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Our Body is our Soul and our Soul is our Body.


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1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

   Shalom, HAZARD.

Don't give me some theological stance; book, chapter and verse, please!

Jesus own words, I believe Jesus.

Revelation 1: 18, I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 

The keys of Rev. 1:18 are a symbol of power and jurisdiction. Compare on Matthew 16:19; Luke 11:52

Edited by HAZARD
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4 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Jesus own words, I believe Jesus.

Revelation 1: 18, I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 

Shalom, HAZARD.

Look, His own resurrection doesn't constitute His "conquering death!"

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ (the Messiah) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (in the Messiah) shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ (the Messiah) the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's (those who are the Messiah's) at his coming. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he (the Messiah) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he (the Messiah) shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he (the Messiah) must reign, till he (God) hath put all enemies under his (the Messiah's) feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he (God) hath put all things under his (the Messiah's) feet. But when he (God) saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest (revealed; obvious) that he (God) is excepted, which did put all things under him (the Messiah). 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (the Messiah), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God) that put all things under him (the Messiah), that God may be all in all.

You're just reading into Revelation 1:18 more than is written there! Don't feel too badly; many do the same thing with other passages of the Bible.

Edited by Retrobyter
hopefully, to bring some comfort
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4 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, HAZARD.

Look, His own resurrection doesn't constitute His "conquering death!"

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ (the Messiah) risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ (in the Messiah) shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ (the Messiah) the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's (those who are the Messiah's) at his coming. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he (the Messiah) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he (the Messiah) shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he (the Messiah) must reign, till he (God) hath put all enemies under his (the Messiah's) feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he (God) hath put all things under his (the Messiah's) feet. But when he (God) saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest (revealed; obvious) that he (God) is excepted, which did put all things under him (the Messiah). 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (the Messiah), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God) that put all things under him (the Messiah), that God may be all in all.

You're just reading into Revelation 1:18 more than is written there!

 

And you are missing exactly what is written there. When we die our bodies go to the grave awaiting the resurrection of the body, while our soul goes to Heaven, something that was not possible until Christs death and resurrection. When He died and went to  Paradise
In Luke 16:19-31; 23:43, we have pictured total comfort and water in this prison because the rich man saw Lazarus afar off in comfort and bliss and asked him to dip his finger in water and cool his tongue (Luke 16:19-31).
This was the abode of the righteous souls from Adam after dying and leaving their bodies, being held captive by the devil against their wills till Christ's death and resurrection (Heb. 2:14-15; Eph. 4:7-11).Before Jesus Christ conqured the power of death and Hell, the devil had these powers. (Col. 2:14-17; Heb. 2:14-15; Rev. 1:18).
It was into this prison the repentant thief went with Christ the day they both died (Luke 23:43). This prison is located in the heart of the Earth as is clear from (Matt. 12:40 and Eph. 4:7-11).

Jesus having conqured Hell and death and the grave during His crucifiction and during the three days He was in the underworld, He captured all the righteous souls that were in Paradise and took them to Heaven when He ascended on high (Eph. 4:7-11).

Jesus now has the keys to Hell and death. Revelation 1:18, I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 

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6 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

 

And you are missing exactly what is written there. When we die our bodies go to the grave awaiting the resurrection of the body, while our soul goes to Heaven, something that was not possible until Christs death and resurrection. When He died and went to  Paradise
In Luke 16:19-31; 23:43, we have pictured total comfort and water in this prison because the rich man saw Lazarus afar off in comfort and bliss and asked him to dip his finger in water and cool his tongue (Luke 16:19-31).
This was the abode of the righteous souls from Adam after dying and leaving their bodies, being held captive by the devil against their wills till Christ's death and resurrection (Heb. 2:14-15; Eph. 4:7-11).Before Jesus Christ conqured the power of death and Hell, the devil had these powers. (Col. 2:14-17; Heb. 2:14-15; Rev. 1:18).
It was into this prison the repentant thief went with Christ the day they both died (Luke 23:43). This prison is located in the heart of the Earth as is clear from (Matt. 12:40 and Eph. 4:7-11).

Jesus having conqured Hell and death and the grave during His crucifixion and during the three days He was in the underworld, He captured all the righteous souls that were in Paradise and took them to Heaven when He ascended on high (Eph. 4:7-11).

Jesus now has the keys to Hell and death. Revelation 1:18, I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 

Shalom, HAZARD.

And around and around we go, again! This is how we started! I could say just read through my arguments again, but I doubt that you read them the first time. So, I'll just say that you need to read them FOR THE FIRST TIME more carefully!

