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Our Body is our Soul and our Soul is our Body.

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10 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, HAZARD.

I'll bother if I like! I believe that YOU are the one who's "way off base." Would you please show me FROM THE BIBLE that "OUR SOULS NEVER DIE"? SHOW ME that "the soul is immortal!" You won't find it, because it's not there. 

 Matthew 10: 28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Ecclesiastes 12:7, Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Luke 12:20, "But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?'

Revelation 20:4, Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

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1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

 Matthew 10: 28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Ecclesiastes 12:7, Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Luke 12:20, "But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?'

Revelation 20:4, Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Shalom, HAZARD.

Okay, let's get the easy ones out of the way first:

Luke 12:20, "But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?'"

Just plug in the definition:

Luke 12:20, "But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your air-breather is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?'"

Revelation 20:4, Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Ditto:

Revelation 20:4, Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the air-breathers of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

This is, after all, the First Resurrection!

Ecclesiastes 12:7, Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Now, regarding Ecclesiastes 12:7, which doesn't use the word "nefesh" ("soul") but uses "ruwach" ("spirit") instead, we have to substitute "breath" instead:

Ecclesiastes 12:7, Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the breath will return to God who gave it.

Which is precisely what He gave to the first man when he was created.

Finally, Matthew 10:28: First, let's make sure we're using the right wording in translation by going back to the Greek. First the KJV, which has been one of the best translations for over 400 years. (Please note that I did NOT say that the KJV was PERFECT!)

Matthew 10:28 (KJV)

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Here's the same verse in the Greek:

Kata Maththaion 10:28 (UBS Greek New Testament)

28 Kai mee fobeisthe apo toon apoktennontoon to sooma, teen de psucheen mee dunamenoon apokteinai fobeisthe de mallon ton dunamenon kai psucheen kai sooma apolesai en ge-ennee.

So, one thing to note is that this verse doesn't use "hadees" for the English word "hell"; it uses "ge-enna" or as it is often written "gehenna."  This is the Greek transliteration of the Hebrew phrase "gei-Hinnom," which means "valley of-Hinnom."

A second thing is in the choice of words used for "kill" and "destroy." "Kill" is from the Greek word "apokteinoo":

615 apokteinoo (ap-ok-ti'-no). From apo and kteinoo (to slay); to kill outright; figuratively, to destroy
-- put to death, kill, slay.

Literally, it means to "kill off."

"Destroy" comes from the Greek word "apollumi":

622 apollumi (ap-pal-loo'-mee). From apo and the base of olethros; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively
-- destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

3639 olethros (ol'-eth-ros). From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment
-- destruction.

Literally, it means to "destroy off" or to "destroy away." It's like to "wipe out any memory of."

I'll let you figure out the rest, but this is talking about the JUDGMENT of the Messiah throughout the Millennium for the end of the "valley of Hinnom" is just outside of Jerusalem, where the kings of Israel used to set up their judgment seat. On the right hand side was the Golden Gate. On the left hand side facing Jerusalem was the trash heap where prisoners were executed.

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2 Cor. 5: 8, We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 

The phrase “absent from the body” is found in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 where Paul states that he is confident in his eternal destiny and longs for the day when he can be “absent from the body” and be present with the Lord he loves and serves. To be “absent” from one’s body simply means to die because, at death, the spirit is separated from the body and moves into its eternal abode—either heaven with the Lord or hell, separated from God for eternity.

Edited by HAZARD

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On 9/12/2019 at 4:51 PM, HAZARD said:

2 Cor. 5: 8, We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 

The phrase “absent from the body” is found in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 where Paul states that he is confident in his eternal destiny and longs for the day when he can be “absent from the body” and be present with the Lord he loves and serves. To be “absent” from one’s body simply means to die because, at death, the spirit is separated from the body and moves into its eternal abode—either heaven with the Lord or hell, separated from God for eternity.

Shalom, HAZARD.

Thank you for taking me to one of my favorite chapters in the Bible! This is the chapter that introduces us to the work of Yeshua` upon the cross.

I think you're not realizing that, when a person dies, the soul ceases to exist; that is, the AIR-BREATHING YOU succumbs to decay and death and is no longer AIR-BREATHING, and lies peacefully, motionless in the grave or tomb or at sea or as a pile of ash from the crematory. YOU won't awaken until the First Resurrection and when YOU do, the next thing YOU will know is "the presence of the Lord!"

Another passage of Scripture to which the believers at Korinth were already introduced is 1 Corinthians 15, which is about the Resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:35-49 (KJV)

35 But some man will say,

"How are the dead raised up?"

and

"with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men (Greek: sarx ... anthroopoon = "flesh/meat of-men"), another flesh of beasts (Greek: sarx kteenoon = "flesh/meat of-land-animals"), another of fishes (Greek: [sarx] ichthuoon = "[flesh/meat] of-sea-creatures"), and another of birds (Greek: sarx pteenoon = "flesh/meat of-birds"). 

40 There are also (Greek: kai = "and/also [there are]") celestial bodies (Greek: soomata epourania = "bodies above/upon-[the]-sky"), and bodies terrestrial (Greek: soomata epigeia = "bodies above/upon-[the]-ground"): but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another (Greek: alla hetera men hee toon epouranioon doxa, hetera de hee toon epigeioon = "but one truly [is] the radiance of-the [bodies]-above-the-sky, but one the [radiance] of-the [bodies]-upon-the-ground". 

41 There is one glory of the sun (Greek: allee doxa heeliou = "a-different radiance of-the-sun"),
and another glory of the moon (Greek: allee doxa seleenees = "a-different radiance of-the-moon"), 
and another glory of the stars (Greek: allee doxa asteeroon = "a-different radiance of-the-stars"):
for one star differeth from another star in glory (Greek: asteer gar asteros diaferei en doxee = "for a-star differs from-a-star in radiance").

