Guest DRS81 Posted September 30, 2013 Share Posted September 30, 2013 Do you realize that God being omniscient doesn't mean that He is in the driver's seat in all things? But he knows who is going to heaven and hell before he creates people. Knowing and doing something about it are two different things. Not only does God continue to create babies, but he also created Lucifer knowing he would eventually fall. (Example: From God's perspective - I know that Bob Smith will get shot and die walking home from the drug store today, but even though I knew I didn't do anything about it. I created Bob Smith in his mothers womb 25 years ago, but before I created him I already knew he would die from a gunshot wound and go to hell. Why did I create him? Because I love him, even though he bled to death and went to hell. Bob smith was also married and had two children. Forgive me for jumping in here, but I tried to get you to consider what true pure love is and is not. The answer lies there. If God thought it was best to create just believers, there would be no choice in the matter and Jesus would of come for nothing. This is not His way of being with those whom He loves and whom love Him back. Read 1 Corinthians 13 and meditate on what it says. How do you see pure love from God in creating Bob Smith when God already knows his fate. I'm not seeing the love. Sorry man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted October 1, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Do you realize that God being omniscient doesn't mean that He is in the driver's seat in all things? But he knows who is going to heaven and hell before he creates people. Knowing and doing something about it are two different things. Not only does God continue to create babies, but he also created Lucifer knowing he would eventually fall. (Example: From God's perspective - I know that Bob Smith will get shot and die walking home from the drug store today, but even though I knew I didn't do anything about it. I created Bob Smith in his mothers womb 25 years ago, but before I created him I already knew he would die from a gunshot wound and go to hell. Why did I create him? Because I love him, even though he bled to death and went to hell. Bob smith was also married and had two children. What is the 'but' for? Are you negating the unfathomable love He has for all? Do you shuffle blame onto God? You walk a dangerous road, there. Who else do we know who blames God for all ills? Who is it that whispers arguments into the minds of men that seem reasonable---because they are crafted to appeal to man's flaky reason? Yep---Satan. God chases after people, because he doesn't want them to be condemned. He offers them salvation, just the same as He offers you and I the same salvation...and many opportunities, to boot. It is tragic when someone rejects Jesus, and He mourns that loss, but He offers them Jesus nonetheless...because He loves them beyond measure. The shame isn't something God should be wearing, Dave----it is a shame that is heaped on the one who rejects such a wonderfully free gift! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Do you shuffle blame onto God? No I don't shuffle blame anywhere. I'm just trying to understand God's ways of doing things. For example, take my dad for instance. My dad was a good father and raised me right and gave me a place to live and eat. My dad then grows old, dies and goes to hell. Was my dad's only purpose in life..fatherhood without God? God is creating all these people throughout time, giving them good lives..allowing them to live their atheist lives for 90 years, then they die and go to hell. What's the point of that??? It baffles me. It just does. This is where I'm at in my walk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 1, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 1, 2013 Do you realize that God being omniscient doesn't mean that He is in the driver's seat in all things? But he knows who is going to heaven and hell before he creates people. Knowing and doing something about it are two different things. Not only does God continue to create babies, but he also created Lucifer knowing he would eventually fall. (Example: From God's perspective - I know that Bob Smith will get shot and die walking home from the drug store today, but even though I knew I didn't do anything about it. I created Bob Smith in his mothers womb 25 years ago, but before I created him I already knew he would die from a gunshot wound and go to hell. Why did I create him? Because I love him, even though he bled to death and went to hell. Bob smith was also married and had two children. Forgive me for jumping in here, but I tried to get you to consider what true pure love is and is not. The answer lies there. If God thought it was best to create just believers, there would be no choice in the matter and Jesus would of come for nothing. This is not His way of being with those whom He loves and whom love Him back. Read 1 Corinthians 13 and meditate on what it says. How do you see pure love from God in creating Bob Smith when God already knows his fate. I'm not seeing the love. Sorry man. Yes, I know you can't. Bob Smith choose for himself. God did not force it upon him. Did you read and understand 1 Corinthians 13? Let's discuss verses 4-8a.Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails. So, what does scripture say about love? suffers long is kind does not envy does not parade itself is not puffed up does not behave rudely does not seek its own is not provoked thinks no evil does not rejoice in iniquity rejoices in the truth bears all things believes all things hopes all things endures all things never fails God's love is all this. He will endure the pain of being rejected because He will not seek His own will on man, but gave them the freedom to love Him. If God said "I will create only those who love me!", is He really loving His creation by forcing Himself on them? How would they know if they love God or not, since they had no choice in the matter. True love allows them to choose for themselves. You see, Bob had a lifetime to get to know God. Bob choose not to. Let me ask you this. Do you see God as an unloving God, or do you just not understand why He allows people to do something wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted October 1, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Do you shuffle blame onto God? No I don't shuffle blame anywhere. I'm just trying to understand God's ways of doing things. For example, take my dad for instance. My dad was a good father and raised me right and gave me a place to live and eat. My dad then grows old, dies and goes to hell. Was my dad's only purpose in life..fatherhood without God? God is creating all these people throughout time, giving them good lives..allowing them to live their atheist lives for 90 years, then they die and go to hell. What's the point of that??? It baffles me. It just does. This is where I'm at in my walk. God says His ways are not our ways. Instead of trying to pigeon-hole what God is all about, try simply believing what He says. The sorry answer to your question is that people that seem to be good people are not good, but are born sinners and are headed to damnation without Jesus Christ the Saviour and King. Your father's purpose that God had for him was never realized! God doesn't sit back and 'allow' people to deny Him! He is actively PURSUING them! People actively deny Him! The point of all that is that life is very precious. Life is a gift, and Jesus is the giver of eternal life! Without Him, one is destined to an eternity without Him. This may baffle you, but you may consider allowing this matter to spur you on to telling the lost about Jesus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 God's love is