Anyway, I'm not missing anything, but you are. There is NOTHING in ANY of these verses that say that "our soul goes to Heaven!" Again, you don't know what "paradise" means, and you are WRONG to think that He had to be "in the underworld!" This is all from the Greek mythology!!!

I don't believe everything that Randy Alcorn says in his books, but you REALLY need to read the Appendix A in his book simply entitled "Heaven." It's entitled "Christoplatonism's False Assumptions."

Anyway, I've got no more time tonight.

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1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, HAZARD.

And around and around we go, again! This is how we started! I could say just read through my arguments again, but I doubt that you read them the first time. So, I'll just say that you need to read them FOR THE FIRST TIME more carefully!

Anyway, I'm not missing anything, but you are. There is NOTHING in ANY of these verses that say that "our soul goes to Heaven!" Again, you don't know what "paradise" means, and you are WRONG to think that He had to be "in the underworld!" This is all from the Greek mythology!!!

I don't believe everything that Randy Alcorn says in his books, but you REALLY need to read the Appendix A in his book simply entitled "Heaven." It's entitled "Christoplatonism's False Assumptions."

Anyway, I've got no more time tonight.

Pardon me, I did read your post and don't agree with your twisting Scripture to suite your pet theory on the subject,. Our souls go to either heaven or hell when we die.

You remind me of a blind outback shearer who was shearing a pig. Lots of squeal but little wool. LOL . . . 

Edited by HAZARD
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15 hours ago, HAZARD said:

Pardon me, I did read your post and don't agree with your twisting Scripture to suit your pet theory on the subject,. Our souls go to either heaven or hell when we die.

You remind me of a blind outback shearer who was shearing a pig. Lots of squeal but little wool. LOL . . . 

Shalom, HAZARD.

Excuse me, but I've NEVER "twisted Scripture!" And, it's not a "pet theory"; it's what makes sense when you take everything into consideration. Our "SOULS" - our "AIR-BREATHING CREATURES" - CEASE TO EXIST when we die, for - guess what - we don't breathe air when we're DEAD! Therefore, they neither "go to heaven" nor "go to hell" when we die. Instead, we "go to the grave (or tomb or crematory)" when we die! We await the RESURRECTION!!!

Romans 8:18-23 (KJV)

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory (brightness) which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest (down payment) expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation (revealing) of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption (decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption (buying back) of our body.

Again, look CAREFULLY at Genesis 2:7:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

In Hebrew, this is ...

B'reeshiyt 2:7 (JPS Tanakh)

7 Vayiytser YHWH Elohiym et haa'Aadaam `aafaar min haa'adaamaah vayyipah b'apaahyow nishmat chayiym vayhiy haa'Aadaam lnefesh chayyaah:

7 Vayiytser = 7 And-formed
YHWH =ADONAI, the LORD
Elohiym = God
et = (next word is the direct object)
haa'Aadaam = the-Red-[Man] (m.); "Adam"
`aafaar = of-dust
min = from
haa'adaamaah = the-red-[ground] (f.)
vayyipah = and-puffed
b'apaahyow = in/into-his-nostrils
nishmat = a-puff
chayiym = of-living-[creatures]
vayhiy = and-became
haa'Aadaam = the-Red-[Man]; "Adam"
lnefesh = to-an-air-breathing-creature
chayyaah: = living:

And, look again at the definition and origin of "nefesh":

5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh). From naafash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naafash (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air)
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

No twisting of Scripture here. If anything, it's an UNTWISTING of a common, Hebrew word!

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48 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, HAZARD.

Excuse me, but I've NEVER "twisted Scripture!" And, it's not a "pet theory"; it's what makes sense when you take everything into consideration. Our "SOULS" - our "AIR-BREATHING CREATURES" - CEASE TO EXIST when we die, for - guess what - we don't breathe air when we're DEAD! Therefore, they neither "go to heaven" nor "go to hell" when we die. Instead, we "go to the grave (or tomb or crematory)" when we die! We await the RESURRECTION!!!

No twisting of Scripture here. If anything, it's an UNTWISTING of a common, Hebrew word!

Our dead bodies go to the grave when we die. Our inner man, our soul goes either to Heaven or Hell. OUR SOULS NEVER DIE!

What does resurrection of the body mean? It means to come back to life again. We do not say “resurrection of the soul,” for the soul does not die. The soul is immortal; only the body dies. On the last day, our body will come back to life; it will be reunited to our soul, which gives our body life.

Jesus having conqured Hell and death and the grave during His crucifiction and during the three days He was in the underworld, He captured all the righteous souls that were in Paradise and took them to Heaven when He ascended on high (Eph. 4:7-11). Jesus now has the keys to Hell and death (Rev. 1:18). Rightious souls who die now no longer go here. They go straight to Heaven when they die.

