities of Judah, Rehoboam reigned over them.

18 Then king Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was over the tribute; and all Israel stoned him with stones, that he died. Therefore king Rehoboam made speed to get him up to his chariot, to flee to Jerusalem. 

19 So Israel rebelled against the house of David unto this day. 

20 And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only.

 

Because Israel was now being divided with two separate kings, Jeroboam was afraid the hearts of the people would return toward Jerusalem and he would lose his control of them.

 

25 Then Jeroboam built Shechem in mount Ephraim, and dwelt therein; and went out from thence, and built Penuel.

26 And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now shall the kingdom return to the house of David:

27 If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah.

28 Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.

30 And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.

31 And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi.

32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made.

33 So he offered upon the altar which he had made in Bethel the fifteenth day of the eighth month, even in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and ordained a feast unto the children of Israel: and he offered upon the altar, and burnt incense.

 

Because of this idolatry and their refusal to repent, God raised up Assyria to punish the ten northern tribes of Israel.

 

II Kings 17:18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only.

23 Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day.

 

Therefore Assyria is represented by the second head of the beast. Let’s take a fresh look at the present order of those heads representing the succession of beasts which we have clarified. First we have the five that are fallen at the time of the Apostle John’s vision -

 

1. Egypt

2. Assyria

3. Babylon

4. Mede/Persia

5. Greece

 

Then we have the mountain which the angel said “one is” to John  which would be the sixth head, Rome. This sixth head is the fourth beast which Daniel said “shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.” That is in fact what Rome did to Israel in 70 A.D. at which time Jerusalem was destroyed according to the prediction of our Lord and it was never again in the sole possession of the Jews until after the conclusion of World War II.

 

But who had possession of the land once Israel ceased? Perhaps more importantly, who had gain possession of it prior to Israel’s rebirth in 1948? The British Empire had it. It was once boastfully said that “The sun never sets on the British Empire.” Having conquered so much, all around the world there were subdued territories subjugated to the British Empire and it was in 1948 that Israel was “born again” on land that was then considered part of the British Empire. Thus we can see how Israel “was, is not, and yet is” today. We would do well here to remember it was partly because of England that America sought to get involved in World War II. Plus, and that it was World War II that brought the sudden decline of the British Empire and gave America its occasion to rise to global supremacy.

 

So if we look at the whole list of those nations or empires which have had a direct relationship with Israel, either by taking her into captivity or having dominion over them and their land, it would be as follows:

 

1. Egypt

2. Assyria

3. Babylon

4. Mede/Persia

5. Greece

6. Rome

 

(Israel was not - therefore the beast was not)

 

7. England

 

But look now what the scriptures says:

 

Rev. 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

 

Now, “the eighth” is either (1) a direct branch or decent from the seventh, or (2) it is a mixture of the seven being an end time conglomeration of multitudes, languages, nations and tongues, as a nation existing as an international melting pot, a land made up of immigrants. Either way, America alone comfortably wears this Cinderella slipper.

 

For more, see here 

[Montana Marv]

And yet Rev 17:11 - the beast who once was, and now is not, is an 8th king.  He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

 

This could refer to Satan.  Ezk 28:11-19  For he once was a guardian cherub, and now he is not a guardian cherub, he was thrown to earth, he lost his place in the heavenly realm.  (Satan is the only one who could belong to the other seven),  Yet he will come to a horrible end and will be no more. Ezk 28:19.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[other one]

And yet Rev 17:11 - the beast who once was, and now is not, is an 8th king.  He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

 

This could refer to Satan.  Ezk 28:11-19  For he once was a guardian cherub, and now he is not a guardian cherub, he was thrown to earth, he lost his place in the heavenly realm.  (Satan is the only one who could belong to the other seven),  Yet he will come to a horrible end and will be no more. Ezk 28:19.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

I don't think Satan is in the abyss....   where the beast comes out of.

[Montana Marv]

 

And yet Rev 17:11 - the beast who once was, and now is not, is an 8th king.  He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

 

This could refer to Satan.  Ezk 28:11-19  For he once was a guardian cherub, and now he is not a guardian cherub, he was thrown to earth, he lost his place in the heavenly realm.  (Satan is the only one who could belong to the other seven),  Yet he will come to a horrible end and will be no more. Ezk 28:19.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

I don't think Satan is in the abyss....   where the beast comes out of.

 

 other one

 

But Satan will be in the Abyss for 1000 years, yet shortly after he is released he is destroyed.  For whom do all the fallen angels follow.