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.

It is sown in corruption (Greek: en fthora = "in decay");
it is raised in incorruption (Greek: en aftharsia = "in indestructibility"): 
43 It is sown in dishonour (Greek: en atimia = "in mediocracy/unrecognized");
it is raised in glory (Greek: en doxa = "in radiance/fame"):
it is sown in weakness(Greek: en astheneia = "in weakness/frailty");
it is raised in power (Greek: en dunamei = "in strength/energy": 

44 It is sown a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon = "an-air-breathing body");
it is raised a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon = "an-air-blasting body"). 

There is a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon = "an air-breathing body"),
and there is a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon = "an air-blasting body"). 

45 And so it is written,

"The" first man, "Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen zoosan = "a living air-breather")." (Gen. 2:7);

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: pneuma zoo-opoioun = "a life-giving wind"). 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy (Greek: ek gees, choikos = "out-of [the]-earth dirt-like"), :
the second man is [the Lord] from heaven (Greek: ex ouranou = "out-of [the]-sky"). 
48 As is the earthy (Greek: ho choikos = "the dirt-like"),
such are they also that are earthy (Greek hoi choikoi = "the dirt-like" [plural]):
and as is the heavenly (Greek: ho epouranios = "the above-the-sky-like" [singular]),
such are they also that are heavenly (Greek: hoi epouranioi = "the above-the-sky-like" [plural]). 
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

A body is a group of organs; an organ is a group of specially designated cells, a cell is an organization of a group of chemicals controlled by DNA, and those chemicals are a group of molecules and atoms. In no matter which state we are in as bodies, to re-constitute the body entirely will take an act of CREATION! GOD PERFECTLY REMEMBERS US and SHALL RECREATE US JUST AS WE WERE before death!

THEN, will come our transformation from "SOULUAL" bodies to "SPIRITUAL" bodies: 

1 Corinthians 15:50-57 (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (never to decay again), and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption (never being able to decay again), and this mortal must put on immortality (never being able to die again). 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

"Death is swallowed up in victory." (Isaiah 25:8)

55 "O death, where is thy sting?
O grave, where is thy victory?"
(Hosea 13:14b) 

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, you may THINK that "soulual" is a made-up word, and I'll confess it is a made-up word to a degree, but that's what the GREEK looks like:

sooma psuchikon = "soulual" body, comes from "psuchee," translated "soul," and
sooma pneumatikon = "spiritual" body, comes from "pneuma," translated "spirit."

But, in the "spiritual body" sense, it is talking about "air-BLASTING" as opposed to merely "air-breathing."

Study this closely! You shall be blessed (made happy) if you do.

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27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, HAZARD.

Thank you for taking me to one of my favorite chapters in the Bible! This is the chapter that introduces us to the work of Yeshua` upon the cross.

I think you're not realizing that, when a person dies, the soul ceases to exist; that is, the AIR-BREATHING YOU succumbs to decay and death and is no longer AIR-BREATHING, and lies peacefully, motionless in the grave or tomb or at sea or as a pile of ash from the crematory. YOU won't awaken until the First Resurrection and when YOU do, the next thing YOU will know is "the presence of the Lord!"

Another passage of Scripture to which the believers at Korinth were already introduced is 1 Corinthians 15, which is about the Resurrection:

When we die, our bodies go to the grave and our souls go to Heaven if we are in Christ. These are the souls now in Heaven that with Christ to put down all sin and rebellion;

Jude 1:   14, And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS,

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9 minutes ago, HAZARD said:

When we die, our bodies go to the grave and our souls go to Heaven if we are in Christ. These are the souls now in Heaven that with Christ to put down all sin and rebellion;

Jude 1:   14, And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh WITH TEN THOUSANDS OF HIS SAINTS,

Shalom, HAZARD.

Or, so goes the theological rhetoric! Where does it say "our souls go to Heaven if we are in Christ"?

Regarding the book by Yhudah ("Jude," which in Greek, "Ioudas" would be pronounced "ee-oo-das'"), here's more of the passage:

Jude 11-16 (KJV)

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain (Greek: Ka-in pronounced "kah'-in"), and ran greedily after the error of Balaam (Greek: Bala-am pronouced "bal-ah-am'") for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core (Greek: Kore pronounced "kor-eh'"). 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying,

"Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." (A quote from the First Book of Chanokh [Enoch], a Jewish work of the 1st Century A.D.)

16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Of course, both Jude 14-15 and this "First Book of Chanokh" may be alluding to Deuteronomy 33:1-5:

Deuteronomy 33:1-5 (KJV)

1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said,

"The LORD came from (Mount) Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. 3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words."

4 Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob. 5 And he was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people and the tribes of Israel were gathered together.

However, if we accept that this phrase is about a future time (instead of when Mosheh ["Moses"] was leading the children of Israel from Mount Sinai), we're not told when or where He should "pick them up!"

You're suggesting that He shall pick them up from this mythical place called "Heaven" and bring them here to earth with Him. 

I believe that He shall pick them up on the Day of the First Resurrection from wherever they are currently buried, and they shall return to the Land of Israel with Him!

Definitions make a WORLD of difference!

"Soul," in both the Hebrew word "nefesh" or the Greek "psuchee," means "an air-breathing creature."

"Heaven," in both the Hebrew word "shaamayim" or the Greek word "ouranos," means "the sky."

There's another Greek word that Paul used (or the translator of Paul's works used) for things "above the sky," "epouranios." This word was used for the "sun, moon, and stars" in 1 Corinthians 15 above. This word is the adjective form of "ouranos" combined with the word "epi" which means "over, upon, or above." (The Hebrew uses the phrase "shaameey hashaamayim," or the "heavens of the heavens.")

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