You saying Jesus never took any souls who were in Paradise with Him to Heaven when He ascended on high? 

Ephesians 4:8-9;

    8, Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 
    9, (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 

 

You remind me of a blind outback shearer who was shearing a pig. He got Lots of squeal but little wool. . . .  LOL.

 

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22 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

Our dead bodies go to the grave when we die. Our inner man, our soul goes either to Heaven or Hell. OUR SOULS NEVER DIE!

What does resurrection of the body mean? It means to come back to life again. We do not say “resurrection of the soul,” for the soul does not die. The soul is immortal; only the body dies. On the last day, our body will come back to life; it will be reunited to our soul, which gives our body life.

Jesus having conqured Hell and death and the grave during His crucifiction and during the three days He was in the underworld, He captured all the righteous souls that were in Paradise and took them to Heaven when He ascended on high (Eph. 4:7-11). Jesus now has the keys to Hell and death (Rev. 1:18). Rightious souls who die now no longer go here. They go straight to Heaven when they die.

You saying Jesus never took any souls who were in Paradise with Him to Heaven when He ascended on high? 

Ephesians 4:8-9;

    8, Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 
    9, (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 

 

You remind me of a blind outback shearer who was shearing a pig. He got Lots of squeal but little wool. . . .  LOL.

 

Shalom, HAZARD.

"Our souls never die" is false. "Our souls will live forever" in one place or another is accurate ONLY because of what Yeshua` said:

John 5:25-29 (KJV) 

25 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

We don't "have bodies"; we ARE bodies!

Your explanation of things is PURE, THEOLOGICAL, FICTITIOUS RHETORIC!!! It's NOT biblical nor is it truth! Our body is NOT "reunited with our soul!" THAT'S the fiction! Instead, one as a body in the grave will be resurrected and BECOME a soul - an air-breather - once again!

And, your understanding of Ephesians 4:8-9 is WRONG!!! Look up the quotation from the Old Testament scriptures and read it in context! Your theological stance here is pure fiction!

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2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, HAZARD.

"Our souls never die" is false. "Our souls will live forever" in one place or another is accurate ONLY because of what Yeshua` said:

You say our souls never die is false, yet you add, our souls will live forever on one place or another ???? Are you for real??

And, you never answered my question. Did Jesus take the souls who were in Paradise with Him to Heaven when He ascended on high? 

Here;

Ephesians 4:8-9;

    8, Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 
    9, (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 

You remind me of a blind outback shearer who was shearing a pig. He got Lots of squeal but little wool. . . .  LOL.

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4 hours ago, HAZARD said:

You say our souls never die is false, yet you add, our souls will live forever in one place or another ???? Are you for real??

And, you never answered my question. Did Jesus take the souls who were in Paradise with Him to Heaven when He ascended on high? 

Here;

Ephesians 4:8-9;

    8, Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 
    9, (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 

You remind me of a blind outback shearer who was shearing a pig. He got Lots of squeal but little wool. . . .  LOL.

Shalom, HAZARD.

Yep, for real. Look, every time you see the word "soul" in a statement, just substitute "air-breathing creature" for that word. Our "air-breathing creatures" DO die! However, because of the resurrections, whether one has done good or bad, he will be raised to life and shall live forever either as an "air-breathing creature" in paradise (the New Earth with the New Jerusalem) or as an "air-breathing creature" thrown into the Lake of Fire.

You asked, "Did Jesus take the souls who were in Paradise with Him to Heaven when He ascended on high?" The answer is simply, "No." First of all, again, one should substitute "air-breathing creatures" for "souls." That makes your question, "Did Jesus take the air-breathing creatures who were in Paradise with Him to Heaven when He ascended on high?" The answer to this is a question: WHAT "air-breathing creatures?" 

Second, you're assuming that paradise was in the center of the earth. Now, I know this has been taught a LONG time, but that doesn't make it so! "Paradise" means "a park," specifically "a park of trees!"

NT:3857 paradeisos (par-ad-i'-sos). Of Oriental origin (compare pardeec); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise") -- paradise.

This is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew word pardeec:

OT:6508 pardeec (par-dace'). Of foreign origin; a park
-- forest, orchard.

And, lest we forget, Gan-Eden (the Garden of Eden) is described in just that way:

Genesis 2:8-9 (KJV)

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

So, the answer to the second part is also a question: WHAT "park in the center of the earth?"

Third, you're pulling Ephesians 4:8-9 out of context ... TWICE ... all to make the excuse that it's talking about Yeshua` leading captivity captive to some mythical place called "Heaven!"

Gotta go for now; I'll write more later.

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