 

If one reads Apollyon means destroyer.  The thief in John 10:10 - The thief comes only to steal, kill and destroy.  Isa 14:16b,17 - Is this the man who shook earth and made kingdoms tremble, the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew cities and would not let his captives go home.  It is Satan who destroys peoples lives.  He is the destroyer.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[other one]

 

 

And yet Rev 17:11 - the beast who once was, and now is not, is an 8th king.  He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

 

This could refer to Satan.  Ezk 28:11-19  For he once was a guardian cherub, and now he is not a guardian cherub, he was thrown to earth, he lost his place in the heavenly realm.  (Satan is the only one who could belong to the other seven),  Yet he will come to a horrible end and will be no more. Ezk 28:19.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

I don't think Satan is in the abyss....   where the beast comes out of.

 

 other one

 

But Satan will be in the Abyss for 1000 years, yet shortly after he is released he is destroyed.  For whom do all the fallen angels follow.

 

If one reads Apollyon means destroyer.  The thief in John 10:10 - The thief comes only to steal, kill and destroy.  Isa 14:16b,17 - Is this the man who shook earth and made kingdoms tremble, the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew cities and would not let his captives go home.  It is Satan who destroys peoples lives.  He is the destroyer.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

you are the only person I've known that considers that to be after the 1000 years.

[BlindSeeker]

And yet Rev 17:11 - the beast who once was, and now is not, is an 8th king.  He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

 

This could refer to Satan.  Ezk 28:11-19  For he once was a guardian cherub, and now he is not a guardian cherub, he was thrown to earth, he lost his place in the heavenly realm.  (Satan is the only one who could belong to the other seven),  Yet he will come to a horrible end and will be no more. Ezk 28:19.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

You are changing the nature of the beasts (no pun intended). You cannot jump from a succession of earthly empires to Satan without abandoning basic principles of sound reasoning. That is why we are given the history, so when the age has come for these things to be fulfilled the church can look clearly and see what the angel was saying unto John.

.

[Montana Marv]

 

And yet Rev 17:11 - the beast who once was, and now is not, is an 8th king.  He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

 

This could refer to Satan.  Ezk 28:11-19  For he once was a guardian cherub, and now he is not a guardian cherub, he was thrown to earth, he lost his place in the heavenly realm.  (Satan is the only one who could belong to the other seven),  Yet he will come to a horrible end and will be no more. Ezk 28:19.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

You are changing the nature of the beasts (no pun intended). You cannot jump from a succession of earthly empires to Satan without abandoning basic principles of sound reasoning. That is why we are given the history, so when the age has come for these things to be fulfilled the church can look clearly and see what the angel was saying unto John.

.

 

 

Then how did America (your eighth kingdom) have dealings with the previous seven kings/ kingdoms.  It didn't, it did not exist, therefore your succession is wrong or you are dealing with something other than what the text has intended.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[BlindSeeker]

Clearly you did not read my initial post. America not only "belongs" to the succession, America is the the end of the succession.

[Montana Marv]

Clearly you did not read my initial post. America not only "belongs" to the succession, America is the the end of the succession.

 

Oh yes I read your post.  The Abyss is for fallen angels.  This eighth king comes up out of the Abyss, and goes to his destruction. Rev 17:8.  So my view is that this 8th king is angelic.  You need to determine when Satan came on the scene near the end of the 70th week.  Rev 16:13.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[BlindSeeker]

 

Clearly you did not read my initial post. America not only "belongs" to the succession, America is the the end of the succession.

 

Oh yes I read your post.  The Abyss is for fallen angels.  This eighth king comes up out of the Abyss, and goes to his destruction. Rev 17:8.  So my view is that this 8th king is angelic.  You need to determine when Satan came on the scene near the end of the 70th week.  Rev 16:13.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Satan has always been on the scene.

Let's see if you can put the pieces together with these four scriptures, try and keep track of the individual players and the power behind them.

 

Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking Him up into an high mountain, showed unto Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.  6 And the devil said unto Him, "All this power will I give you, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it."

 

Re 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven [7] crowns upon his heads.

 

Re 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten [10] crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

 

Re 17:8 The beast that thou saw, was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

 

Two seven headed, ten horn creatures. Both seen by John. The first manipulating all the kingdoms that have succeed each other through time, and the later representing the succession of those which have had direct affiliation with Israel from its birth in Egypt up to the present day with its rebirth taking place on conquered soil under England control.

 

So Marv, which one of these two beast clearly represents Satan, for they are clearly two separate beasts?

You surely wouldn't say that "The dragon gave Satan his power, and his seat, and great authority," for that wouldn't make any sense now . . .  would it?