all this. He will endure the pain of being rejected because He will not seek His own will on man, but gave them the freedom to love Him. If God said "I will create only those who love me!", is He really loving His creation by forcing Himself on them? How would they know if they love God or not, since they had no choice in the matter. True love allows them to choose for themselves. You see, Bob had a lifetime to get to know God. Bob choose not to. Let me ask you this. Do you see God as an unloving God, or do you just not understand why He allows people to do something wrong? What does scripture say about creating all things, knowing all things, but allowing all things to come to pass. My debate is not that God doesn't force his will on people and that people have a choice. No, my debate is that if God already knows who is going to hell when he creates them in mothers womb then why create them. Why in the world would you create them if you know they will suffer in hell for eternity. Hell is hot and painful. (sigh) Why why why why!! I definitly see God as an all loving God who can only do good, but I just can't seem to get past the why. Why he creates unbelievers destined to hell. Again my debate is about God's omniscience. It's not that he allows people to do something wrong, but he ALREADY KNOWS they will not accept his salvation and will go to hell. He ALREADY KNOWS before he creates them. God's omniscience is a powerful thing!!! God doesn't sit back and 'allow' people to deny Him! He is actively PURSUING them! People actively deny Him! But wouldn't God still be allowing people to deny him since God knows their fate anyways, or maybe God needs to work harder. haha. For example, God already knows the fate of Bob Smith, so why even try to draw him to salvation? If God knows their fate, why not just use unbelievers for specific things since their purpose in life is cursed anyways..like building cars, computers or inventing medicine that heals..then send them to hell. Better yet, God should turn all unbelievers into doctors and people who make the world an easier place to live..then send them to hell. In the meanwhile, God's predestined children can live easy off of the technology, medicine and cars that the unbelievers have made. Since you know..God's children are not suppose to be of the world and be of the same mind as the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floatingaxe Posted October 1, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 9,613 Content Per Day: 1.45 Reputation: 656 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/31/1952 Share Posted October 1, 2013 God doesn't sit back and 'allow' people to deny Him! He is actively PURSUING them! People actively deny Him! But wouldn't God still be allowing people to deny him since God knows their fate anyways, or maybe God needs to work harder. haha. For example, God already knows the fate of Bob Smith, so why even try to draw him to salvation? If God knows their fate, why not just use unbelievers for specific things since their purpose in life is cursed anyways..like building cars, computers or inventing medicine that heals..then send them to hell. Better yet, God should turn all unbelievers into doctors and people who make the world an easier place to live..then send them to hell. In the meanwhile, God's predestined children can live easy off of the technology, medicine and cars that the unbelievers have made. Since you know..God's children are not suppose to be of the world and be of the same mind as the world. God isn't passively sitting back, allowing people to reject Him. You are speaking dangerously and adding a, "haha" to the end of it, which shows a disdain for the majesty and might of the Father. You are allowing your human logic to run amok, and may have to repent for daring to suggest what God should have done or should do. God isn't in the business of making this world an easier place to live. He created it to be a perfect and good place to live but mankind heeded the voice of Lucifer and gave Lucifer the power to run things. Your argument is tainted with his kind of flavour. You do not understand the reasoning behind the command to be in the world but not of the world. God has used many of His own to invent and to create wonders for the betterment of the world. After all, we are the salt of the Earth and the light of this world, because of Jesus Christ. You must ask Him your questions and be willing to wait and listen for God's answers...and then accept them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asper Posted October 1, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 226 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/26/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/15/1954 Share Posted October 1, 2013 That's how free will works. God created a mechanism for humans to reproduce. Most humans are reproduced as a will of their parents. Hi Hawkins, That reminds me of this verse. Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. God bless, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted October 3, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,069 Content Per Day: 7.97 Reputation: 21,395 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Online Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Whatever God wants = He gets. Lam 3:33 33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. KJV God's righteousness fills eternity... in His mercies we are set free to explore His Being of that righteousness. Yet in that same eternity He has no pleasure in the eternal keeping of His Wrath the lake of fire and those therein... Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 3, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.24 Reputation: 9,760 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 3, 2013 God's love is all this. He will endure the pain of being rejected because He will not seek His own will on man, but gave them the freedom to love Him. If God said "I will create only those who love me!", is He really loving His creation by forcing Himself on them? How would they know if they love God or not, since they had no choice in the matter. True love allows them to choose for themselves. You see, Bob had a lifetime to get to know God. Bob choose not to. Let me ask you this. Do you see God as an unloving God, or do you just not understand why He allows people to do something wrong? What does scripture say about creating all things, knowing all things, but allowing all things to come to pass. My debate is not that God doesn't force his will on people and that people have a choice. No, my debate is that if God already knows who is going to hell when he creates them in mothers womb then why create them. Why in the world would you create them if you know they will suffer in hell for eternity. Hell is hot and painful. (sigh) Why why why why!! I definitly see God as an all loving God who can only do good, but I just can't seem to get past the why. Why he creates unbelievers destined to hell. Again my debate is about God's omniscience. It's not that he allows people to do something wrong, but he ALREADY KNOWS they will not accept his salvation and will go to hell. He ALREADY KNOWS before he creates them. God's omniscience is a powerful thing!!! I see, you don't understand His plan and it is driving you nuts. I too have a list of questions I would like to ask Him and am saving them until we finally do meet, face to face. Until then, I live by faith and believe He knows a whole lot better than I do and my little mind could never comprehend the why's in His doing. All I can hold onto is that there is a very good reason and He will tell me one day. Welcome to the club! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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